corepup

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wanderer
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat 20 Oct 2007, 23:17

#31 Post by wanderer »

tinycore has the jwm rox2 option
as well as
abiword geany leafpad (i put in gtkedit and e3)
emelfm1 and emelfm2
firefox and firefoxESR
vlc
viewnoir
busybox ash bash
gcc tcc
nasm
etc
most of the basic stuff in puppy

but what really makes a puppy
is the involvement of the puppy community
its their creative and innovative input
puppy has taken many forms over the years
but its the people and ideas that make it unique
this is just a great base for a new version of puppy (and tinycore)

wanderer

backi
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sun 27 Feb 2011, 22:00
Location: GERMANY

#32 Post by backi »

Cool rant,,,,, wanderer :lol: :lol: :lol: !!!

This is quite motivating.....,,,,, so,,.. keep on rocking!! ...

wanderer
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat 20 Oct 2007, 23:17

#33 Post by wanderer »

so here is the deal guys

who's up for making a community edition of puppy
starting with a tinycore base

if you want to follow this
post a comment on this thread
and say hi

the first step is to go to the tinycore site
download the iso and read (as much as you want to)
of the the documentation

then come back to this thread and post you thoughts and ideas

all are welcome
remember everyone is part of our community
do not be afraid
if an idiot like me can figure this out
anyone can

see you all soon

wanderer

backi
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sun 27 Feb 2011, 22:00
Location: GERMANY

#34 Post by backi »

I am no Linux-Puppy expert ....just a bloody beginner ..... so i can not contribute much to that experiment... except testing .

...but i like your proposal....
it sounds new and fresh and enthusiastic.

I think this is somehow the meaning of ,let me call it ... "Puppy Spirit ".
The Power of the Puppy Community .

Thumbs up !

wanderer
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat 20 Oct 2007, 23:17

#35 Post by wanderer »

backi

great to have you with us

you do us great honor by being the first to join

thanks for your support

wanderer

oui

Puppy is, simply, ill since a lot of time...

#36 Post by oui »

wanderer, not angry, Puppy is ill.

see pls what did happen with the LazY generation...

nobody did see that it is the most modern Linux concept at all.

nobody did help Rainer to transmit his great knowledge to some kind of «woof»

we get absurd variants of Puppy one after the next, but you can not any more build a powerful complete environment with Puppy because the tree of Puppy variants is to big and the errors are never eradicated...

BK did in the past specify in tutors what is the way.

this GREAT tools is now old and not directly applicable to new versions, so that new and young users like baki seems to be have major difficulties to enter the system.

The last Puppy base (in the past named "onebone" or so!) starting as iso really for use in RAM? It is a long time...

wanderer
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat 20 Oct 2007, 23:17

#37 Post by wanderer »

oui

i just realized what you are saying

yes there are many variants
and much work seems to get lost
but i really dont think one size can fit all

i tried a lot of the variants and none of them worked on my system
in fact everything after 217 that Barry K made
did not work well for me

ttuuxx's TOP 9 worked great for many years
but then the browser got out of date

i tried to use woof and actually built 3 distros
but each took a whole day and had stuff missing at the end
and i couldnt tell what was happening because it was all automated

i dont think a giant program to build everything is the way to go

the idea of linux is many small pieces
that can be put together in an infinite number of ways

it took me a day to understand tinycore
and a couple of minutes to modify it

until the woof-ce guys make a program
to transparently builds a minimal base
and then adds things incrementally
most people will not be able to use it
or even figure it out

until then tinycore fits the bill

in fact tinycore is actually a better design
because i feel the union file thing is a flaw

as to how many people need to be involved in each project
to make it a success the answer is 1
and for this project
that person is me
and now i have backi to annoy

however
it would be nice if you gave us your input
because you possess great expertise in this area

hope to hear from you soon

wanderer
Last edited by wanderer on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 01:25, edited 2 times in total.

Sailor Enceladus
Posts: 1543
Joined: Mon 22 Feb 2016, 19:43

Re: Puppy is, simply, ill since a lot of time...

#38 Post by Sailor Enceladus »

wanderer wrote:so here is the deal guys

who's up for making a community edition of puppy
starting with a tinycore base
So you mean like Slacko and Tahr, but with Tinycore repositories instead? Or does tinycore use repositories from somewhere else? I'm very confused by what you're even asking. Puppy is the base, what would go on top if you use tiny "core"? I looked at the tinycore page and it said the version with wireless was now 106MB, but the one without is 16MB. Where's the logic in that?
oui wrote:we get absurd variants of Puppy one after the next, but you can not any more build a powerful complete environment with Puppy because the tree of Puppy variants is to big and the errors are never eradicated...
I don't know any "absurd variants" and they generally don't have any big errors. Sounds like an empty rant based on nothing.

wanderer
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat 20 Oct 2007, 23:17

#39 Post by wanderer »

hi sailor

tinycore has its own repositories of tcz extensions
and its members build them
like puppys sfs files

dcore uses debian repositories
which are made into tcz
(in this case they are called sce)

the core is very small
but as you add stuff of course things get bigger

its not the final size that matters
since everyone will determine what they want

what matters is that the core is very small and simple
and the additions are modular
so that every piece can be built and maintained
in a straight forward manner

what i am suggesting is that everyone who is interested
go to the tinycore site
download the iso and play with it
and then post on this thread their ideas and observations

i have made 3 tcz which are sfs files
its very easy to do

any puppy sfs or pet could be made into a tcz file
and then used in tinycore
also the core can be modified and puppy stuff can be added there

its also important that this be a community project
and anyone can participate
by modifying something
or just adding their opinion
otherwise i would never have started this thread
and would have just done this on my own

I look forward to hear from everyone who is interested

wanderer

backi
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sun 27 Feb 2011, 22:00
Location: GERMANY

#40 Post by backi »

Hi wanderer !
I think there is a lot of truth in oui`s comment above .Especially regarding Rainers Lazy Puppy.

I dont see your efforts and what you are saying so negative as Sailor Encladus reply to oui`s comment about " absurd Puppy variants ".
It is not meant to degrade other puppies or the work of other people here.... i know .......i see this more as a bit of "provokation" to stimulate people to get off their asses ....and do experimenting in a new direction ( as these guys from Debian Dog and Mint Dog project did .My deepest respect for them).The main problem with DebDog and MintDog..... is.... they almost work perfect .
So i am looking for something new ...a new day ...a new challenge .

Puppi is a work in progress .
I have to use my "intuition " my seventh sense somehow ..because of a lack of technical understanding....your ideas are just alerting my " senses ".
Maybe what you achieve to do will fail somehow .But it has some pioneer spirit .
You have a lot of arguments ....i am not the One to prove them wrong or right .
But one thing is for sure ......no one can accuse you of " you did not even try "
Nevertheless ...Puppy community and Forum i think is the best of them all .Best people ,best support ,first class ... i really like it .
There are some interesting experiments going on from rufwoof in his project
making Debian or Ubuntu frugal and to puppify them .
Have a look here :
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107753

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mavrothal
Posts: 3096
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#41 Post by mavrothal »

wanderer wrote: the core is very small
but as you add stuff of course things get bigger

its not the final size that matters
since everyone will determine what they want

what matters is that the core is very small and simple
and the additions are modular
so that every piece can be built and maintained
in a straight forward manner
<snip>
i have made 3 tcz which are sfs files
its very easy to do
wanderer,
What do you think is wrong with tinycore as it is right now?
What do you think puppy can add to it that official tinycore is not interested in/objects to adding?

Please be specific because even at your 3rd (4th?) thread calling for a "puppycore" I still can not understand.
Please do not tell us how you envision puppy will be different.
Tell us how you imagine tinycore to be different after successful completion of such a project.
== [url=http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]Here is how to solve your[/url] [url=https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html]Linux problems fast[/url] ==

anikin
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu 10 May 2012, 06:16

#42 Post by anikin »

Something big is happening here. The closest historical analogy pales in comparison. I mean the one about an ancient tribe wandering in the wilderness for 40 years ... eating locusts and wild honey.
Let my people go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A07tDouATcE
Very impressive.

backi
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sun 27 Feb 2011, 22:00
Location: GERMANY

#43 Post by backi »

Hi mavrothal !
" Tell us how you imagine tinycore to be different after successful completion of such a project."
I think your questions are legit .But asking for a final result ....?
Let see it as an new idea ,could be a seed for a possible experiment....
Wanderer just invites people to join in and share their knowledge and ideas .
That`s legit too .
Maybe it does not work .
But one thing is for sure ......no one can accuse him of " he did not even try "

Hi wanderer !
Did install Tiny Core Plus to a USB Stick and start playing with it.
To explain what i am looking for :

A small core -no or only a few apps installed -working for absolute beginners.
I am very interested in- not installing Programms-Apps ----instead loading them on demand like in Puppie`s sfs load to keep the core basically untouched (if possible) externalizing drivers and apps outside the base (if possible) .
The approach is somehow modular ....brick by brick .
Last edited by backi on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 08:31, edited 1 time in total.

Robert123
Posts: 362
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Location: Pacific

#44 Post by Robert123 »

Dependencies install to /usr/local eg /usr/local/lib so in an old pup to make an updated package use the updated glibc from inycore because it installs to a different path than Puppy - useful been trying it in Guydog.
Devuan Linux, Stardust 013 (4.31) updated [url]https://archive.org/details/Stardustpup013glibc2.10[/url]
s57(2018)barebone[url]https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppy-linux-minimal-builds/files/s57%282018%29barebones.iso/download[/url]

gcmartin

#45 Post by gcmartin »

I really shouldn't comment here. This subject repeats in Puppy history.

What I see, though, it almost a divide between those with knowledge and those who use the productions of those with knowledge.

I have always understood the intent of the WOOF series. I have seen other system builders from other distros that do creditable jobs in generating Linux systems for users and have used 2. They work too. SUSE is one that stood out as I remember.

The discussion which repeat in this forum is one of what should a PUP base be. Dont quote me, but, I can see why @BarryK stepped out of the forum. It is difficult to appease the many opposing views that member have especially when we consider the many "opposing" skills that members have, not to mention the many languages, the many personalities, the many ...

So here we are again questioning what a starting point should be like and what it should look like.

Here's one view: In present day PUPs, experienced users can remove anything they dislike. They have this skillset and it is also built into PUPs base structure. So, experience user should have no problem in disassembly. New Windows/Apple users who are looking to try or use Linux as a replacement desktop do not have these skills. As such, a distro like several of the ones here in Puppyland which bring a lot of functionality are the ones most helpful to them. It allows them to have similar subsystems they are used to (SAMBA for example), use multimedia they are used to, have Languages they are used to, interact with the internet in ways they are used to, etc.

Modern PUPs achieve what Barry sort: A replacement platform for Windows users that is simple easy and straight-forward. without being left behind as technology and platforms change.

I think, that this thread could really benefit by, first, addressing WHO THEY WANT TO USE what the thread's title suggests. This is the real issue, IMHO because I have seen so many different members with "opposing" views of who distros should be developed for.

The size thing, is one of those things which is stuck in past views many cannot shake. In reality I believe given a choice new and young members getting started would much prefer to establish a learning curve on a robust system versus one that is not. This is in view that most of us will select an assembled PC versus taking all the parts and going home to assemble everything into a working unit, especially, in light of all the things that could go wrong. Assembly differs from person to person, but, given an assemble unit the game starts there and moves forward.

I have work with a lot of very very smart people. They have the same problems we have. 1 year after writing code, they cannot remember what or how they did it. Thus, to go back, is a reset requiring them to start over in understanding. I think most of us can identify with this as it affect everyone of us.

So, for this thread, who are we trying to rebuild for? Then how should it look? Should it combine where PUPPY is today? Or should it be a reset and start all over again?

Remember 2 things: When things do change (and they will), somewhere down the road we will have this discussion again. And in today's world, lets stop talking about size. Its an irrelevant discussion that have been around kicked about since before S/360 (yes I was around before then). Yet, in just my lifetime you cannot possibly imagine the size changes I have seen in just the technology space and the reactions from colleagues on size. It took me a decade to realize this and to come to grips that size increases for our benefit. Mankind's brain size seemingly is continuing to grow as well and who knows, 2000 years from now, will our brains be double in size?

One way of looking at where we are is to understand that WOOFCE is a "fork" for producing today's modern PUPs. With this thread, it could be conceived to be asking for something similar. If so, it will have to managed somehow and GIT may still be found to be the best way.

I will ride the wave no matter which direction it takes, as long as it is beneficial in both scope and use.

backi
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Location: GERMANY

#46 Post by backi »

Some sophisticated arguments .

bark_bark_bark
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Location: Wisconsin USA

#47 Post by bark_bark_bark »

Most puppy users want a distro that just works right of the box, tinycore does not offer that in any shape or form.
....

wanderer
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Joined: Sat 20 Oct 2007, 23:17

#48 Post by wanderer »

hi mavrothal

thanks for posting
and thanks for all the work you
(and the other puppy geniuses)
have done for puppy

you guys do a fantastic job
but you are too smart for dumb guys like me
i need something small and simple to use and study
the creation you have made can only be used by smart guys
so that leaves me out

in addition tinycore has a lot of good ideas
that i think should be considered and adopted by puppy

my plan is to add to (and modify if appropriate) tinycore
until it serves the needs of dumb puppy community guys like me
we could do it as a community project
so even other guys like me (or even smart guys) can participate

the specific changes should begin with

1. porting puppy sfs files to tcz files
so that the beautiful and clever work that has been done for puppy
can be used in the tinycore base

2. adding to and modifying the the core so that is does puppy things
for example modifying how the save functions work
or replacing fltk with gtk1 apps
or putting in some pretty puppy stuff
this could be made as a boot option
so that it would stay compatible with the standard tinycore
because we want to have access to the ongoing support

3. adding to the boot options so that it will boot into a full system
without the early stages so that it will be more convenient
and easier to use for newbies

there is a lot more that can be done
and the way this system is structured allows easy access


yes this topic has come up many times before
but the problem in the past has been

1. not having a simple system to use and develop
2. not having smart guys to help keep it updated

you guys are too busy
and are not interested
in working on a small simple modular system

so tinycore fits the bill as a starting point

it just fills a need in the puppy universe
that i think has not been addressed


hope to hear from you again
best wishes

wanderer

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mavrothal
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#49 Post by mavrothal »

wanderer wrote: my plan is to add to (and modify if appropriate) tinycore
until it serves the needs of dumb puppy community guys like me
we could do it as a community project
so even other guys like me (or even smart guys) can participate
I would suggest start doing it
when in trouble ask for specific help for each specific issue.

Moding tinycore is not very difficult.

Download and extract the core
Modify what you would like
Download the extensions you want
Add some of your own (including puppy stuff)
package everything to a tarball/iso with an onboot.lst
>> you have a custom tinycore!

Here is an example that could serve as a guide for the process (some scripting understanding is required)
== [url=http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]Here is how to solve your[/url] [url=https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html]Linux problems fast[/url] ==

wanderer
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Joined: Sat 20 Oct 2007, 23:17

#50 Post by wanderer »

mavrothal

thanks very much for you input and support
great to hear from you

i have already done a lot of work with tinycore

built the system in many different ways
built tcz
modified the core
read the scripts
etc

i think to start
rather than post isos
i will post instructions on how to build things

this weekend i will try to post the instructions
on how i set things up

and then maybe
on how to build an appliance version of tinycore
that is one that has all the applications already in the iso
this should be more familiar and more convenient
than the cloud method to puppy users

thanks again

wanderer

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