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TrinityDog - Jessie & Stretch
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 938

PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul 2017, 17:10    Post subject:  

Hopefully Fred or others more knowledgable will chime in, but I think most of the building blocks to do what you want are there. My thoughts below inline in blue.
der-schutzhund wrote:
Hello!
Here in the topic TrinityDog I landed because I'm looking for a new base for a Linux for the use at my school and for me to be private. Since 2015, I have already used my own system "PhyTechT" which I have developed and adapted with the help of "LazY Puppy" (Rainer). PhyTechT stands for physics, technology and Tahr.
It now runs two years very stable and has all the programs I need for the lessons. However, there are more and more updates of programs that are now no longer running under my PhyTechT and therefore I am forced to build a new system. For now I am looking for an optimal basis.
Perhaps I call the properties of my system as I would like the new Linux and someone can tell me whether TrinityDog is suitable for it:
- frugale installation Yes, no problem.
- No save file Yes, no problem.
- dynamic integration of SFS By this I assume you mean like Lazy Puppy where you can issue a command and it will download an SFS file, mount it, and then run the command to start the application. I think except for the download part, Debian Dog already has the tools to build this. It is called "SFS-Portable". I think it allows you to select an sfs file, set a few parameters and then it creates a script that loads and runs it. I've attached the dialog for you to see. I haven't used it myself and I am not sure anyone really has. Also note that creating sfs files is much easier than in Puppy because of the apt2sfs script which pretty much automatically creates a working sfs file by just entering in the program you want to create and then it automatically downloads all the dependencies and makes the sfs file for you.
I would like to start each program via its own script. This script checks if a dependent module is already loaded and if it is not loaded automatically. Of course I define the dependent modules before. This is exactly how it works in my current system. Not sure about this. If you use apt2sfs to create the sfs file, it would already have all its dependencies.
- my current SFS should run (possibly after an adjustment)! Don't understand this requirement..
- Possibility to customize using a start script at booting
- Updating via a shutdown-script when shutting down
- German language Don't know about this. Would probably require some manual translation.
- Automatic connection via LAN and WLAN Yes, no problem.
- automatic mounting of HD and USB stick Not out of the box, but ought to be fairly easy to setup.
- own menu system with WBAR You'd have to configure it, but shouldn't be an issue.
My own development VarioMenu is based on a WBAR and is ideal for working with pupils and of course for "normal" users
- the system should also boot under UEFI I don't have UEFI, but I assume it would be the same as other Debian based linuxes.
- in any case 32Bit, possibly also 64Bit version
The question is, can Trinitydog be used as a basic linux? I actually don't know too much about Trinity itself. Might be better to start with one of the open box based versions of Debian Dog.
greetings

Wolfgang
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der-schutzhund

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1040
Location: Blomberg / Germany

PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul 2017, 17:36    Post subject:  

Many thanks for your response!

Quote:
- my current SFS should run (possibly after an adjustment)!

By this I mean the my 40 programs in the format sfs which I would like use also under DOG!

Quote:
Might be better to start with one of the open box based versions of Debian Dog.

What dog version could that be?

greetings

Wolfgang
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 938

PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul 2017, 17:47    Post subject:  

der-schutzhund wrote:
Many thanks for your response!

Quote:
- my current SFS should run (possibly after an adjustment)!

By this I mean the my 40 programs in the format sfs which I would like use also under DOG!

Quote:
Might be better to start with one of the open box based versions of Debian Dog.

What dog version could that be?

greetings

Wolfgang


You'll have problems if you try to use an SFS file built in a different system. I think you should plan on rebuilding your sfs's in Debian. The apt2sfs script makes it easier than Puppy. The good thing about Debian is that everything is well tested to work with each other. Add stuff from a different system is asking for trouble.

Take a look at the website https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/ and you'll see the versions. There are many (too many) choices. Xenial Dog (based on Ubuntu Xenial) might be your best choice.
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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 3040
Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 10:01    Post subject:  

why a new (old!) environment? I use on my PC full Debian / Ubuntu installations. and I did use Stretch Dog deepin. each dog, a new experience and loose of time! ok, this time both versions. 32 and 64 bit are available. but you have to rediscover the old KDE again that you did let behind A LOT of years ago!

(I understand the motivation: I use in my full installations LXQT because of the actual problems in KDE, but why back to the old KDE? And as integrated part of the system, not as simple extension!!! It was the same thing with Deepin but in that case, it a bit more comprehensible of the special background under which Deepin did appear!)
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 2588
Location: holland

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 12:15    Post subject:  

@der-schutzhund

In fact nothing to add to what dancytron answered already in detail (thanks Dan!)
Just try one of the (newer) Dogs I'd say, I never tried a Lazy puppy system, probably it has very different mechanisms for SFS support.

@backi, all
Uextract added to the repositories Jessie and Stretch
http://debiandog.github.io/Jessie/i386/Packages/Extra/uextract_1.0.1_i386.deb
https://fredx181.github.io/StretchDog/i386/Packages/Extra/uextract_1.0.1_i386.deb
Install with Synaptic or from terminal:
Code:
apt-get update
apt-get install uextract

Installing will add right-click actions to Thunar and Rox.
Backi, I'm not sure yet about your other suggestions, anyway, at the moment I'm busy with multiple things at the same time, I may look at it later (although most, as you said, is already supported in the Dogs)

@rcrsn51
Quote:
@Fred: Here is a new PWF that addresses your situation.

Under the Ethernet tab, the Mode list now has a "Down" option. Select it and click Configure.


Yes that works OK, thanks.

Another thing concerning peasywifi.
On DD-Stretch, when booting with cable unplugged there's more than a minute delay before X starts (because of many attemps to connect, somehow not a problem on Trinitydog, btw)
I've tried to find a solution (edited /etc/rc.d/rc.network) by only run udhcpc when cable plugged in. (check if)
Also I went a little further (very experimental) to make it detect the (strange) new interface names. (changes also in /etc/rc.d/rc.network)
Can you try (and have a look at the code) and say what you think ? (attached deb, remove fake .gz)
To test the situation with new unexpected interface names I removed /etc/systemd/network/99-default.link and rebooted.
Now my ethernet interface name is "ens1" and wlan is "wlp16s0" (but that's different for anyone else)

@oui
Quote:
why a new (old!) environment?.... why back to the old KDE?...

Well, simply because it's a very good DE, well being maintained by the Trinity team and it's rather light (for such a complete DE) (and... some may like it Smile)

Fred
peasywifi_4.3-1_i386.deb.gz
Description  peasywifi experimental (remove fake .gz)
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 11721
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 12:47    Post subject:  

@Fred: A few quick thoughts:

I have never experienced a long pause when booting off-cable. But it may be that Puppy backgrounds those startup routines, so you never see them running. They eventually timeout on their own.

The issue with "predictable-but-cryptic" device names is strange. I can't make them appear consistently in DD/TD, so I can't test them.

I looked at Puppy-Puduan. It shows the cryptic names at first boot. But on a reboot, the udev persistent-naming rule kicks in and the names revert to the conventional system.

I have been looking at adding a tool to the main peasywifi program that lets you set the eth0 and wlan0 names if the cryptic names are in play. It's basically the same code as you have in rc.network. But it would happen after the first boot. And it's irrelevant if the names revert back on the next boot.

This will take some thought.

Bill
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 11721
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 13:10    Post subject:  

@Fred: If I am reading the code correctly,it assumes that you have just one wired interface and one wireless. But that's not always true.

For example, you may prefer a USB WiFi adapter over your internal device.

In PWF, you can manually configure these devices exactly how you want them. But it takes at least one session to get them right.

I like the check_ifaces code. I will test that in Puppy to see if there are any side-effects.
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 2588
Location: holland

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 13:14    Post subject:  

@rcrsn51
Quote:
I have never experienced a long pause when booting off-cable. But it may be that Puppy backgrounds those startup routines, so you never see them running. They eventually timeout on their own.


Yes, probably different in puppy, I've been looking for a way to background the rc.network initscript process on DD-Stretch, but cant' find how yet.

Quote:
The issue with "predictable-but-cryptic" device names is strange. I can't make them appear consistently in DD/TD, so I can't test them.


Removing /etc/systemd/network/99-default.link and reboot with save will make them appear. (on Stretch based system)

Quote:
This will take some thought.


Sure.

EDIT:
Quote:
@Fred: If I am reading the code correctly,it assumes that you have just one wired interface and one wireless. But that's not always true.


Yes, indeed, as I said it's just very experimental what I did, maybe you can try to improve?.

Fred
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 11721
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 13:24    Post subject:  

Quote:
I've been looking for a way to background the rc.network initscript process on DD-Stretch, but cant' find how yet.

Is it possible for /etc/init.d/rc.network to be a script than runs
Code:
/etc/rc.d/rc.network &
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 2588
Location: holland

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 13:41    Post subject:  

Quote:
Is it possible for /etc/init.d/rc.network to be a script than runs
Code:
/etc/rc.d/rc.network &


From /etc/rc.local I will try later but I expect X will not start before rc.local is fiinished

But this piece of code works OK for me, it solves the problem. (EDIT no, can be better, see EDIT below
Code:
#  fredx181, run udhcpc only if ethernet cable is plugged in
if [ "$(cat /sys/class/net/$IFACE/carrier)" = "1" ]; then
         udhcpc -s /etc/pwf/udhcpc/default.script -n -t 5 -T 5 -x hostname:$(hostname) -i $IFACE
fi


The other things I changed concern me more (indeed what if more than only one ethernet and wireless interface)

EDIT:
Code:

/etc/rc.d/rc.network &

That works OK, X starts directly now while the udhcpc discover process is still busy, why I didn't think of that earlier Rolling Eyes , thanks.
Thats' better than the above code checking for carrier, I will just make simple new initscript with only inside /etc/rc.d/rc.network &

Fred
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2010
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 14:33    Post subject:  

@ der-schutzhund,

- Possibility to customize using a start script at booting:
Not sure it would provide everything you want, but all "DebianDogs" and "XenialDogs" use boot arguments, and which boot arguments are a choice you make.
- Updating via a shutdown-script when shutting down. At shut-down you have the option to Save changes or not. You can also Save change while the system is running. If an icon to do so isn't on the desktop, open a terminal and type, code: save2flash.


"- dynamic integration of SFS...
I would like to start each program via its own script. This script checks if a dependent module is already loaded and if it is not loaded automatically. Of course I define the dependent modules before. This is exactly how it works in my current system.

As mentioned, Apt2sfs will include necessary dependencies for any SFS you create. The ones you create yourself will have an ending of "squashfs" rather than SFS. But see below.

There are several ways to use SFSes. I'm not sure any can be loaded automatically at bootup. One way creates a script file adjacent to the SFS. To load the application, you click the script. It may be possible to create symlinks to these script in a folder in /root so you don't have to open to /mnt/home and scan thru all files looking for the script you want. I don't know to what extent these scripts can be modified.


- my current SFS should run (possibly after an adjustment)! All SFSes created for Puppies can be loaded. But only some may run and even those may require 'adjustments'.

I'm not sure which version of LazyPuppy you are using. There's one based on Lupu, one based on Precise, and if my memory isn't playing tricks, the latest one is based on Tahr. All, however, are base on Ubuntu binaries. TrinityDog is based on debian. Much in common with Ubuntu, but not identical. SFSes built for 'Ubuntu' Puppies may not include all dependencies as some of the dependencies may be provided by/included in the Puppy itself. A debiandog may lack them entirely.

MintPup (LST), http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=858430#858430 or XenialDog, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=901548#901548 being closer to your LazyPuppy, in their foundations may require less 'adjustments'. To find out if a required library is missing, browse to the binary/executable's folder, open a terminal and type, code: ldd EXACT-NAME-OF-BINARY. You'll receive a report of both the libraries it found and those 'NOT FOUND'. Those 'not found' may be available via synaptic or apt-get. If they are not, rather than to download them via a web-browser and install them --which may break your system-- it would be preferable if you downloaded them and rebuild the SFS to include them.

But I suggest you do the following. Keep your present system. Install TrinityDog, or XenialDog --if your computer will run 64-bit OSes, DebianDog64 or XenialDog64-- and experiment with their SFS capabilities. It took RSH (AKA LazyPuppy) hundreds of hours to create his unique operating system. Don't expect any 'Dog' to duplicate that without a lot of work. As both LazyPuppy and 'Dogs' only need their own folders, you may find your best solution is to have both, booting into whichever best fills your then current needs.

mikesLr
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 11721
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 15:53    Post subject:  

fredx181 wrote:
EDIT:
Code:

/etc/rc.d/rc.network &

That works OK, X starts directly now while the udhcpc discover process is still busy, why I didn't think of that earlier Rolling Eyes , thanks.
Thats' better than the above code checking for carrier, I will just make simple new initscript with only inside /etc/rc.d/rc.network &


Excellent.

Here are my thoughts about trying to auto-name the interfaces at bootup. The advantage of PWF is that it makes NO decisions for you. You get to manually configure it exactly how you want. That often means one or two restarts to get it right. In Puppy, that's not a problem - it usually takes a restart to disable the other network managers and make PWF the default.

There is also a learning curve. People who want PWF will take the time to figure it out. People who don't will use another network manager. I am not interested in automating features at the expense of flexibility.

In the long run, less code is always better.

The attached version adds a Names button in the Ethernet section. It uses some of your code to update the pwf.conf and interfaces files if cryptic device names are in play.

Bill

Last edited by rcrsn51 on Sun 30 Jul 2017, 20:34; edited 1 time in total
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belham2

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1303

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 16:39    Post subject:  

Hi Fred,

Hey, I know rcrsn51 and you are busy on Peasywifi, but if you get a chance, could you explain to me what rcrsn51 was talking about here:


http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=110835&start=165

I have tried 3 or 4 times today (in TD-Stretch) to make an devx-sfs of Debian's "build-essential". Not once has it worked. The sfs(es) created are just crap, and will not let me compile when I load them. Yet rcrsn51 says it is working in his TD-Stretch. What am I doing wrong? I am using your "Apt2sfs" script, temporarily installing "build-essentials", then getting the sfs made, copying it elsewhere for a moment, then rebooting while saving nothing (I either save or don't save on exit). Then on next boot-up, once everything is ready, I load the sfs that's supposed to have "build-essentials"-everything in it, and it supposedly loads, yet I cannot compile anything---even simple compiling jobs I have done many times before when build-essentials is installed like we are normally supposed to do it (from synaptic and its there for good, saved on exit).

So how to get an "build-essential" devx-sfs like rcrsn51 says he's got??? (all the packages were installed below from terminal using apt----when installed like this, I can compile no problems, but the moment I ask "apt2sfs" to do it's thing, it does create a SFS, but upon reboot and loading of this sfs, I cannot compile anything---it just doesn't work)

Thanks!
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 2588
Location: holland

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 17:00    Post subject:  

@rcrsn51

Quote:
In the long run, less code is always better.

The attached version adds a Names button in the Ethernet section. It uses some of your code to update the pwf.conf and interfaces files if cryptic device names are in play.


Yes, right, flexibility, thanks for the 'Names' button, ok I will make deb package later with your new changes, new initscript and rc.network script untouched.

@belham2

These are the packages for the devx I used (on Trinitydog-Stretch) with apt2sfs:
Code:
build-essential automake autoconf libtool pkg-config libcurl4-openssl-dev intltool libxml2-dev libgtk2.0-dev libnotify-dev libglib2.0-dev libevent-dev checkinstall upx-ucl cmake linux-headers-4.9.0-3-686-pae python2.7 python3 libc6-dev yasm libgtk2.0-dev bacon


You get very long .squashfs name then, so better rename to short one.

This should make the sames devx as this one:
https://github.com/DebianDog/trinitydog/releases/download/v2.0/61-DEVX-Stretch-2017-07-18.squashfs

Btw, you can't compile anything at all with "build-essential" ??, it's strange IMO, it should include the most important build tools.

EDIT: Just now I see your pic, I thought you just used the build-essential package but I see a whole list, you are sure that all these are real packages available in the (Stretch) repository?
EDIT2: The build-essential package will add a lot more, output of just build-essential install:
root@stretch:~# apt-get install build-essential
Reading package lists... Done
.....
.....
The following NEW packages will be installed:
binutils build-essential cpp cpp-6 dpkg-dev g++ g++-6 gcc gcc-6 libasan3
libatomic1 libc-dev-bin libc6-dev libcc1-0 libcilkrts5 libdpkg-perl
libgcc-6-dev libisl15 libitm1 libmpc3 libmpfr4 libmpx2 libstdc++-6-dev
libubsan0 linux-libc-dev make
0 upgraded, 26 newly installed, 0 to remove and 27 not upgraded.
Need to get 39.9 MB of archives.
After this operation, 165 MB of additional disk space will be used.

But that doesn't mean you have to add all these apt2sfs, just build-essential is enough, the rest will also be installed in the squashfs created.

Fred

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belham2

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1303

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 17:36    Post subject:  

fredx181 wrote:


@belham2

These are the packages for the devx I used (on Trinitydog-Stretch) with apt2sfs:
Code:
build-essential automake autoconf libtool pkg-config libcurl4-openssl-dev intltool libxml2-dev libgtk2.0-dev libnotify-dev libglib2.0-dev libevent-dev checkinstall upx-ucl cmake linux-headers-4.9.0-3-686-pae python2.7 python3 libc6-dev yasm libgtk2.0-dev bacon


You get very long .squashfs name then, so better rename to short one.

This should make the sames devx as this one:
https://github.com/DebianDog/trinitydog/releases/download/v2.0/61-DEVX-Stretch-2017-07-18.squashfs

Btw, you can't compile anything at all with "build-essential" ??, it's strange IMO, it should include the most important build tools.

EDIT: Just now I see your pic, I thought you just used the build-essential package but I see a whole list, you are sure that all these are real packages available in the (Stretch) repository?
EDIT2: The build-essential package will add a lot more, output of just build-essential install:
root@stretch:~# apt-get install build-essential
Reading package lists... Done
.....
.....
The following NEW packages will be installed:
binutils build-essential cpp cpp-6 dpkg-dev g++ g++-6 gcc gcc-6 libasan3
libatomic1 libc-dev-bin libc6-dev libcc1-0 libcilkrts5 libdpkg-perl
libgcc-6-dev libisl15 libitm1 libmpc3 libmpfr4 libmpx2 libstdc++-6-dev
libubsan0 linux-libc-dev make
0 upgraded, 26 newly installed, 0 to remove and 27 not upgraded.
Need to get 39.9 MB of archives.
After this operation, 165 MB of additional disk space will be used.

But that doesn't mean you have to add all these apt2sfs, just build-essential is enough, the rest will also be installed in the squashfs created.

Fred



Thanks, Fred, for replying. Gonna sleep on it tonight, try again tomorrow. Rcrsn51, in that other thread, made it sound like it was no big deal to get an "sfs" in TD-Stretch that is loadable on-demand for compiling on demand. Maybe I misunderstood. Anyhow, a night's sleep will help Wink
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