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belham2

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1031

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 04:54    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
TBH 'full installs' should be totally abandoned by Puppy (woof-CE).



+1

Additionally, what bothered me about Barry's Quirky excursion was its near total inability to run smoothly as a "frugal" install. The hoops I had to jump through just to get Quirkies to somewhat 'stably' run in frugal mode were, well, to be kind, irritating. Barry seemed to have went 'whole hog' in the other direction and wanting everyone to do "full installs". Far be it from to us 'users' question you Masters of the puppy universe, but--for Barry at least---he seems to, with the Quirkies, have completely forgotten what puppy is all about. I know of no one, except Slavvo, using Quirkies (myself included) anymore exactly because of this issue. They are a major PITA to run and maintain. From my perspective, most other puppies' beauty is precisely BECAUSE we do not full install them.

Puppyies, frugally, savefile or remastering (which is made easy now), all via a partition, USB, SD-card, CD or DVD, that is what our world is about. I don't know, maybe I am misguided, and the "end destination" of puppy is the objective to full-install and replace every other Linux, MSFT, or Apple OS out there Sad But if this 'full-install' mentality continues, what would be holding us puppy users here and not just moving over to MX-16 or SimplyLinux or Solus or one of the other zillion nice mid-to-large linux OSes out there that present way less headaches in terms of operation and maintenance?
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1262
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 05:20    Post subject:  

Hi belham !

Do completely agree with you !
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Robert123

Joined: 20 May 2016
Posts: 331
Location: Pacific

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 06:05    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
TBH 'full installs' should be totally abandoned by Puppy (woof-CE).


Totally disagree having the choice is important. What separates Puppy from other distros is the freedom to run as root.

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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 11581
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 06:31    Post subject:  

Robert123 wrote:
Totally disagree having the choice is important. What separates Puppy from other distros is the freedom to run as root.

What's the connection between full/frugal and running as root?

Please explain what benefits you get from a full install.
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belham2

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1031

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 06:52    Post subject:  

Robert123 wrote:
01micko wrote:
TBH 'full installs' should be totally abandoned by Puppy (woof-CE).


Totally disagree having the choice is important. What separates Puppy from other distros is the freedom to run as root.


Hi Robert,

As rcrsn51 eloquently put, you're comparing apples and oranges. We all agree with the power of running root. But there are no benefits to mention that a user can describe that are attained from a "full" install versus a "frugal" one when it comes to the world of "puppy". Trying to do so in as exercise in Donald-Trump-like fairyland disbelief, lol, to use an analogy. Frugal can do everything that a full can, but here's the key, frugal can do so much more that a "full" cannot.
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1262
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 08:23    Post subject:  

Quote:
Frugal can do everything that a full can, but here's the key, frugal can do so much more that a "full" cannot.


......So it is......!!
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rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2111

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 09:47    Post subject:  

The same files/folders make up my full and frugal. Difference is in the way booted. All of main sfs extracted to the save space ... which is a partition. So can either be booted frugally (aufs/overlay layering initrd/init), or directly (full).

Most often booted frugally and no saves/changes made, but when a big update comes along boot full and apply the updates before rebooting frugally again. Combined with Debian updates/repositories ... very stable (albeit older versions of programs which by their nature have been more extensively tested/fixed).

Running as root? On many of the other desktop based choices root is easily accessible, often not even protected ... sudo some-command. Change the Terminal desktop icon or whatever to open a root one, set the filemanager to open as root ... and the rest all runs as user by default.

Small size? Most systems run with GB's of free disk and memory space nowadays.

Functionality? Many devices in peoples pockets are as if not more functional.

.... The appeal of puppy IMO is the crowd and the fun playing around.
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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 611
Location: Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 10:39    Post subject:  

belham2 wrote:
Robert123 wrote:
01micko wrote:
TBH 'full installs' should be totally abandoned by Puppy (woof-CE).


Totally disagree having the choice is important. What separates Puppy from other distros is the freedom to run as root.


Hi Robert,

As rcrsn51 eloquently put, you're comparing apples and oranges. We all agree with the power of running root. But there are no benefits to mention that a user can describe that are attained from a "full" install versus a "frugal" one when it comes to the world of "puppy". Trying to do so in as exercise in Donald-Trump-like fairyland disbelief, lol, to use an analogy. Frugal can do everything that a full can, but here's the key, frugal can do so much more that a "full" cannot.



In precise 5.7.1 there is a bug limiting the size of the save file or risk corruption of the save file. BK mentions this and I had it happen once.

Also, precise 5.7.1 cannot use save folders as it is not a woof-ce based puppy.

Welcome to fairyland Wink





.

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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 11581
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 13:07    Post subject:  

perdido wrote:
Also, precise 5.7.1 cannot use save folders as it is not a woof-ce based puppy.

That's the problem. People who have always used full installs to avoid savefiles, don't want to change course and try save folders in new Puppies.

If you boot a frugal install with the "pfix=nocopy" option, you effectively have a full install.
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Robert123

Joined: 20 May 2016
Posts: 331
Location: Pacific

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 15:23    Post subject:  

Personally I hate save files and running frugally and the bug Precise has with it really puts me off it. Like I said the freedom to run as root is what makes it different from other distros for me personally not the save file thing and its simple frankly beautiful initiation system - beautifully quick and simple. My point I what the choice when I install Puppy whether to frugal or full install. Why do I dislike save files when it starts filling up and having to increase the size of it - sorry not my cup of tea.

If you like frugal - fair enough your choice - fill your boots.

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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 10831
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 15:48    Post subject:  

Hi Robert123.

One could of course ask at first boot for a big pupsave file of say, 1.5 Gb.
Then one could wait a year before having to enlarge it... If ever! Wink

Just a thought!

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musher0
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 11581
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 15:50    Post subject:  

@Robert123: Do you understand that there is now a thing called a save folder than never fills up (until you run out of hard drive space)? So it works the same as a full install.

If you want to keep using old Puppies, then by all means use a savefile. But the issue here is whether new Puppies should continue support full installs when there is a superior alternative.
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 10831
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 15:57    Post subject:  

Hi rcrsn51.

I disagree with the adjective "superior" in your previous post. A save folder
is an alternative, yes, but not superior, IMO, when it comes to the ease with
which you can make a back-up of a save file and to its portability, of course.

BFN.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
« La vraie justice serait d'emm...r pelo autant qu'il nous emm...e. » (Moi) /
"True justice would be to annoy pelo as much as he annoys us." (Me)
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 11581
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 16:04    Post subject:  

What's the difference between backing up a save file to another location versus a save folder? In either case, it's drag-and-drop.

If a savefile is X MB in size but only half-full, you are still backing up X MB. But a save folder is only as big as what it contains.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 9268
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr 2017, 16:15    Post subject:  

Agree, it is just as easy to backup a save folder as a save file.

However, the format of the device you are putting the backup on, is a factor, as to what save you are using.


Problem with save folder.
They can only be put on a Linux formatted storage device.

If you have Puppy as a frugal install on a Vfat, ntfs, etc... format, it has to be a save file.

Puppy can be installed to any format as frugal.
So, you have to deal with that, with save options.

A lot of new to Puppy people, put Puppy on USB flash drives.
They come formatted fat32.
A lot of those people, usually, do not understand about formatting.
They just use the USB flash with that format.
Stuck with the 4GB, fat32, file size, max limit.

The things I have always understood about full installs.
They do not use the layered file system.
It is best for people doing software compiling.
Works best on really low RAM computers.
Not sure what low RAM is now for Puppy.
Probably 512MB or less.

But, I do agree, if you can, frugal install is best!!!!!!

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