XenialDog 64bit (Ubuntu 'Xenial Xerus' LTS, 64-bit)

[rufwoof]

Since I particularly like the xfce window manager especially now that there's a whisper menu

Hi Mike. Isn't Xfce a DE (desktop environment) that sits on top of a Window Manager, such as Openbox (that sits on top of Xorg) ... or does Xfce also have its own Window Manager?

I thought that whiskermenu was a addon ... or at least installable for most of the common desktop environments.

I like the Openbox WM. Using that alone at present (no Tint2/LXDE/Xfce/KDE/Gnome, no panels ...etc.) ... Just a systray/notification popout (stalonetray) and openbox menus, along with Skippy-XD (launched by brightside hot corner tool).

Right click the desktop to bring up OpenBox menu. Set OpenBox configuration 'Margin' to leave a pixel or two width on the left hand screen edge and the menus easily accessible even if a window is full screened (and/or just have it activated by the Menu key or whatever (opposite side of the spacebar to where the Window/Special key is located).

[mikeslr]

Hi rufwoof,

Xfce is a windows manager. Other than XP's explorer and Puppy's original versions using jwm, it's the first one I was exposed to. That was running jemimah's Saluki. Xfce requires slightly more resources than openbox; an insignificant amount on current computers; less than gnome.

I hate wading thru menus, especially to launch the 10 or so applications I most frequently use. And to launch applications from desktop icons almost always requires that the window of an already opened application be minimized or moved. Besides, desktop icons almost always detract from the aesthetics of whatever wallpaper I've chosen. So, whenever possible I opt for panels which can be hidden until moused-over.

Unlike openbox onto which you have to add panels, such as tint2 or lxpanel, as far as I know, xfce includes the ability to open several; perhaps a reason why it requires slightly more resources than openbox. Adding launchers to xfce's panels is slightly less intuitive than to lxpanel. And as xfce doesn't provide desktop drive icons, one has to get used to opening windows to drives/partitions by first opening Thunar, the file manager usually used with xfce. Moreover, as xfce is the windows manager, some of the libraries required by openbox or jwm and dependencies of applications built to run under those aren't present. The foregoing explains why I've generally preferred openbox.

Whisper Menus makes the difference, especially on DebianDogs. Because you can use apt or synaptic to acquire dependencies, obtaining a functional application for one window manager is no different than for another. If there's anything I don't like about the DebianDogs, it's that their menus are even more unwieldier than Puppy's. The attached photo shows how whisper menu makes that difference: What gets assigned to the Favorites category is decided by the user.

Whisker Menu is not xfce's default menu. But most Puppy and Dog devs have provided it as an addition to or substitute for the default menu -- something you simply add to a panel. IIRC, in only one instance did I have to download it using synaptic.

I've looked and been unable to find any other window manager under which Whisper menu will run; and no comparable menu available under any other window manager; at least not without engaging in a lot of manual customizations each time you run a different operating system. And only Radky's Fbbox provides anything comparable in terms of the ease of accessing applications.

mikesLr

[rufwoof]

I hate wading thru menus, especially to launch the 10 or so applications I most frequently use. And to launch applications from desktop icons almost always requires that the window of an already opened application be minimized or moved. Besides, desktop icons almost always detract from the aesthetics of whatever wallpaper I've chosen. So, whenever possible I opt for panels which can be hidden until moused-over.

Hi Mike

With openbox menus you can define the exact layout of the menus, and have a sub menu (such as 'Debian' where the more 'normal' menu structure (automated) is replicated. In effect define your favourites and the order they're presented. The menu can also be via hot-key ... I have mine set to the Menu button (like the Windows button but on the opposite side of the spacebar). I set openbox Margins for the left screen edge to leave a few pixels width free, so when windows are maximised you can mouse over to the left screen edge and either right-click to present the menu, or middle click to select the desktop. Openbox menus work with character pressing as well, so with the menu open if I press T it automatically jumps to the Terminal choice and if there are no other T's in the menu it actually launches it (otherwise repeated pressing of T steps between the multiple T choices, Terminal and Transmission for instance if they were both in the menu).

Or just have your usual programs automatically loaded at startup and when minimised there's no sign of them on the display at all ... and use something like skippy-xd where when you mouse into the bottom left corner (using brightside to set that corner/action) and the windows are presented in a tiled manner ready for you to select one (you can even minimise by right clicking a window in the tiled set, or close the window using middle-click)


(animated gif of a handful of screenshots)

Some that use Openbox alone use docks that auto-hide to hold their regularly launched programs.

Also has the potential to be even more minimalist to leave the desktop empty and windows without title bars.

[backi]

Hi mikeslr !

I've looked and been unable to find any other window manager under which Whisper menu will run; and no comparable menu available under any other window manager; at least not without engaging in a lot of manual customizations each time you run a different operating system. And only Radky's Fbbox provides anything comparable in terms of the ease of accessing applications.

There is something in E17 (Enlightenment Desktop ) similar to Whisker-Menu...
it is called "Everything Starter " .

[fredx181]

Hi Mike,

Fred: After you published XenialDog64, you posted a couple of fixes. They also appear on the 2nd post of this thread. Are they included, necessary or recommended for your mod of ZestyDog64.

No, you don't have to do anything (besides frisbee install you did), these fixes are for XenialDog openbox, btw, remaster-scripts is already upgraded on Zesty64.
The 4th fix from second post (encrypted save) doesn't work on Zesty.

Whisker Menu is not xfce's default menu. But most Puppy and Dog devs have provided it as an addition to or substitute for the default menu -- something you simply add to a panel. IIRC, in only one instance did I have to download it using synaptic.

I've looked and been unable to find any other window manager under which Whisper menu will run

The Whisker Menu is a plugin for xfce4-panel, so if you install it (and the xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin) it can be used on any distro.
You may know already but "xfce4-appfinder" is very similar, here's demo (also I enjoy my recent discovery to show here as animated gif )
xfce4-appfinder on XenialDog64:


Fred

[The Flying Cat]

Hello mikeslr
If you want to add (compatible) PPA to Zesty, via command at least, it goes like this:
add-apt-repository ppa:oibaf/graphics-drivers
ppa:oibaf/graphics-drivers xenial -> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ppa_oibaf_graphics-drivers.list
...
Success: 'http://ppa.launchpad.net/oibaf/graphics-drivers/ubuntu xenial main' is added to the repositories
There should be 'zesty' instead. And PPA will use xenial dependencies... So just erase 'xenial' and write 'zesty' in the config file or via gui (Software & Updates) manually before updating or installing anything after adding PPA.

[mikeslr]

Thanks, The Flying Cat. Very helpful.


Thanks, rufwoof, backi and fred for the information regarding the capabilities of other window-managers and their addons.

mikesLr

[fredx181]

For clarity about add-apt-repository, there are two on ZestyDog:

Code: Select all

root@zesty64:~/Desktop# whereis add-apt-repository
add-apt-repository: /usr/bin/add-apt-repository /usr/local/bin/add-apt-repository
root@zesty64:~/Desktop#

- The one in /usr/local/bin is from XenialDog, which is a self made script (to avoid installing lots of dependencies), the default is "xenial", but works for other releases if you add add the name as argument, like this:

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add-apt-repository ppa:oibaf/graphics-drivers zesty

- The one in /usr/bin is the official (part of package "software-properties")
Since the official is installed it's best to rename or delete /usr/local/bin/add-apt-repository (as /usr/local/bin is first in PATH), then instead the official will be used and this is better because it detects the release automatically, so no need to add it to the command, just:

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add-apt-repository ppa:oibaf/graphics-drivers

Fred

[The Flying Cat]

Ooh, neat:) Thank you, Fred!
I guess I'll update original post, just in case)

[fredx181]

Hi All,

New versions of packages:
- quick-remaster, version 1.0.8, added option to create ISO from frugal install, see more info here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 454#954454
And here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 539#954539
Install from terminal:

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apt-get update
apt-get install quick-remaster 

- Fix for xenialdoginstall script, see backi's post here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 687#954687
And reply here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 700#954700
Install from terminal version 1.0.9:

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apt-get update
apt-get install xenialdoginstallscripts 

Or install from Synaptic

Added to Changes and Fixes list (5 and 6)

Fred

[Doglover]

Nice job Fred. I'm liking the Zesty because youtube audio doesn't work in Xenial. Also audacious is updated which is the best of all.

Full install
64g cruzer usb3
Hp Pavilion amd quad running at 2000
16g ram
pulse audio is best

This stick screams past anything else. Just as fast as a hd install.

[backi]

Hi Doglover !

You did a full Install to your Usb-Stick ? Is it correct ?

It is recommended to do a " frugal " Install with the "Dogs " and Puppy Linux on
UsB and Hard-drive too .It is also faster and more easier to backup .

I am not sure if doing a full Install is a good Idea .... there would be constant writing to the Stick ,which , so some People say ,will cause your stick wearing out faster.
But maybe somebody else knows more about it .

Regards !
Here is some Discussion about this Topic :
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2032379

[Doglover]

Hi Backi.... yep it's a full install.
Boots in 11 seconds and shuts down in 3.
I really don't care about writes to the stick, it should last five years.
Firefox loads in about 6 seconds. yay

Try it you will like it.

[backi]

Hi Doglover !
" Boots in 11 seconds and shuts down in 3.Firefox loads in about 6 seconds "

I'm not that much in a hurry Doglover .
But maybe i try it .....out of curiosity ...... sounds cool .

What about a frugal Install to Stick ......and booted with copy to Ram (copy2ram) option .........should be even faster with that 16 gigs of Ram .
Your system then should work even faster than Light .
Maybe Firefox would even start without touching Keyboard .
(just kidding )

Me.... i would do that ........ if i could .....

But just 1 gig of Ram .

[Doglover]

Hi Backi...

Full install boots up entirely in ram, any changes are stored in ram until shutdown.

Frugal install.... savefile needs to be .dat, and it takes a minute or so to finish the write. If you opt for a save folder, then it will write to the hd and I don't want that.

Cheers

[backi]

Full install boots up entirely in ram, any changes are stored in ram until shutdown.

Did not know .
Are you sure ?
Can anybody else explain ?

Frugal install.... savefile needs to be .dat, and it takes a minute or so to finish the write. If you opt for a save folder, then it will write to the hd and I don't want that.

Somehow a bit confusing your Statements .
You could do a frugal Install with Option to Save only on Demand ( or choose to save or not to save at Shutdown ) to Usb

So (for Example) the menu.lst would look like if frugal Install is on Usb .
changes (save Folder) is in /XENIALDOG/casper/changes ......on Usb


# menu.lst produced by grub4dosconfig-v1.9.2
color blue/cyan yellow/blue white/black cyan/black
#splashimage=/splash.xpm
timeout 10
default 0

# Frugal installed Puppy

title Xenial Dog - porteus-boot - save on EXIT changes=/XENIALDOG/changes folder
find --set-root /XENIALDOG/casper/vmlinuz
kernel /XENIALDOG/casper/vmlinuz from=/XENIALDOG noauto changes=EXIT:/XENIALDOG/casper/ ramsize=100%
initrd /XENIALDOG/casper/initrd1.xz

No Saving to Hardisk .---saving occurs only on Demand to Usb .
No saving during Session ......except you want to.
But not working in Ram.

Using :
kernel /casper/vmlinuz noauto from=/ copy2ram changes=EXIT:/XENIALDOG/casper/

Would cause loading to ram (if i am right ) with choice to save on Demand too .

But don`t get me wrong Doglover.......don`t want you converting to frugal Installation .
More on the Topic :
Frugal vs full installation: any difference in speed?

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=72889

[rufwoof]

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# menu.lst
color white/blue black/cyan white/black cyan/black
timeout 1
default 2

title FILESYSTEM.SQUASHFS READ ONLY
find --set-root /menu.lst
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live
initrd /initrd.img

title PERSISTENCE READ ONLY
find --set-root /menu.lst
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live persistence persistence-read-only
initrd /initrd.img

title PERSISTENCE ONLY HOME RW
find --set-root /menu.lst
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live persistence
initrd /initrd.img

title Debian FULL *** USE THIS TO UPGRADE KERNEL ***  Full RW 
  find --set-root /menu.lst
  configfile /boot/grub/menu.lst.mine
  commandline

I have four ways set to boot. The first uses everything stored in the main sfs (filesystem.squashfs) and takes 15 seconds to boot on this old 10+ year clunker (2GB/4 core). But that's a full Debian Gnome desktop with loads of stuff installed (1.5GB to 2GB sfs size) such as Kodi, Libre ...etc. Nothing is saved.

The second is similar, boots with the / folder/partition being the 'save space' and takes around 24 seconds to boot. Nothing is saved.

The third has persistence.conf with a /home entry ... so only changes under /home are preserved. Again takes around 24 seconds to boot (systemd-analyze reported value).

The last is a full boot, where grub4dos menu.lst simply chains to the Grub menu.lst to boot as though a fully installed setup. Again around 24 seconds bootup time.

That's all systemd style boot, using a partition type save-space.

Mostly I boot the third choice where only /home changes persist (configuration changes, diary, browser history/bookmarks ...etc.). I use the 4th 'full' style to apply updates ... and recreate a new filesystem.squashfs. The 1st and 2nd are similar read only sessions ... useful for trying things out where nothing is saved/changed. With a script similar to save2flash 1 and 2 can have changes being preserved at a time of your choosing (whenever you run the script).

That's all on my sda1 which is a ext3 format partition. I also have other choices of frugal boot (puppy like) folders (along with additional menu.lst entries that enable those to be booted). I also have other choices that are stored on a 2nd HDD so if the first drive has problems I might still be able to boot those, or if the first HDD has completely died boot those other choices with a bootable USB that has grub4dos/menu.lst.

I have seen some report boot times of 5 seconds, but haven't managed to break the 10 second barrier myself. Not that that particularly bothers me as I'm old-school of press the power on button and then go off to boil a kettle/brew before returning with the desktop ready to go.

I run without a swap partition/file and have no problems. If I were doing something heavy then I always have the option to create and activate a swap file specifically for that task. More usually libre, firefox, kodi ...etc once read in once remain memory bound (slower to initially start the first time than if restarted a second/subsequent time). Libre writer for instance might take a few seconds to start up the first time its loaded after booting, but is near instant to start thereafter.

Rather than a dedicated save partition, you can have a file filesystem. Under debian for instance that just has to be named persistence and have the persistence.conf file within the root level within that file filesystem. Under Ubuntu I believe its called casper or casper-rw ... or something like that (.dat file that Doglover described).

[Doglover]

@Backi..
Here is my setup

I don't use a swap file.
Journaling is disabled.
I fudged a little on the boot time, more like 15 seconds.
Shutdown is 2 seconds.

You need usb 3.0.

@Rufwoof..

The reason I went to a full install is to not write to the hard drive. Not a big thing but still desirable.

Sticks are so cheap these days.

[fredx181]

Full install boots up entirely in ram, any changes are stored in ram until shutdown.

How you do that, full install in RAM?

Fred

[Doglover]

Hi Fred, I did not do anything,left the filesystem alone but it is real.

Look at this....

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootToRAM