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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Tahr pup won't boot from USB, Lucid will
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frenchy

Joined: 31 Oct 2017
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue 31 Oct 2017, 09:58    Post subject:  Tahr pup won't boot from USB, Lucid will  

I've got a really strange problem with my Asus laptop X71SL.I've been running Ubuntu on it for a couple of years with no problems,until one day it wouldn't boot up and I had a blank screen with a blinking underscore.Rather than go through days of looking for potential fixes I decided to try another version of Linux.I've got quite a few versions on CD and USB so picked up the first that came to hand,PC Linux stupidly I installed it without doing any homework.I'd used a 32 bit disc which is no longer supported.So I tried several other discs and usb versions but none would boot until I tried a usb of Lucid 528 which seems to work OK.So full of confidence I made a usb of puppylinux/puppy-tahr/iso/tahrpup -6.0-CE,but this version wouldn't boot.Is there anything I can do while I'm in Lucid to repair the boot system like the boot repair that is part of Ubuntu? Regards David
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ally


Joined: 19 May 2012
Posts: 1588
Location: lincoln, uk

PostPosted: Tue 31 Oct 2017, 10:07    Post subject:  

booting cd or usb?

my old asus would only boot from right hand usb sockets?!

Smile
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 9533
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Tue 31 Oct 2017, 10:22    Post subject:  

Quote:
tahrpup -6.0-CE

Tahrpup 6.0 was a little buggy.
It has been updated and bug fixed.
Tahrpup 6.0.5 and 6.0.6
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/puppy-tahr/iso/tahrpup%20-6.0-CE/

Quote:
anything I can do while I'm in Lucid to repair the boot system like the boot repair that is part of Ubuntu?

With this being a Ubuntu problem, not much.
Could be the boot loader Ubuntu uses. Idea
If you have a Ubuntu install CD or USB. Could try reinstalling the boot loader.

In Puppy.
Have to do this from a Puppy booted from a CD or USB.
The computers hard drive has to not be mounted.

Could try using Gparted program to do a check on the hard drive partition(s).
Right click on a listed partition.
Select check.
This will see if anything is wrong with the file system on the partition and correct any errors it finds.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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frenchy

Joined: 31 Oct 2017
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed 01 Nov 2017, 05:36    Post subject:  

ally wrote:
booting cd or usb?

my old asus would only boot from right hand usb sockets?!

Smile

Tried disk but no joy,and as with yours will only boot from right hand USB.
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frenchy

Joined: 31 Oct 2017
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed 01 Nov 2017, 05:45    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
Quote:
tahrpup -6.0-CE

Tahrpup 6.0 was a little buggy.
It has been updated and bug fixed.
Tahrpup 6.0.5 and 6.0.6
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/puppy-tahr/iso/tahrpup%20-6.0-CE/

Quote:
anything I can do while I'm in Lucid to repair the boot system like the boot repair that is part of Ubuntu?

With this being a Ubuntu problem, not much.
Could be the boot loader Ubuntu uses. Idea
If you have a Ubuntu install CD or USB. Could try reinstalling the boot loader.

In Puppy.
Have to do this from a Puppy booted from a CD or USB.
The computers hard drive has to not be mounted.

Could try using Gparted program to do a check on the hard drive partition(s).
Right click on a listed partition.
Select check.
This will see if anything is wrong with the file system on the partition and correct any errors it finds.

After I posted my question I managed to get 6.0 to load but as you say it's a bit problematic,I have a wireless keyboard and it froze the usb port it was connected to so mouse was stuck.It's really odd in that it won't run ubuntu versions from disc or usb.It booted the Peppermint disc up to the start page,then when I entered the try without loading option the flashing underscore reappeared.Looks like I'll have to go the Gparted route,although I've always tried to stay away from playing with HD partitions. Wink
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 9533
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Wed 01 Nov 2017, 07:16    Post subject:  

Quote:
I'll have to go the Gparted route,although I've always tried to stay away from playing with HD partitions. Wink

Using Gparted to check the file system on a partition, is not going to do any damage. If it finds a problem it will fix it.

I just used it to fix a problem I was having, where a partition would only mount read only.
It was a NTFS format, and the Linux program that accesses Window formats, will only do read only, if there is anything wrong with the format (file system).

You could be dealing with hardware failure.
Hard drives do not work forever. They do go bad.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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frenchy

Joined: 31 Oct 2017
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 09:19    Post subject:  

Thank you for the help and suggestions Gents.I ended up using Gparted to check the disc partitions and they were fine.I downloaded a 6.06 version and did a full install after formating the HDD.During the install I wasn't prompted to create a password and even though I used a USB with heavy encryption and password to do it with, anyone could boot my laptop and use it.Can you add a password retrospectively? I've used Rox to create two desktop folders so that I could use my portable hard drive to put some music and videos on the machine,but after mounting the drive and trying to transfer files the folders won't open.It's becoming very obvious Puppy wasn't meant for real beginners like me,but I'm sure I'll have an interesting time learning.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2020
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 13:23    Post subject:  

Hi frenchy,

The problem isn't that Puppy is difficult. There is, however, a three-fold problem. The first is that most web-posts aren't dated. Those new to puppy may have come to it following advice which, even if correct when written, is obsolete. Compare: "The best way to winterize your car" when the 'car' discussed in the article is a Model T Ford, or one of its contemporaries.

The second part of the problem is that one of the best ways to overcome the first part of the problem would be to have current postings on DistroWatch. But DistroWatch only accepts postings from a "Distro's" creator. Barry Kauler, Puppy's creator, retired 3 years ago. Perhaps 01micko, the current unofficial leader of the Woof build-system AFAIK, might suffice. Unlike Barry K during most of his stewardship of Puppy, 01micko isn't retired from 'real world obligations' to employers and has a young family.

The third part of the problem is that Puppy isn't a Distro in the sense that DistroWatch expects it to be. It is rather a family of operating systems which, for the last 3 years, have been created primarily using the Woof-build system, but includes pre-woof-builds and other methods of creating operating systems otherwise conforming to Puppy standards and incorporating some applications common to all Puppies. The analogy would be that neither Peppermint Linux, nor Zorin, nor any other Linux Distro based on Ubuntu could be discussed on DistroWatch as they are based on Ubuntu. And, indeed, posts about Ubuntu, itself, aren't allowed because it is based on debian. This part of the problem is further complicated as, unlike 'other Distros' which actually produce an 'Official' published version from time to time, Puppy encourages anyone who wants to to Remaster any existing version and publish the Remaster.

But the biggest part of the problem, the fourth part, is that unlike almost every other operating system -- Windows, Macs, Linuxes -- Puppy is NOT designed to be run as a FULL INSTALL. It was not designed to require an entire Partition. The ability to run it as a FULL install was developed in order to speed-up its operation if you are deploying it on a computer with 256 Mbs of RAM or less.

It was originally created to run from a CD, copying the information/files from the CD into Random Access Memory, so that Puppy's actual operating system would only be in Random Access Memory . That ability was extended to enable Puppy to run from a Folder on any partition: essentially by copying the files which would otherwise be found on a CD into such folder. One name for this system was "co-existent": Puppy can co-exist on a partition also used by another operating system. But that name didn't catch on. The name which did was 'Frugal': Puppy frugally uses your 'Storage' medium, your drives/partitions.

Most of Puppy's development has been to take advantage of that unique way of operating.

But, as a consequence of the first three parts of the problem, that is something you wouldn't know, which might lead to the assumption that 'Frugal' means something like 'cut-down', limited. And that results in the 'real problem': newbies attempting to run what is both the wrong Puppy and to do so in a way it never was designed to run. It is the efforts to overcome these which are difficult.

There is nothing you can do with a Full install that you can't also do with a Frugal Install. And there are a great many things which a Frugal install can do which a Full install can't. One of those things is to encrypt the SaveFile. A SaveFile holds the settings and customizations you've made and the applications you've added. A Full Install doesn't use a SaveFile. Which is why, having done a Full install, you weren't offered the opportunity to create any SaveFile, including an encrypted one.

Before you get too deep into 'fleshing out' your Full install Puppy, I suggest that you do the following:

1. Create a Folder on the drive/partition on which tahrpup is located and give it an unique name: Boot into tahrpup, Left-Click the desktop-drive icon which, immediately on bootup, has an 'x' at its top-right; Right-Click an empty space, and from the popup-menu, select New>Directory and give it an unique name; perhaps 'tahr2', which I'll use for illustration purposes.

2. From the CD/DVD or USB-Key you used to install tahrpup (or Left-Click the Tarhpup ISO and from the popup window) copy the following files into that uniquely named folder: initrd.gz, vmlinuz, puppy_tahr_6.0.5.sfs and zdrv_tahr_6.0.5.sfs. If you Left-Clicked the ISO, Left-Click it again to unmount/close it.

3. Run grub4dos: Menu>system>grub4dos bootloader config. This will create a boot-menu listing both versions of Tahrpup and any other operating system you have on your computer. [[b]Caution[/b]: grub4dos will not work if your computer boots via (U)Efi, a system build into computers manufactured for Windows 10, some Windows 8/8.1 and Macs. See this thread: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=858159#858159.

4. Reboot, booting into your 'new' tahrpup. You can tell which tahrpup is which because the boot-menu will distinguish between them.

5. Complete tahrpup's First-Run Setup Routine, i.e., localization, wifi, etc.

6. Reboot: Menu>Exit>Reboot. You'll be offered the opportunity to Save your changes. Take it. Recommended will be the partition/drive the new tahrpup booted from. Take it. If the new Tahrpup is on a Linux Formatted drive/partition, you'll be offered the opportunity to create either a SaveFile or a SaveFolder. You want a SaveFile even though (for reasons beyond me) SaveFolders are recommended. You'll then be offered the opportunity to have the SaveFile formatted as either Linux Ext2, Ext3 or Ext4. Choose Ext2. You can only encrypt a SaveFile formatted as Linux Ext2.. You'll want "Strong Encryption". Anything else can easily be read from another operating system.

As far as How Big a SaveFile? I don't know how many applications you may want to install. So I suggest you give yourself lots of room. Maybe 2 Gb*.

7. Reboot into your new tahrpup. You can now delete everything which is not within its uniquely named folder, EXCEPT IF YOU SEE THE FOLLOWING FILES ON THAT DRIVE/PARTITION --gldr, menu.lst, menu-advanced.lst-- DO NOT DELETE THEM. Again, Left-click the drive-icon with the 'x'. DO NOT click "Rox's Eye" to show hidden files. If there are any hidden files, you probably need them. They were hidden so you wouldn't accidentally delete them. To delete files and folders , just Right-Click them and, from the popup menu, select 'delete'. When you're finished

8. Immediately, re-run grub4dos: Menu>system>grub4dos bootloader config.

9. Before shutting down, File-browse into tahrpup's folder. right-click an empty space and create a new folder, perhaps with the name 'protect'.

10. Reboot. Scroll to the bottom of the boot-menu and select Advanced Menu. Then Select " RAM mode\nBoot up Puppy without pupsave". It will boot into tarhpup without using your SaveFile. Browse to the unique folder, Left-PRESS the tahrsave file and drag it onto the 'protect' folder. Select copy. You can't accurately copy a SaveFile this way while it's in use. [But there are applications you may be able to install which can].

SaveFiles formatted as Linux Ext2 are more prone to corruption than others. If you ever have a problem booting into tahrpup, you can boot by selecting Advanced Menu>RAM mode, delete the problem SaveFile and copy the 'protected' SaveFile from the 'protect' folder to the tahr2 folder by opening file-manager windows to both, Left-press, drag, select copy.

From time to time, as you install new pets or change settings, after you're satisfied everything is working well, you'll want to copy your currently used SaveFile into your 'protect folder'; optionally deleting an older 'protected' SaveFile.

Strongly suggested reading: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=662326#662326 and http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=468769#468769

mikesLr

* Alternatively, you can make an initially small (maybe 32 Mb) SaveFile containing only the setup customization you need. After copying that to the 'protect' folder, you can boot into tahrpup2 and select Menu>Utilities>Resize Personal Storage file and reboot to make the SaveFile being used larger. On the right-hand side of the Taskbar will be an icon --mine looks like a Cylinder. Its color reflects how full is the SaveFile: Green means Good, Yellow Caution, Red Danger. Placing your mouse-cursor on it will reveal its size and how much has been used. Never try to install any new applications if your SaveFile is below 150 Mbs. That's one of the quickest ways to corrupt a SaveFile. The websites from which you downloaded Pets and debs usually show their sized. If not, you can Right-Click them and select "properties". They are 'compressed' files. When you install them they will take up to 3 times that space in your SaveFile.

Last edited by mikeslr on Fri 03 Nov 2017, 20:41; edited 1 time in total
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Puppyt

Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 756
Location: Gatton, Queensland

PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 19:46    Post subject:  

Excellent explanation, mikesLr, thank you so much. Really appreciate your outlining of the various 'gotchas' for a given installation process, great links in your backgrounding, too. Responding here as a way of bookmarking your post. Cheers!
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 9533
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 21:04    Post subject:  

Quote:
I've used Rox to create two desktop folders so that I could use my portable hard drive to put some music and videos on the machine,but after mounting the drive and trying to transfer files the folders won't open.

These folders should be working if you created them correctly.

Give details on how you created the desktop folders?
You did what?
You see what?

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I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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