DD (openbox)/XenialDog General Discussion Thread

[mcewanw]

This sounds like a cheap trading to me. I will take DebianDog, you will take XenialDog, William is the owner of the organisation page and manager...

Hi Toni,

Rest assured the proposition isn't some form of cheap trading though I understand your concerns.

Actually, I PM'd Fred yesterday to tell him I was very unhappy with the way he was approaching the matters, and very critical of the attitude, which needed sorted out, and he accepted that and agreed to change approach. It's correct of course that anyone can fork DebianDog (including XenialDog variant) and that fork can include free or non-free, but I look forward to your continuing more rigorously to Debian Standards with DebianDog. Complete waste if we let these projects die, and be forgotten about by everyone, otherwise, as they soon would.

And I have insisted on the community project nature of both.

As for the organisation page, which would only now be for DebianDog, I do not intend continuing to own or manage that - I will be passing the ownership/management of it over to you. Of course, it is a community resource and how it gets managed should be up to the community, but someone appropriate has to take day to day charge of it anyway and ensure it is maintained as a community resource rather than something personal that could suddenly be deleted following disputes and so on. Hopefully it has been useful someone like myself having had a more neutral control over it thus far, but I am happy to pass that torch over to you.

And even if neither Fred nor yourself work further on either DebianDog or the XenialDog fork it is still important to move towards fixing the scripts licensing situation and separating the projects out so others in the community have a chance to continue them.

Hope that helps put your mind at ease.

William

[saintless]

Hi Fred, William.

OK, I will think about how to fix all again and try to make it a community project.
Give me few days to think about it.
I hope there will be someone from the people I mentioned in the credits who likes to be part of the organisation page.

Toni

[saintless]

In my mind something like this should be the starting point:

William,
You are the owner of the github organisation. I think you should keep this position. Or invite someone else to replace you. Like Terry or even some of the forum moderators here (DebianDog development exists thanks to them also). I don't want you to transfer me the ownership and I would accept this only if you insist and you don't have any other option. Fred is a good choice too.

DebianDog and XenialDog stay in the same organisation page. I will probably add there MintPup and DD-Squeeze later.

Fred (and maybe William also),
some work you should do before anything like that can happen.

1. Post on the home page credits to the people who made all Dog based projects possible (including this forum and Debian team). Any newer contributors you like to add there below now and in the future is OK for me.

2. Upload archive with all older versions of the scripts as source (you can find them inside DD-Jwm (/opt/bin/special) and here:
http://smokey01.com/saintless/source-code/
And add link to the sources of DebianDog - Debian-live images. You can simply use link to my uploads here if you like:
https://github.com/MintPup/Retro-Debian ... /tag/v.1.0

3. Add GPL - license to each existing DebianDog-XenialDog repository and post in separate (like License-readme.md) document - the iso could include scripts and packages with different license. Add there also all scripts created for DebianDog without license are result from this forum community work and GPL license applies to all. If anyone of the contributors/authors have claims for different license the information will be changed or the script/contribution will be removed/replaced with different code in next iso update. Add also there if someone can find part of his/her code included without source link the information in the script will be updated. This means some e-mail should be available on the organisation page.

4. Add in every repository with non-free packages that the iso includes non-free packages and the people have to download the man-doc-info.squashfs together with the iso (since it containes the non-free packages license information). Should be enough for now.
The extra squashfs modules containing non-free packages should have the non-free license inside but you can change that slowly in time if you update them. Maybe we can agree about something better for your new non-free iso versions later if you like.

5. Any iso version that doesn't have a maintainer/developer at the moment will have something like "Maintainer or developer wanted" message on the project page. Anyone who wants to work on this abandoned project can take it and develop it according the license agreement we accept.

If you do this frst I will accept new invitation to the organisation page. Open for suggestions if you see some problem I miss in all this.

My part in the future:
I will continue to work as a maintainer of projects before 2015 - MintPup and DebianDog-Jwm Squeeze, Wheezy, Jesssie 32-bit versions (if someone else doesn't want to maintain them). I can update also the OpenBox 32-bit older versions from Fred the same way if he doesn't plan to work on them. But I will have to remove the non-free firmware first.
When I think it is time to work on new DD-related project I will start one, fork one or take one of the existing without maintainer. Anyone else can do the same. This is what the organisation owners should be able to do - give new people access to maintain abandoned iso versions.

Toni

[mcewanw]

Hi Toni,

Despite having once read up on github usage and having encouraged Fred and yourself to use it and opened the site as thus 'owner', as you know, I myself have never used it since. Since my knowledge of github was thus brief and years ago, I am pretty hopeless at finding or adding or modifying anything on it, which doesn't mean I won't try.

With my above comment in mind, I cannot say I know how much work is involved in what you suggest but please remember that we don't do this particular project development work for a profession - we are a tiny team of amateurs (unlike Debian itself) and just do such project work for fun. However, bearing my limited skills in mind, I have tried to make a brief start in terms of adding acknowledgments to some of the projects on there. I haven't touched XenialDog for the moment, because Fred has to decide about everything too. Also, probably because I am hopeless at github management I have no idea how to add acknowledgements to the start page - so my quick efforts are just an encouragement for everyone to resolve these matters. My hopelessness at github is another reason why I will not be the manager of the site; someone else will need to be identified.

I think it is fair to say that we are all responsible for the mess in licenses not being maintained/declared properly so the work should not all just fall into Fred's hands, which would surely be too much to ask. If we are in agreement to resolve/fix the issues then please let's all of us be willing to get our hands dirty rather than waiting on anyone else to do the work first. If there is no fun, there will be no-one willing to develop I fear.

Cheers, William

[fredx181]

Hi Toni,

Well, of course I said that I'm open for anything, but really, I think you don't understand who I am. So, a little about the "me now" first:
I'm just a simple guy with over-interest in Linux, call me an amateur and I'd agree.
Also I'm not a "purist" and not as ambitious anymore as I was before.
I don't want at all to have the stamp "Debiandog Maintainer" or whatever, my plans for the future is to share a little and maybe help here and there.
And if I might share something in the future that's similar to DebianDog, I call it "<name> this a fork of DebianDog" (or derative, whatever). (if you have other suggestion please say it)
Also I can call Xenialdog "a fork" or "born out of community project 'Debiandog'" if you would have objection to how I call it now.
Still think it's better to move Xenialdog away from the DD org. unless someone is willing to work on licencing etc.. (obviously not me)

Admitted: It was wrong by me continuing under the name Debiandog after you left the DD organization.
So I stopped working on Debiandog and I really thought, a few months ago, when you said "no more conflicts" that I could start or do my own thing, no matter if you or anyone likes how it's setup.

About community project: Yes, the way we worked on Debiandog it was, but after you left, I can hardly call the 'Dogs' a community project anymore, except William's contributions on Xenialdog and some "side" projects by 'dancytron' and 'The Flying Cat' (as far as I can remember), but don't get me wrong, indeed all was born out of a community project you started and it's a good thing that all the threads are now open again.

My age is 60 now and my health isn't as well anymore than a few years ago.
So please, don't confront me with a big list of things I have to do on a project that I'm no part of anymore (DebianDog).
Can't you do these things you mention as required "before you accept the invitation" yourself ? I'm sure you can do it better than me because you know exactly what and how you want it.
And about older or newer openbox version, I promise I won't complain about whatever you do, even not if you delete them (not that I expect you to do the latter, btw).

Hopefully it's more clear now where I stand.
Let's just make an arrangement that's simple for me to let me 'get out' of the DD org. for the most part, please.

EDIT: Didn't read William's message before I posted this.
Indeed github is diffucult, I have some experience the last year, but still feel clumsy and don't have any experience how to handle e.g. multiple users doing commits and also: mixing doing commits on the website itself and from the commandline.
To prevent strange things occur, I always use commandline pushing and I use --force (maybe that's wrong)

Fred

[saintless]

I think it is fair to say that we are all responsible for the mess in licenses not being maintained/declared properly so the work should not all just fall into Fred's hands, which would surely be too much to ask.

Thanks William, Fred.

What I ask is adding two .md files for license in each repository, uploading one archive with source scripts editing the home page with the information you posted in all DD repoes (which is fine for me the way you did it in each repo instead):
https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/
And link to download the man-doc.squahfs in non-free projects together with the iso.
It is one or maximum 2 hours work at most and I don't mind to do it myself once we have community agreement about this. Including Fred and maybe few of the contributors mentioned by me.

Lets wait for few comments on my suggestion from other people and if everyone is OK and you both agree - I can do the job myself on the github pages.

Toni

[fredx181]

Hi Toni,

Not sure if I understand you well but anyway added the credit lines to the Home page:
https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/

For the rest I'll wait for your next post, at anytime just tell me what you'd like me to add to the website and I'll do it.

Fred

[mcewanw]

You have my agreement however it goes. Let me know when to pass over ownership of DebDog organisation page, but be patient: I don't even know how to do that and had lots of trouble in the past trying to even set up correct permissions for Fred to work on his repositories.

[saintless]

Hi Toni,

Not sure if I understand you well but anyway added the credit lines to the Home page:
https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/

For the rest I'll wait for your next post, at anytime just tell me what you'd like me to add to the website and I'll do it.

Fred

It's fine Fred. Thanks.

I didn't see this while answering:

Still think it's better to move Xenialdog away from the DD org. unless someone is willing to work on licencing etc.. (obviously not me)

As long as you state it is a fork of DebianDog and all the work of the people in the DebianDog credits message is included I don't mind to do what you want. Move it or keep it in the organisation page. I can do the license work for you if you give me temporary access to the repository. I never use command line to commit in github. I do all from web-browser.

To anyone interested:
I don't plan to work too much on DebianDog also. This means if Fred and William leave the organisation and there are no new people to take over the development, the only thing I can do is to fix the license problem and post a message "Developers wanted." Not quite a community project future in my opinion.

Toni

[saintless]

You have my agreement however it goes. Let me know when to pass over ownership of DebDog organisation page, but be patient: I don't even know how to do that and had lots of trouble in the past trying to even set up correct permissions for Fred to work on his repositories.

Thanks William.

Just set Fred and me as owners with you as it was before in my opinion. Then he can move project or stay or leave as I did. It will be much easier for you.
But all I can do is to license the project. I will not work on community project alone. We've seen the result from this.

Toni

[mcewanw]

Just set Fred and me as owners with you as it was before in my opinion. Then he can move project or stay or leave as I did. It will be much easier for you.

Okay, I'll do this Toni (I'm presuming you have received the DebDog organisation github re-invitation). Late evening here now though, so heading to bed.

Cheers, William

[mcewanw]

Just set Fred and me as owners with you as it was before in my opinion. Then he can move project or stay or leave as I did. It will be much easier for you.

Okay, I'll do this Toni

OK, Done.

[saintless]

Thanks William.
Good night to you.

Toni

[backi]

Hi dancytron !

If you have a link to a 32 bit Debian Stretch version that doesn't have a buggy experimental window manager, post it and I'll try to upgrade and remaster it.

Not sure if it has a buggy experimental window manager
The only link i have is here :
https://github.com/DebianDog/Stretch

Greetings !

[saintless]

Hi Fred, William, Community maybe...???

Done with all DebianDog repositories. The non-free packages in the distributions fixed this way in each repository for now:
https://github.com/DebianDog/Jessie/blo ... License.md

DebianDog, MintPup, XenialDog iso images could include packages with different licenses. Read the license documentation about some script or deb package for more information.

Maybe I will change it later.
All DebianDog projects are GPL-v3 now according to the community dialog (me and two more old dogs to be correct).

I will not touch anything in XenialDog repository without word from Fred about this and about "Maintainers Wanted" message in each DebianDog repository.

All credits point to this file:
https://github.com/DebianDog/Wheezy/blo ... Credits.md
You can add any new contributors you like inside and the information will be auto updated in all repoes.


Toni

[backi]

[Galbi]

Hooray !!!
+1
Speaking, people understands each other.

[belham2]

Ok, things seem moving along here......

...can I ask: watch's the chance us noobies (that includes Backi & me ) are going to see some sort of "-Dog" of the spanking new Stretch? In my defense, Toni & Fred (Fred already knows this), I did try, but it was with a 32-bit puppy-fied Dpup-Stretch version that I put up here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=110012. It came out so-so, looks all pretty and such, , but under the hood, well, lol, there's some problems.

Thus, I've been remaining quiet and waiting for the Masters to get back to doing what they do best: develop/build dog distros.

Hope I am not ruffling any feathers, just thought in the spirit of things, and now that Stretch 9.0 is out from Debian, the next phase can begin.

If it's too soon, well, you can't blame a person for trying Besides, I've still got DDog32 and Xenial64Dog running quite fine installed "frugally".

Take care all!


P.S. If all you guys can make peace, then maybe there's hope for the rest of us.

[saintless]

...can I ask: watch's the chance us noobies (that includes Backi & me ) are going to see some sort of "-Dog" of the spanking new Stretch?

Hi belham.

My part in the future:
I will continue to work as a maintainer of projects before 2015 - MintPup and DebianDog-Jwm Squeeze, Wheezy, Jesssie 32-bit versions (if someone else doesn't want to maintain them). I can update also the OpenBox 32-bit older versions from Fred the same way if he doesn't plan to work on them. But I will have to remove the non-free firmware first.
When I think it is time to work on new DD-related project I will start one, fork one or take one of the existing without maintainer. Anyone else can do the same.

I will maintain the existing old 32-bit versions listed above without adding new functions inside. Only updated packages and bugs fixes.
Maybe the community in time will find a way to develop newer and 64-bit versions here or anywhere else. Including Fred if he has such plans.

Toni

[Sailor Enceladus]

DebianDog Project Maintenance Thread
DebianDog - Jessie - Continued
DebianDog64 - 64 bit DebianDog-Jessie
XenialDog 64bit (Ubuntu 'Xenial Xerus' LTS, 64-bit)
XenialDog (Ubuntu 16.04 'Xenial Xerus' LTS, 32-bit)
DebianDog - Wheezy
DebianDog - Jessie
Fatdog64-710 Final [4 Dec 2016]
dCoreDog (uses Ubuntu Xenial Xerus 32 bit repositories)

murga needs a Dog House section to throw these into I think...