Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Sun 22 Oct 2017, 08:08
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Puppy as Primary Operating System
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 3 of 4 [58 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Do you think Puppy is a good choice to save this old machine?
YES
100%
 100%  [ 24 ]
NO
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 24

Author Message
hollipl

Joined: 03 Oct 2016
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 14:12    Post subject:  

rufwoof wrote:
mikeslr wrote:
As you have 1 Gb of RAM and can run Tahrpup easily, there is no advantage if you chose a Full Install. One of the disadvantages of a Full install is that applications you install --and crap you acquired while surfing the web-- will automatically be written to your hard-drive.

Hollipl only has 512MB Mike. For a full install you ideally need at least a GB I'd say. 512MB would work provided you had a swap file/partition ... but would tend to be slowed down by swapping to/from disk.
Quote:
With a Frugal Install, you can set Tahrpup up to only write to your hard-drive on command

Except in some cases, such as when you load a PET and it uses the 'save' space as a work area.

The way I run Debian LXDE is I installed grub4dos, created a empty partition and use that partition for everything, grub4dos (menu.lst, grldr), the main filesystem (filesystem.squashfs) and as the save folder (partition). Nothing preventing that also being the location of a swap file either ... such as creating/activating a 1GB swapfile :

dd if=/dev/zero of=swapfile bs=1M count=1024
mkswap swapfile
swapon swapfile

You have to set that partition as being bootable such as in gparted, and also give it a partition LABEL of 'persistence' (without the quotes).

For the Debian LXDE I use I downloaded a CD from here http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current-live/ that includes non-free firmware, in my case selecting the amd64 folder choice as my PC is 64 bit (use the i386 folder is 32 bit) http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current-live/ select the iso-hybrid sub-directory and ... pick one. I went for the ....lxde-desktop+nonfree.iso type file to download.

Once downloaded then you need to extract the live folder from that iso to the HDD partition alongside grldr and menu.lst (grub4dos installed files).

Then its just a matter of editing menu.lst to use that, something like

title Debian Jessie Frugal RO
find --set-root /live/filesystem.squashfs
kernel /live/vmlinuz boot=live config nofastboot persistence persistence-read-only persistence-label=persistence quickreboot noprompt showmounts live-media-path=/live/ config rw
initrd /live/initrd.img

A second boot choice of booting read/write so all changes are recorded requires only the persistence-read-only boot parameter to be removed

title Debian Jessie Frugal RW
find --set-root /live/filesystem.squashfs
kernel /live/vmlinuz boot=live config nofastboot persistence persistence-label=persistence quickreboot noprompt showmounts live-media-path=/live/ config rw
initrd /live/initrd.img

Taking that a step further, you can extract all of the filesystem.squashfs to the save 'folder' i.e extract all of filesystem.squashfs to the / folder. You can't do that directly so first you extract to a new/empty folder and then move everything in that folder up to the root folder

cd live
unsquashfs -d tempfolder filesystem.squashfs

... and then open tempfolder in a filemanager window, ensure all files including hiddenfiles are highlighted/selected and drag/drop those to another window showing the / folder and 'MOVE'. tempfolder is then left empty and can be deleted.

With everything in the 'save folder' there's no further need for filesystem.squashfs so that can be deleted, but best to create a empty one in its place otherwise that could prevent sfs's from being loaded.

cd live
rm filesystem.squashfs
mkdir tmp
mksquashfs tmp filesystem.squashfs
rmdir tmp

With that further step you in effect have a full install that can be booted like a frugal where changes aren't preserved on disk, just recorded in memory .... which runs a lot faster. Or you can boot it read/write where all changes are preserved as and when made.

The final step is to adjust from using /live/initrd and /live/vmlinuz boot files to using sym links to those in /boot ... as that way any Debian kernel updates will be correctly installed/used. i.e. create initrd.img and vmlinuz as sym-links to the initrd and vmlinuz files (with longer file names that indicate the version numbers) in /boot and adjust menu.lst to use those sym-links

title Debian Jessie Frugal RO
find --set-root /live/filesystem.squashfs
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live config nofastboot persistence persistence-read-only persistence-label=persistence quickreboot noprompt showmounts live-media-path=/live/ config rw
initrd /initrd.img

title Debian Jessie Frugal RW
find --set-root /live/filesystem.squashfs
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live config nofastboot persistence persistence-label=persistence quickreboot noprompt showmounts live-media-path=/live/ config rw
initrd /initrd.img

Instead of the RW boot choice above, I've set mine to chain to the Debian boot loader, which I installed from within Debian

title Debian FULL Install RW filesys must be extracted (/boot/grub/menu.lst)
find --set-root /boot/grub/menu.lst
configfile /boot/grub/menu.lst
commandline

So no different to a full install ... except that its booted via grub4dos that chains to it. I use that choice to run updates, that otherwise might exceed available memory space i.e. written to disk as soon as changes made. Slow, but used relatively infrequently. For the rest of time I use the RO boot choice (faster), but where no changes are recorded. However you can link from that read only layer to the main save folder, for example I created a /Documents-Persistent folder and once booted I created a sym link to that from within /home/user folder, so that I have a Documents, Picture ....etc where changes are lost after reboot, but also a Documents-Persistent folder where any changes within that are preserved across reboots.

I also have a script that I can run that's very similar (a adjusted version of) snapmergepuppy, so I can flush all changes in a RO session to disk to preserve them simply by running that script.

If you only use programs from Debian repository and perform updates periodically i.e. in a terminal running as root

apt-get update
apt-get upgrade

then you'll have a very stable installation that keeps up to date, that in the above case can be booted read only so you can try out things and not save them ...etc.

Don't forget to set a root password i.e.

sudo passwd root

and enter a password of your own choice (you have to enter it twice).

Debian runs by default as 'user' not as 'root' which is safer, especially if you run a browser. LXDE is nice in that respect as its file manager pcmanfm includes a right click menu option to open a folder in a root based window. Which at first seems a bit weird to do after using puppy, but soon becomes more natural instinct.

I suspect that with a swap file created/used of perhaps 1GB size, Hollipl could have that running ok on that laptop. Can't say for sure as mine has 2GB (more than enough such that I don't even need to allocate a swap file/partition).

You can still load sfs's with that (when booted RO only) simply by dropping them into the /live folder. Any files with .squashfs suffix will get loaded at bootup in alphanumeric order. Or if you create a filesystem.module file in that /live folder then only the .squashfs files listed in that file will get loaded at bootup, in the order specified in that file. Personally I don't bother as its just as easy for me to load/unload stuff using Synaptic (from the Debian repository).

For completeness my /usr/local/bin/flush2disk script is attached below, which of course needs to be made executable in order to run. Other than that script the rest of my installation is pure Debian. Around 4GB in total space used (no swap file included) which I have installed on a 15GB partition.

Best of all worlds IMO. Stable repository with security updates quick to come through. And can boot frugal style where changes aren't recorded, except if you want them to be. And runs quicker as changes are recorded in memory instead of to disk. But can be booted to the equivalent of a fully installed Debian (which reminds me another change you should make is make the repositories inspected be a wider range i.e. /etc/apt/sources.list should look like

###### Debian Main Repos
deb http://ftp.uk.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free

###### Security
deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free

If you intend to compile stuff then you should add the sources (src) to that e.g. maybe a sources.list content of :

deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main
deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main



rufwoof,

That actually sounds amazing! it doesn't sound too terribly complicated, but i would probably still want someone to walk me thru it a little bit more indepth, tho it definately is not out of my skill range at the moment. The system you were describing would be almost perfect to get maximum use out of this old machines specs. I can be reached by adding @outlook.com to my username and sending an email :] perhaps you could walk me through a little bit on an instant messenger or skype? at the moment I'm running tahrpup with xcfe FULL install, and whenever I use an application i'm forcing any saved files to goto the 48 gig partition by browsing to such location.. etc.

This is my first real dive into puppy, and I knew that it had plenty of power to setup such a system as you were describing I just didn't know where to start to get my hands dirty. I migrated recently from Bunsen labs because someone had abandoned the repos and I kept getting KEY ERRORS all over the place installing things from command line, so then I was tracking down package files in the web browser to satisfy dependances and It was just a mess Sad

Last edited by hollipl on Wed 05 Oct 2016, 14:16; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
foxpup


Joined: 29 Jul 2016
Posts: 238
Location: europa near northsea

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 14:14    Post subject:  

Semme wrote:
Try "pupx" from a shell.


@hollipl: try this for your blank screen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
hollipl

Joined: 03 Oct 2016
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 14:18    Post subject:  

foxpup wrote:
Semme wrote:
Try "pupx" from a shell.


@hollipl: try this for your blank screen



foxpup,
I ran pupx from shell, disabled the check by screensaver enabled, and put 0 in the timeout seconds box, and will now wait to see if it still turns off.
Code:
root# xset q
Keyboard Control:
  auto repeat:  on    key click percent:  0    LED mask:  00000000
  XKB indicators:
    00: Caps Lock:   off    01: Num Lock:    off    02: Scroll Lock: off
    03: Shift Lock:  off    04: Group 2:     off    05: Mouse Keys:  off
  auto repeat delay:  500    repeat rate:  20
  auto repeating keys:  00ffffffdffffbbf
                        fadfffdfffdfe5ef
                        ffffffffffffffff
                        ffffffffffffffff
  bell percent:  50    bell pitch:  400    bell duration:  100
Pointer Control:
  acceleration:  20/10    threshold:  4
Screen Saver:
  prefer blanking:  yes    allow exposures:  yes
  timeout:  0    cycle:  600
Colors:
  default colormap:  0x20    BlackPixel:  0x0    WhitePixel:  0xffffff
Font Path:
  /usr/share/X11/fonts/misc/,/usr/share/X11/fonts/TTF/,built-ins
DPMS (Energy Star):
  Standby: 600    Suspend: 600    Off: 600
  DPMS is Disabled
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 3045
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 14:57    Post subject:  

Hallo, hollipl.

With regard to your screen 'timeout' issue, there's an easy way to adjust this. Go to Menu>Desktop>pupx set properties of x. This will enable you to adjust timeout, screen-saver, mouse acceleration, keyboard adjustments, etc, etc.

As Mikeslr says, you will not find a /home partition/folder in Puppy. This is a peculiarity mainly of the Debian/Ubuntu-based distros, which are primarily multi-user systems. Every 'user' has their own /home folder, and nobody is allowed to run as root, except very temporarily. Puppy is primarily a single-user system, and always runs as root. Many Linux users (some of long-standing) are absolutely horrified by this..!

You may find this interesting:-

http://barryk.org/puppylinux/technical/root.htm

...an explanation by the Puppy Master himself, Barry Kauler.

Hope that helps a wee bit. I originally ran Tahrpup myself, on a 14 yr-old Dell Inspiron laptop, which now has a 2.6 GHz P4, 1 GB of RAM, and a 64GB SSD. It ran flawlessly.


Mike. Wink

_________________
If I've helped you.....please say 'Thanks'!
MY PUPPY PACKAGES
--------------------------------------

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
foxpup


Joined: 29 Jul 2016
Posts: 238
Location: europa near northsea

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 15:08    Post subject:  

hollipl wrote:

foxpup,
I ran pupx from shell, disabled the check by screensaver enabled, and put 0 in the timeout seconds box, and will now wait to see if it still turns off.


Okay.
I thought you missed Semmes post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
poorguy


Joined: 13 Nov 2015
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 15:35    Post subject:  

"Puppy's Philosophy: FEAR NOT ROOT!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 3045
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 15:59    Post subject:  

poorguy wrote:
"Puppy's Philosophy: FEAR NOT ROOT!"


^^^ +1, old son. Touchè..!


Mike. Wink

_________________
If I've helped you.....please say 'Thanks'!
MY PUPPY PACKAGES
--------------------------------------

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Semme


Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 7775
Location: World_Hub

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 16:01    Post subject:  

Classified under "Developers" distro. And we're all one of those, right? Very HappyWink
_________________
>>> Living with the immediacy of death helps you sort out your priorities. It helps you live a life less trivial <<<
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 3045
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2016, 17:00    Post subject:  

Hey, Semme.

I'm just thinking, now: that avatar of yours ain't a self-portrait, is it? Seems quite appropriate for someone who spends a lot of his time 'yanking my lead' (*groan*)

Sorry; couldn't resist that. And don't take it the wrong way, please..! Laughing Very Happy Shocked


Mike. Wink

_________________
If I've helped you.....please say 'Thanks'!
MY PUPPY PACKAGES
--------------------------------------

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2148

PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2016, 04:44    Post subject:  

hollipl wrote:
...I just didn't know where to start to get my hands dirty....

Grab a livecd and boot from that, start here https://www.debian.org/CD/live/ reading through the detailed guides https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual ... and use that livecd to install a full install to a HDD partition which is relatively simple/painless. Boot and setup that full install ... and then use that full install as a 'save' folder (partition) content and overlay a frugal (livecd style) boot. Which in effect distils own to creating a /live folder in addition to the fully installed files/folders, allocating the partition a 'persistence' label using the likes of gparted or fdisk and adding grub4dos with an appropriate menu.lst that boots either that full install or the frugal choice.

The /live folder can be empty - as everything is in effect stored in the savefolder (partition). Personally I copy the /live folder from the liveCD to /live on HDD and just empty the filesystem.squashfs content as that's redundant (everything is stored in the 'save file' (partition)).

The big difference between full and frugal is that instead of writing all changes to disk as they occur as with full, with frugal all changes are recorded in (faster) memory. The system will also do a reasonable job of disk-caching so the first time you load a program may be slower (as its read from disk) than the second time you run it assuming it has remained in cache. The downside is that it doesn't preserve changes ... unless you manually flush those to disk (as per my earlier script). Another downside is that if changes exceed available memory space it will lock up. So large updates or program installations are better performed using the (slower to run) Full installed boot choice.

As a example, Installed that way to a USB stick and there is a massive difference between the operational speed of the full version and the frugal version. Frugal runs as fast as a HDD version as slower USB writes aren't being used, just writes to memory. Only if you flush those memory recorded changes to 'disk' (USB) does the slow write operation become apparent.

With the likes of Tahr puppy the aim is to create a small total filesystem that can all be loaded into ram at bootup, which caters for the boot medium then being ejected (no longer needed because its all in ram). With the above there's a large amount of files/data, but that's on HDD and parts of that are read in as-when required and can be swapped in/out as the system determines best. So whilst 'large' much of that wont be read anyway, mostly just there just in case its needed (foreign locale's, doc's ....etc). Reading everything into ram at bootup is slower to bootup, but quicker thereafter compared to reading stuff in as/when required. The latter is also makes more efficient use of memory space, by only reading in what is required/when it is required, not the entire filesystem ... which will contain programs/libs that aren't even used during a session.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Semme


Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 7775
Location: World_Hub

PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2016, 09:51    Post subject:  

Nah Mike, I don't smoke but I'm more cat than dog.

My ears aren't quite as tattered either. Still, I think it's hilarious!

Years ago there was a wise-ass on this board I know who sported this av.. Mr. Green
yank_mw.jpg
 Description   
 Filesize   21.95 KB
 Viewed   210 Time(s)

yank_mw.jpg


_________________
>>> Living with the immediacy of death helps you sort out your priorities. It helps you live a life less trivial <<<
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 2897
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2016, 11:08    Post subject:  

Ive learned a lot about Linux by rooting around in Puppy!!
_________________
"Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush" - T Pratchett
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
foxpup


Joined: 29 Jul 2016
Posts: 238
Location: europa near northsea

PostPosted: Fri 07 Oct 2016, 09:19    Post subject:  

rufwoof wrote:
With the above there's a large amount of files/data, but that's on HDD and parts of that are read in as-when required and can be swapped in/out as the system determines best. So whilst 'large' much of that wont be read anyway, mostly just there just in case its needed (foreign locale's, doc's ....etc).

Hi rufwoof

I've been reading your posts here with much interest.
I still wonder about some things.

The above, that debian reads in as-when required, is this typically debian/major distro? Do you have to tell it to do so?

My second question is why you move the /live/filesystem.squashfs to /filesystem? What does it change?

Thirdly a remark. The easy update/upgrade mechanism in debian can cause problems on older computers, if the update/upgrade puts bigger demands on the machine. For example, I have SSE, not SSE2. If an upgrade involves a program moving towards SSE2, I will have a fall-out for that program after upgrade. Use with caution!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2148

PostPosted: Fri 07 Oct 2016, 10:27    Post subject:  

foxpup wrote:
rufwoof wrote:
With the above there's a large amount of files/data, but that's on HDD and parts of that are read in as-when required and can be swapped in/out as the system determines best. So whilst 'large' much of that wont be read anyway, mostly just there just in case its needed (foreign locale's, doc's ....etc).

Hi rufwoof

I've been reading your posts here with much interest.
I still wonder about some things.

The above, that debian reads in as-when required, is this typically debian/major distro? Do you have to tell it to do so?

My second question is why you move the /live/filesystem.squashfs to /filesystem? What does it change?

Thirdly a remark. The easy update/upgrade mechanism in debian can cause problems on older computers, if the update/upgrade puts bigger demands on the machine. For example, I have SSE, not SSE2. If an upgrade involves a program moving towards SSE2, I will have a fall-out for that program after upgrade. Use with caution!

Hi foxpup. Taking your #2 first ...

Extract (not copy) the filesystem.squashfs to /
Which when the / partition is also the save 'folder' (partition) is the same as putting all of the main squashfs into the save 'folder' (partition).

Imagine (in Puppy CE terms) a empty tahr.sfs (and zdrv.sfs) with all of that content in the savefolder. The main sfs in effect is redundant as a higher layer (savefolder) content overlays everything that otherwise would have been in the tahr.sfs (so tahr.sfs can be emptied).

Which leads to your #1 ... if all files are in the save folder (partition) then the system will only read in what it needs, when it needs it. Once read in on systems with a reasonable amount of memory often those files remain cached (in memory). That all occurs 'naturally' (as controlled by the kernel/system). Being a HDD there's no issues with the drive being ejectable (with tahr CE you might want everything ... kitchen sink and all, read in so that the medium (CD/DVD) can be ejected and freed up to perhaps burn a new CD/DVD).

Good #3 point. Security and program updates are good in some respects, but can cause problems if the upgrades are to higher versions than what your hardware supports. With Debian stable the 'latest' stable versions do tend to be older well-proven/tested versions that more often support older hardware anyway. I guess its a judgment call ... either install and stick with that as-is, applying no updates (or maybe just selective (security) updates), or check-for/install updates to remain aligned to the latest Debian Stable version. A good thing about frugal style boot is you can run the update and test it out first, and then either opt to save that or not (excepting large sized updates (transition from one major version to the next likely will exceed the amount of memory space available to record all of those changes and as such wouldn't be doable via a frugal type boot ... have to be done by first backing up and then booting full boot (read/write) style, before downloading/applying the updates).

Debian caters for app pinning. Where you can pin versions of programs/kernel ...etc. so that they're excluded from being updated. I don't use that myself and know relatively little about any dependency conflicts that could cause. Debian documentation indicates that you're on your own if you pin things https://wiki.debian.org/AptPreferences When pinning, you must ensure compatibility of packages by yourself since Debian does not guarantee it. Note that pinning is completely optional, and Debian does not encourage pinning without thorough consideration.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
foxpup


Joined: 29 Jul 2016
Posts: 238
Location: europa near northsea

PostPosted: Fri 07 Oct 2016, 12:08    Post subject:  

@rufwoof

I did mean "extracted". That's implied with "/filesystem", not "/filesystem.squasfs".

Do I understand this correctly?
#1 The setup you propose can be done with debian or puppy likewise.
#2 "reads in as-when required" is typical for the savefolder, also in puppy
#3 The kernel/initrd(?) reads the complete filesystem.squashfs and only what is needed from savefolder/partition/fs(?). But stilI savefolder is the top-level, meaning it overlays all other layers. That doesn' seem right to me, or at least complicated.

I do have 1G RAM, but still, with bigger programs (firefox, libreoffice) speed can be an issue. So having more RAM free could help. I speed up startup a little by not using compression for filesystem.squashfs. But extracting it in the savefolder could speed up startup AND speed up running bigger apps.

How about placing filesystem in initrd.gz? Is that an option?

Pinning could be usefull for me. OTOH, I only need latest versions of firefox and LibreOffice. That is mainly because I am not the (only) user of these apps Wink So I update that manually.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 3 of 4 [58 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.0786s ][ Queries: 16 (0.0050s) ][ GZIP on ]