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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
XenialDog 64bit (Ubuntu 'Xenial Xerus' LTS, 64-bit)
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1340
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Tue 16 May 2017, 11:31    Post subject:  

Quote:
Full install boots up entirely in ram, any changes are stored in ram until shutdown.


Did not know .
Are you sure ?
Can anybody else explain ?

Quote:
Frugal install.... savefile needs to be .dat, and it takes a minute or so to finish the write. If you opt for a save folder, then it will write to the hd and I don't want that.

Somehow a bit confusing your Statements .
You could do a frugal Install with Option to Save only on Demand ( or choose to save or not to save at Shutdown ) to Usb

So (for Example) the menu.lst would look like if frugal Install is on Usb .
changes (save Folder) is in /XENIALDOG/casper/changes ......on Usb


# menu.lst produced by grub4dosconfig-v1.9.2
color blue/cyan yellow/blue white/black cyan/black
#splashimage=/splash.xpm
timeout 10
default 0

# Frugal installed Puppy

title Xenial Dog - porteus-boot - save on EXIT changes=/XENIALDOG/changes folder
find --set-root /XENIALDOG/casper/vmlinuz
kernel /XENIALDOG/casper/vmlinuz from=/XENIALDOG noauto changes=EXIT:/XENIALDOG/casper/ ramsize=100%
initrd /XENIALDOG/casper/initrd1.xz

No Saving to Hardisk .---saving occurs only on Demand to Usb .
No saving during Session ......except you want to.
But not working in Ram.

Using :
kernel /casper/vmlinuz noauto from=/ copy2ram changes=EXIT:/XENIALDOG/casper/

Would cause loading to ram (if i am right ) with choice to save on Demand too .

But don`t get me wrong Doglover.......don`t want you converting to frugal Installation . Smile Smile Smile
More on the Topic :
Frugal vs full installation: any difference in speed?

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=72889
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rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2163

PostPosted: Tue 16 May 2017, 19:14    Post subject:  

Code:
# menu.lst
color white/blue black/cyan white/black cyan/black
timeout 1
default 2

title FILESYSTEM.SQUASHFS READ ONLY
find --set-root /menu.lst
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live
initrd /initrd.img

title PERSISTENCE READ ONLY
find --set-root /menu.lst
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live persistence persistence-read-only
initrd /initrd.img

title PERSISTENCE ONLY HOME RW
find --set-root /menu.lst
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live persistence
initrd /initrd.img

title Debian FULL *** USE THIS TO UPGRADE KERNEL ***  Full RW
  find --set-root /menu.lst
  configfile /boot/grub/menu.lst.mine
  commandline

I have four ways set to boot. The first uses everything stored in the main sfs (filesystem.squashfs) and takes 15 seconds to boot on this old 10+ year clunker (2GB/4 core). But that's a full Debian Gnome desktop with loads of stuff installed (1.5GB to 2GB sfs size) such as Kodi, Libre ...etc. Nothing is saved.

The second is similar, boots with the / folder/partition being the 'save space' and takes around 24 seconds to boot. Nothing is saved.

The third has persistence.conf with a /home entry ... so only changes under /home are preserved. Again takes around 24 seconds to boot (systemd-analyze reported value).

The last is a full boot, where grub4dos menu.lst simply chains to the Grub menu.lst to boot as though a fully installed setup. Again around 24 seconds bootup time.

That's all systemd style boot, using a partition type save-space.

Mostly I boot the third choice where only /home changes persist (configuration changes, diary, browser history/bookmarks ...etc.). I use the 4th 'full' style to apply updates ... and recreate a new filesystem.squashfs. The 1st and 2nd are similar read only sessions ... useful for trying things out where nothing is saved/changed. With a script similar to save2flash 1 and 2 can have changes being preserved at a time of your choosing (whenever you run the script).

That's all on my sda1 which is a ext3 format partition. I also have other choices of frugal boot (puppy like) folders (along with additional menu.lst entries that enable those to be booted). I also have other choices that are stored on a 2nd HDD so if the first drive has problems I might still be able to boot those, or if the first HDD has completely died boot those other choices with a bootable USB that has grub4dos/menu.lst.

I have seen some report boot times of 5 seconds, but haven't managed to break the 10 second barrier myself. Not that that particularly bothers me as I'm old-school of press the power on button and then go off to boil a kettle/brew before returning with the desktop ready to go.

I run without a swap partition/file and have no problems. If I were doing something heavy then I always have the option to create and activate a swap file specifically for that task. More usually libre, firefox, kodi ...etc once read in once remain memory bound (slower to initially start the first time than if restarted a second/subsequent time). Libre writer for instance might take a few seconds to start up the first time its loaded after booting, but is near instant to start thereafter.

Rather than a dedicated save partition, you can have a file filesystem. Under debian for instance that just has to be named persistence and have the persistence.conf file within the root level within that file filesystem. Under Ubuntu I believe its called casper or casper-rw ... or something like that (.dat file that Doglover described).
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Doglover

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 262
Location: Humboldt

PostPosted: Tue 16 May 2017, 21:41    Post subject:  

@Backi..
Here is my setup

I don't use a swap file.
Journaling is disabled.
I fudged a little on the boot time, more like 15 seconds.
Shutdown is 2 seconds.

You need usb 3.0.

@Rufwoof..

The reason I went to a full install is to not write to the hard drive. Not a big thing but still desirable.

Sticks are so cheap these days.
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 2588
Location: holland

PostPosted: Wed 17 May 2017, 08:14    Post subject:  

DogLover wrote:
Full install boots up entirely in ram, any changes are stored in ram until shutdown.


How you do that, full install in RAM?

Fred

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Doglover

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 262
Location: Humboldt

PostPosted: Wed 17 May 2017, 21:45    Post subject:  

Hi Fred, I did not do anything,left the filesystem alone but it is real.

Look at this....

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootToRAM
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Doglover

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 262
Location: Humboldt

PostPosted: Wed 17 May 2017, 21:50    Post subject:  

When system is idle 225 mb

With firefox 550 mb

With audacious 320 mb

Where is the screenshot app?

Another link

https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1594694
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rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2163

PostPosted: Wed 17 May 2017, 23:36    Post subject:  

As a comparison, frugal booted ...

88MB idle



255MB with firefox



Most recent debian jessie update, running jwm/rox



Screenshots taken using command
Code:
mtpaint -s

(I have Alt-F2 setup to run gmrun (command prompt) and I just type that mtpaint -s command into that window).
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1340
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Thu 18 May 2017, 03:14    Post subject:  

Hi Doglover !
Frugal is the Future ......or more the Present .

Although myself see more advantage in frugal Installs over full Installs ......find your Informations quite interesting ......was thinking full Installs could not go to ram .
But i am a bit skeptical about it ..... can`t see any Benefit from it , if i can accomplish it with frugal on a System ( in my case 1 Gig Ram ) much lighter to my Ram and System .
Makes my old ,more than 10 years old Clunker (Toshiba Satellite 3000 ---1 gig Ram --single Core ) fly like Starship Enterprise .
I was hoping he would die soon,so i could buy a new " better " One .
But it does not happen .The " Frugal Concept " made obviously some rejuvenating Effects to this old Horse .So probably i will die before i need to buy a new , modern One Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

See rufwoof`s screenshots above .

The frugal Installations let you easily Backup and /or Restore your System in a Blink of the Eye.
Dont know if one do oneself a favor using Full Install .
Maybe there are Arguments for it .......would be interested .

The "frugal Concept " and " Saving on Demand " makes , in my Opinion ,the "Dogs " and Puppies so outstanding......and that`s why i am using and prefer them over Full Install.
Me i am just an "Old School " Guy , but i find Hard-Disk Installs too "Old School " .
That`s why i converted to Puppy .

Won`t somehow disrespect the Puppies.... a revolutionary Concept .....thank you Barry Kauler and all you Guys ....But the "Dogs" were the next logical Step evolving Puppies further .

Think "Frugal " is more sophisticated and flexible .....and so for me are the " Dogs " over Puppies .......one Step ahead... Puppy grown up and matured .
I know the "Dogs" are not really Puppies.
But call them ( just for Fun ) :
Puppy Linux on Steroids .

Regards Smile Smile
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 2588
Location: holland

PostPosted: Thu 18 May 2017, 06:20    Post subject:  

Doglover wrote:
Hi Fred, I did not do anything,left the filesystem alone but it is real.

Look at this....

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootToRAM


Hi Doglover,
What I read there is not about full install, it's about a live system
kernel boot command line:
Code:
kernel /casper/vmlinuz boot=casper toram splash


Perhaps there's confusion about what you actually call a full install.
What is your boot command line?

It seems possible loading a full install to RAM, but lots of RAM required, e.g. 6-8 GB (depending on the size of the system of course) and a modified intrd, for example see here:
http://www.elettronicaopensource.com/index.php?p=32&lang=en
www.elettronicaopensource.com wrote:
The startup may take up to 10 minutes depending on which hard drive you have and how much space occupies your linux system


Doglover wrote:
You need usb 3.0


Yes, that should make it a lot faster, and it depends on the speed/quality of the USB-stick too
(I have a Sandisk Cruzer Contour, it's 5 times faster than any other USB-stick I have, I got only usb 2.0 btw)

Fred

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rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2163

PostPosted: Thu 18 May 2017, 10:27    Post subject:  

mfb PM'd me about using grun instead of gmrun. Nice (thanks mfb). grun is pre-emptive, so type gal for instance and it will offer galculator.

I'm using a single ~/.jwmrc file with no pipe menus or anything like that, just 3 (now, was just two) menu options of RUN (grun, that also can be activated with Alt-F2), system (that puts up a gtkdialog of logout, reboot, shutdown ...etc), and Applications (that opens pcmanfm menu://applications, from where you can select either the sub-section (Office, Accessories ...etc) and then click to run any program within that, or click on 'Applications' to see all /usr/share/applications files (.desktop files).

That's automatically dynamic, accounts for new programs being added or removed, and avoids having to maintain (albeit via a automated script) the main jwm menu. Alongside desktop icons works quite nicely IMO.


(image shows both menu://applications and /usr/share/applications open, but in practice only menu://applications opens when the jwm menu Applications button is clicked ... a pcmanfm bookmark could enable /usr/share/applications to be more directly opened from that window).

Along with brightside (hot corners) and skippy-xd (not in debian repository, has to be installed from elsewhere) that's activated by brightside (for whichever corner/side you set that to be) and shows a tiled arrangement of all open/minimised windows ... and it can be set up to be quite similar to the gnome desktop. Have the top left corner as presenting skippy-xd, and with grun preemptive searching, along with pcmanfm showing all available applications and that mostly reflects the much heavier/bloated gnome desktop layout/style. Make the bottom panel auto-hide and it reflects the gnome notification area. OK not as tidy/consistent as gnome, but easier to operate in practice IMO (gnome's bottom pop-up needs you to mouse down in a downward stroke manner through the bottom of the screen and doesn't respond well IME (sometimes doesn't pop up as easily as you'd prefer, sometimes pops up when you don't want it to). Overall a puppy/dog alternative as outlined above is more usable (gnome desktop looks nice, but when it comes to do real work its rather heavy going IMO and soon has you reverting to a more conventional desktop style/layout).
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rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2163

PostPosted: Thu 18 May 2017, 10:50    Post subject:  

backi wrote:
The frugal Installations let you easily Backup and /or Restore your System in a Blink of the Eye.
Dont know if one do oneself a favor using Full Install .
Maybe there are Arguments for it .......would be interested .

The "frugal Concept " and " Saving on Demand " makes , in my Opinion ,the "Dogs " and Puppies so outstanding......and that`s why i am using and prefer them over Full Install.

I use grub4dos to boot and a single ext3 partition that I backup/restore using mksquashfs and unsquashfs to/from another ext3 partition. IME, backup's of full or frugal aren't that much different if you use a high speed compression method such as lz4.

Mostly I boot frugal using a partition save space (same partition as where the main sfs is). But create that frugal from a full install (that menu.lst chains to for booting purposes). So I can transition from frugal to full and vice-versa easily

cd /live
mksquashfs /mnt/sda1 filesystem.squashfs -e live

type process (when the main sfs is being stored in /live folder) to create a frugal from the full.

cd /live
unsquashfs -f -d /mnt/sda1 filesystem.squashfs

to extract the frugal sfs and make it a full boot type style again.

For my frugal boot I just have /home as being persistent (so a bit more complicated than the above) so that diary, browser, personal system configuration ...etc are preserved. I tend to only boot full style in order to apply system updates/security patches.

Using a frugal image of a full install from a top of tree provider (Debian in my case) provides the best of both worlds. A good level of security and program updates, Puppy like operation/desktop (frugal).

I moved over to that choice after DebianDog fell flat on its face. Dependency upon developers/security updates that potentially might vanish overnight. Not as lean as puppy, but by the time you add in all of the additional sfs's puppy requires to create a similar system (including kodi, libre office, video editing ...etc), and the difference isn't that much given the current capacities and inexpensive cost of large size HDD's. In a 2GB ram system I notice little difference in operational speed compared to even the lightest of puppies ... both tend to end up being ram resident one way or another such that speeds are comparable. The main differences are in the early minutes depending upon how programs become memory resident (perhaps loaded at bootup in which case boot up is slower, or on a program by program basis (program slower to load the first time its run than if already memory resident)). Overall IME that tends to wash (comparable overall operational speed when measured on a like for like basis).
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Doglover

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 262
Location: Humboldt

PostPosted: Thu 18 May 2017, 15:57    Post subject:  

Rufwoof.....

I do not have mtpaint installed in Zesty. Where can I find it?

Edit Never mind found it
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rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2163

PostPosted: Thu 18 May 2017, 17:05    Post subject:  

Doglover wrote:
Rufwoof.....

I do not have mtpaint installed in Zesty. Where can I find it?

Edit Never mind found it

I use mtpaint mostly for desktop snaps and resizing of those.

Select a area using the mouse and then Image, Crop.

And/or Image, Scale Canvas and enter a size of 600 (as per posting to forums) for the New Width, automatically adjusts the Height by default (Fix Aspect Ratio checked).

I don't tend to use it for much else as it doesn't come intuitively to me. For drawing I tend to use LibreOffice.
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Doglover

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 262
Location: Humboldt

PostPosted: Fri 19 May 2017, 18:22    Post subject:  

Hi all....
Here are some screenshots. I am also looking for an utility to monitor writes to the usb drive in realtime.
kodi and firefox.jpg
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Filesize  204.25 KB 
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htop.jpg
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Filename  htop.jpg 
Filesize  214.45 KB 
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top.jpg
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Filename  top.jpg 
Filesize  186.13 KB 
Downloaded  38 Time(s) 
stick.jpg
 Description   
 Filesize   77.96 KB
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stick.jpg

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Doglover

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 262
Location: Humboldt

PostPosted: Fri 19 May 2017, 18:33    Post subject:  

PS....

This is The Flying Cat's 400mb version of Zesty, still with Xenial tags. I could not get Fred's version of Zesty to boot.

Very fast and sweet.
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