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corepup
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 16:41    Post subject:  

hi flash

yes

the union file system is really trivial (as well as flawed)

wanderer
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 16:44    Post subject:  

greengeek wrote:
One other thing I REALLY REALLY want is a system that works forever - without having to constantly consider upgrading libraries etc to keep up with the big distros unless i want to.

I'm not suggesting backporting everything to GTK1 or similar - but I really do wish it was possible to do that. I don't like change.

This is possible with puppy up to some extent.. but the developers move on to next target... you need to duplicate a micko to keep slacko for slackware 13.13 (2011) up to date with current code and essential apps...

You need two more philb6666 to take care of xenial and 4 more for tahrpup, and other 4 more for precise and so on... this community relies on only person to do everything and expects wonders.

It's possible to support them all with people working for their target distro-version, updating the code base... that has never happened before and it's not likely to happen anyway.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 16:54    Post subject:  

that's one of the many advantages of this system

the core stays relatively unchanged
its default fltk rather than gtk1
but i use gtk1
the libraries are loaded independently
and are kept up to date by the tinycore guys
so all you have to do is choose which ones you want
in fact you can choose different ones each time you boot

i did this with a mod of puppy
but it was too much work to pull everything apart
i actually got down to a complete gtk1 system
but didn't have the expertise to pull apart firefox
everything here is already packaged
so it saves a ton of time and work
but you can modify it any way you want
the basics are pretty straightforward

wanderer

Last edited by wanderer on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 17:23; edited 1 time in total
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belham2

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 687

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 16:56    Post subject:  

Been a puppy user (Barry’s Precise) for about 6-7 years only for special purposes. Been a full time Linux user for about 3-4 years, ever since XP was getting near EOL. I’ve tried (and still use) a lot of Linux distros, from crazy hard Gentoo to somewhat easier Arch to grandmamas Ubuntu/Debian/Fedora all the way to the unbelievably simple, beautiful (but restrictive) Elementary OS. And, I’ve also been a Tinycore user, a few years running now (will come back to Tinycore in a minute).

10-12 months ago, I came here, looking to upgrade Barry’s Precise 5.7, and was floored at the wild diversity of puppies and pup-related distros. I thought: this is messed up?! Of course it immediately attracted me, lol. So I dove right in. I’ve now tried like 12-15 of these things, and they are just wild, unruly, beastie animals….but each is a beauty in its own way. What I mean is, every one of these things has something wrong with it. And I love ‘em for it. Why? I never knew how little I actually know about Linux overall until I got hit in the face with all these puppies.

With pups, there are always problems. Stuff never boots correctly, so had to learn about boot codes, grub, parameters, etc. When one does load, the desktop is sometimes quite screwed up, so had to learn about configuring display & desktop managers & how they interact with everything. Or, icons go missing or were never installed or linked to nothing, so had to learn about how to create links, .desktop files, etc. Wireless? Nooo way, it never works correctly, so had to learn about compiling. What's that program?? It crashes the pup when I start it. So, trying to get rid of crap programs causing problems, I had to learn about remastering. And on and on……..the nuts & bolts falling off these puppies is endless. In 10-12 months, I’ve gotten an education I would never have otherwise ever encountered.

But Tinycore? 10-12 months ago, I still loved it. Now? Today?? I hate Tinycore. Why? Everything always works with it. Nothing ever breaks down. No matter what I do to it, I cannot crash Tinycore (I proudly note every puppy and/or pup-related distro I’ve tried, I have crashed it---just fantastic!). But not Tinycore. The dam# thing is stable, so i hate it. Breakdown you Tiny piece of crap! Give me something to do!! In resignation, I usually shut it down, and grab one of the many pup SD cards I’ve lying around, boot that up, and go in, and something is usually happening (wrongly) right away with it....and at that moment, everything is right with the world once again. I feel calm, like an old friend, a drunkard, but still a friend, is sitting beside me.

I hope this all makes sense. If I wanted to drive a Honda all the time, I would use something like Tinycore forever. But I've now experienced what it is like to own and drive a Jaguar, albeit “used” Jaguars... but who cares, they (aka, the puppies) are still Jaguars. Sometimes they can’t even make it to the corner steet (a desktop screen) without breaking down, but I love them for it. And when they do run correctly, just like a Jaguar, what gawd darn beauties they are.

So, long live these beautifully f#cked-up puppy & pup-related creations, and I say this very affectionately. Thus, my vote, wanderer, while your idea is noble, it still stinks...hahahahha Very Happy Laughing

Last edited by belham2 on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 17:01; edited 1 time in total
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 17:00    Post subject:  

hey belham2

do what i do
think of something you want to change
then modify it until it breaks
and you have to try to fix it
great way to learn and have fun

wanderer
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Sailor Enceladus

Joined: 22 Feb 2016
Posts: 1080

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 19:49    Post subject:  

belham2 wrote:
With pups, there are always problems. Stuff never boots correctly, so had to learn about boot codes, grub, parameters, etc. When one does load, the desktop is sometimes quite screwed up, so had to learn about configuring display & desktop managers & how they interact with everything. Or, icons go missing or were never installed or linked to nothing, so had to learn about how to create links, .desktop files, etc. Wireless? Nooo way, it never works correctly, so had to learn about compiling. What's that program?? It crashes the pup when I start it. So, trying to get rid of crap programs causing problems, I had to learn about remastering. And on and on……..the nuts & bolts falling off these puppies is endless. In 10-12 months, I’ve gotten an education I would never have otherwise ever encountered.

But Tinycore? 10-12 months ago, I still loved it. Now? Today?? I hate Tinycore. Why? Everything always works with it. Nothing ever breaks down. No matter what I do to it, I cannot crash Tinycore (I proudly note every puppy and/or pup-related distro I’ve tried, I have crashed it---just fantastic!). But not Tinycore. The dam# thing is stable, so i hate it. Breakdown you Tiny piece of crap! Give me something to do!! In resignation, I usually shut it down, and grab one of the many pup SD cards I’ve lying around, boot that up, and go in, and something is usually happening (wrongly) right away with it....and at that moment, everything is right with the world once again. I feel calm, like an old friend, a drunkard, but still a friend, is sitting beside me.

Wireless didn't work for me in Tinycore, but it did in Puppy, same with everything else in Puppy, that's actually why I stuck with Puppy lol, maybe it was because my laptops were older Pentium M generation though (back around puppy420 to slacko56 I think). Wireless does not work any more with newest puppies though, but luckily I understand more now and know how to fix it (just install firmware-cut back into the kernel! yes). I guess YMMV, but my experience was pretty much the opposite of yours.
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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 4579
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 03:39    Post subject:  

jlst wrote:
.. but the developers move on to next target... you need to duplicate a micko to keep slacko for slackware 13.13 (2011) up to date with current code and essential apps....
But why is this the case? Lets say I find a recent app that I want to use - and lets say it wants a lib called "lixkbcommon.0.5.0" and it can't find it because it is a lib my pup never had.

What do I do?

How hard is it to do a "preload" and tell that program to find its lib in a special directory somewhere. Would any version of that lib be ok (if statically linked via "preload")? Does it take effort from 01micko to set up that preload? Or does it take someone to make a "static" version of that program?? Or does it need someone to recompile the appropriate lib on my version of puppy?

Perhaps all we need is more clarity around how to extend the life of what we know already works on our specific hardware.

I have a gut feeling that we could extend the life of each puppy (without bothering the devs) if we did the following:

1) Defined how to swap to a newer kernel
2) Explained how to add a new driver (module) into an older pup
3) Explained how to make a newer app run with newer libs, inside an older pup by using "static" methods or in fact any other method that works.

In the old days we just used to await a newer pup in order to support new hardware or programs but these days - where the big manufacturers actually WANT to make it hard for us to make Linux run on secondhand hardware - shouldn't we look for ways to AVOID swapping our pups? Shouldn't we ensure longevity of what we have already come to know?

Is it possible?
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Robert123

Joined: 20 May 2016
Posts: 276
Location: Pacific

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 03:57    Post subject:  

Hope it is greengeek because I'm sick in tired of Gtk3 bullshit and Pulse audio and all the other crap and what has been put forward here sounds very exciting. I will follow the thread with interest.
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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 1913
Location: Wisconsin USA

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 08:57    Post subject:  

Robert123 wrote:
Hope it is greengeek because I'm sick in tired of Gtk3 bullshit and Pulse audio and all the other crap and what has been put forward here sounds very exciting. I will follow the thread with interest.


I don't like pulseaudio or GTK3 too, but I think GTK3 is becoming more and more necessary to have as time goes on. As much as Slackware developers wanted to avoid pulseaudio, there just came a point when they didn't have much of a choice and they had to add it.

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3050
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 09:32    Post subject:  

Slackware added PulseAudio because with bluez5, the bluez team removed bluetooth support for ALSA. So you can't stream your music to an external bluetooth speaker anymore, unless you use pulseaudio.

But in reality, there are other ways to do it. I wrote an alternative way to stream sound to bluetooth external speaker that doesn't use the built-in ALSA driver in bluez4, and from comments I've received it's rather easy to port this to bluez5 too. With this, you can still have bluetooth streaming without pulseaudio, ever.

I guess nobody told alienbob about this.

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Quote:
But why is this the case? Lets say I find a recent app that I want to use - and lets say it wants a lib called "lixkbcommon.0.5.0" and it can't find it because it is a lib my pup never had.

What do I do?

How hard is it to do a "preload" and tell that program to find its lib in a special directory somewhere.

Easy, just put the path in /etc/ld.so.conf and then run "ldconfig". All the libs in the given path will be considered for use. Alternatively, add the path to LD_LIBRARY_PATH and you're good to go too.

Quote:
Would any version of that lib be ok

The version that is "ok" is the version that is required by the app you want to use (that depends on that lib). Headache starts when program #1 require libs version 5 and program #2 require libs version 6; this is when you need to get creative and make use LD_LIBRARY_PATH for program #1 includes the dir that contains lib version 5; and LD_LIBRARY_PATH for program #2 includes the dir that contains lib version 6.

Quote:
(if statically linked via "preload")?

Pedantic: you link anything that is an .so using either ld.so.conf or LD_LIBRARY_PATH above, it's "dynamic" and not "static".

I have a gut feeling that we could extend the life of each puppy (without bothering the devs) if we did the following:

Quote:
1) Defined how to swap to a newer kernel

Easy on the newer puppies with support for "huge" kernel, just get the pair of vmlinuz and zdrv.sfs (I think) that contains the kernel modules/firmware and you're good to go.

Quote:
2) Explained how to add a new driver (module) into an older pup

Difficult if nobody has the modules compiled for you, you'll need to compile it yourself and while there is a standard instruction on how to do it, it doesn't always work (esp. proprietary modules are prone to use their own "build script").

If somebody already compiled a module for you, it's a matter of putting that module to /lib/modules/kernel-version/misc and run "depmod -a". Sometimes, you also need to blacklist an existing module (that supports the same hardware as your new moduel); sometimes you also need to add a new firmware - path depends on the hardware but generally it lives in /lib/firmware.

Quote:
3) Explained how to make a newer app run with newer libs, inside an older pup by using "static" methods or in fact any other method that works.
Not straightforward. LD_PRELOAD is your friend, but if you need a new glibc then you're not toast. Well, not exactly toast, but either you have to update glibc or you just tricks like the on described in my wiki.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 09:54    Post subject:  

thats the advantage of using tinycore as a base

it takes into account both old and new hardware

it is being actively updated

its modular so you can use only what you want

its easy to work on

its only one iso/base so our efforts can be focused

the core is very small so it can be downloaded easily

it has the same philosophy as puppy

and can be easily puppified

its not taking away from puppy but adding to it

i think it should be added to the puppy universe

and thats what i am doing

think about it

wanderer
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watchdog

Joined: 28 Sep 2012
Posts: 1342
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 10:40    Post subject:  

I just use any puppy as a complete standalone and static distro which I can change for my needs just installing a savefile or using an adrv.sfs for recent puppies and without care for woof-ce building process (too complex for me). Changing the main sfs is another option to build a base puppy without using the "remove builtin packages" menu item. You can add to the main sfs few softwares without going through remaster. In the past I tried tinycore: I was not greatly satisfied for the "cloud" philosophy. I like puppy just as it is. Now I am still using puppy4 with great satisfaction with some glibc tweaking.
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 11:44    Post subject:  

Hi wanderer,

What's wrong with Debian Live/Debian Dog? We have already accumulated some collective knowledge and expertise in that area. Why not expand on what we already have? Me thinks this chain "Debian/Devuan/Ubuntu et friends" is a much more feasible option for the next generation Puppy as opposed to TC.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 13:10    Post subject:  

hi anikin

great to hear from you

yes its a very good system
as are the old and new puppies

but i am worried about structure and support

it has to be very easy to modify
so that lesser mortals (like me) can play with it
debian is harder to mod than tinycore

and it has to have smarter guys supporting it
because dumb guys (like me) cant do very much
all the puppy geniuses have their own thing
and don't have time to work on a community project
but tinycore has ongoing support and updates
so we can rely on that to keep it going

in addition tinycore has a branch called dcore
that supports debian
and maybe that can tie in with debian-dog

so for me tinycore seems like a good all round option
and then when its puppified
it should benefit both distros

oh by the way the core file in tinycore
is really the same as puppys main sfs file

the tcz files in tinycore are really the same
as puppys sfs files

and the home file in tinycore is really the same
as puppys save file

the same philosophy and
pretty much the same (conceptual) structure


wanderer
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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 4579
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep 2016, 14:18    Post subject:  

wanderer wrote:
the core is very small so it can be downloaded easily

it has the same philosophy as puppy

and can be easily puppified

its not taking away from puppy but adding to it

In what specific ways would it be puppified? What actually defines a puppy?
It used to require the rox/jwm combo. Is that still the case (in BKs eyes?) and would that translate to TC?
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