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BionicDog (updated: 2018-06-04)
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 1020

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun 2018, 15:02    Post subject:  

If he makes changes to peasyglue - no objections on your part?
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irishrm


Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun 2018, 16:08    Post subject:  

Thanks rcrsn51 for the reply.
I did as you suggested and got the message that wlan0 was not active.
As I said I can manage fine without it so there is no need to waste your time on it if it presents any difficulty.
Thanks again.
irishrm.
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ITSMERSH

Joined: 02 May 2018
Posts: 911

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun 2018, 18:47    Post subject:  

Hi.

A fellow musician and a friend of mine made a nice gift to me - his old Samsung N150 Netbook.

I made several tests of different Puppy Linux Systems to check how and if they would work.

A first test was made using my LazY Puppy Art Studio based on Tahr 6.0.2, but this has used full capacity of both two cores of the processor, so not usable.

I went back to the earliest Puppy I got locally existing which is my original LazY Puppy based on Lucid Puppy. Everything went fine. Appr. 3% of capacity of both two cores of the processor.

My next try was L.A.S.S.I.E. a Precise based Puppy, which returned to use appr. 60% of capacity of both two cores of the processor.

To my absolutely surprise, BionicDog returned very well running on this Netbook. Currently playing music with Gnome MPlayer at 19% to 21% of capacity of both two cores of the processor.

Pretty good, well done that BionicDog! Very Happy

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Beware of the Dog ähem nic007! Wink
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2075
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun 2018, 20:37    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
PeasyGlue contains some other bashisms in addition to the "export -f" issue. I am not much interested in this conversion project.

But you can contact wiak and see what he is doing.


I wouldn't release any conversions without your explicit permission, Bill. I wouldn't like people messing with my own programs without a good reason either. But if you are happy for me to convert peasyglue for anikin and others who would like to run it (or possible others of your fine utilities) on dash-based systems I'd be fine with doing that for any of your programs - I am quite in practice at doing these conversions now, so wouldn't be a burden. Of course I cannot guarantee any of my work - I could mess up and users would have to accept that limitation in any conversions I ever do. However, doesn't matter either way - and I respect your own interests and rights to your own works either way. I'm more interested in my own programs being dash-compatible and for new util/apps I write (if any).

EDIT: at least a few of us would like to be able to run DebianDogs with dash as the shell, as an efficiency/speed/Debian-compatability measure, without losing lots of functionality. That's the only reason gtkwialog was created and to allow new apps to be written that will be compatible on Debian-based dash systems. That's really the only interest I have in the project myself. But I can easily do conversions for my own system anyway. Main problem for me is zigbert's Pburn - that's a big and very useful program(!) but a big job to ever make compatible with dash...

wiak
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13129
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun 2018, 12:36    Post subject:  

I have given this some thought and decided the following: the most fail-safe way to run a gtkdialog app in a non-bash environment is to entirely remove the bashisms, not create an alternate method of running those bashisms.

To that end, I am posting a non-bash version of PeasyGlue for anikin to test.
peasyglue-nobash_2.1.deb.gz
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2075
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun 2018, 13:15    Post subject: misleading claims against bash as a programming language.  

rcrsn51 wrote:
I have given this some thought and decided the following: the most fail-safe way to run a gtkdialog app in a non-bash environment is to entirely remove the bashisms, not create an alternate method of running those bashisms.


No problem, anything you want to do with your own apps is fine and of no concern to me.

However i find your statement both entirely misleading to others (to the point of being false) and an attack on my work with gtkwialog. Bash was designed as a more powerful programmer's shell and it is no less safe to use than a simpler, less full-featured, shell such as original /bin/sh. As a longtime C programmer, in a professional capacity, I am well aware of what is 'safe' or not.

Your choice of wording (particulary the use of the term 'bashisms') imply that using gtkwialog via bash is somehow inherently less safe than using a program written in a simpler shell language - that is patently untrue.

"Bashisms" simply mean code written using the more powerful features of bash, which in no way makes a program prone to failure whether the shell used by the main system is some other shell or not - the problem was that legacy gtkdialog inflexibly forces commands to use /bin/sh, which certainly rendered its bash driven code failure prone. Gtkwialog, on the other hand, has no such restriction and can be safely used with bash scripts (including the powerful extended features bash offers the programmer) - no matter what the system shell is.

Obviously a poor programmer could render a program useless if they used bash code along with gtkwialog and then ran it through /bin/sh, but that is just poor coding and another matter altogether.

The term 'bashism' was simply invented to warn against writing a system script in bash if the user wanted to run that code via /bin/sh. Writing a user application, rather than a system script, could be done in any level of programming language be it bash, C, python, lua, whatever - none of these are more failure prone than ash or dash. Bashism isn't a religion either, despite the way some people use the word so misleadingly. Of course you can't run a bash program using ash or dash as the interpreter; gtkwialog doesn't force that situation on anyone.

EDIT:
I am very disappointed in your negative attitude, in which you purposively rewrite one program to discourage simple conversion of all, but that attitude can at least be disregarded. Your programs are easily, simply, and quickly converted to run perfectly well with gtkwialog as it happens, with perfect safety in the result - no re-write to Posix ever was necessary at all; but do what you like - some of us don't have time to rewrite programs with less powerful shell language. Nothing wrong with writing new programs using ash or dash or bash for that matter (or converting to Posix if so desired) - depends how much functionality a programmer wants from the coding language they use. Totally rubbish to suggest bash (or bash with gtkwialog) is somehow unsafe though. Comments like yours simply amount to conservative jealously against development progress you clearly see as a threat to yourself, which is a shame to others in the community who have to suffer as a result of such code-protectionism. This is open-source code so yes of course your code and mine and everyone elses could be forked if not satisfying some need. Having said that, I have no personal interest in your code - aside from Peasywifi, which works well for me in practice - but it is not essential to me either.

wiak
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 4481
Location: holland

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun 2018, 13:59    Post subject:  

Just thinking (but maybe it's me because my base language is not english) there's a difference in "fail-safe", maybe meant by rcrsn51 as "converting to using gtkwialog" can cause unexpected bugs and "safe" in the sense of "secure" (how wiak seems to interpret it)
Just my 2 cents.

Fred

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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2075
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun 2018, 14:10    Post subject:  

gtkwialog appropriately written with bash is every bit as 'fail-safe' as gtkdialog appropriately written with simpler shell language. The comment to the contrary was entirely misleading, which is intolerable to me, being thus little more than a thinly-veiled attack on my development effort. If he wants to waste his time re-writing simple programs that are particularly easy to 'safely' convert, that's up to him of course. Re-writing a program of any complexity, is far more likely to introduce bugs; though some programs are easier to convert than others - but that is a different matter entirely.

William
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stemsee

Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Posts: 2572
Location: In The Way

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun 2018, 14:59    Post subject:  

Concerning Wifi-TrayNet and Wifi-Scanner the previous post, as you would know by now, was buggy as hell on BionicDog, but not on Bionic puppy or fatdog. While gathering info for the deps I noticed that dhcpcd is not available only dhcpcd5, I then reworked the script to function with dhcpcd5 which differs somewhat from dhcpcd. Also the ifconfig and iwconfig results differ significantly from the other derivatives I use. The result is this rewritten version ... I wonder if Rcrsn51 went through similar for peasywifi on BD. Peasywifi uses dhcpcd (previously I though it was udhcpc), according to its properties, and states that dhcpcd5 is incompatible, so when Wifi-TrayNet (actually dhcpcd5) gets installed Peasywifi gets removed and vice versa. Which means there is NO conflict! I didn't realize that would be the result of using dhcpcd5. But apart from that small thing, if they were installed on the same system, I could only see autocon (peasy in /root/Startup and /home/puppy/Startup (still there after apt-get un-installed it ... auotcon for TrayNet is in /etc/xdg/Startup or if that does not exist then /root/Startup ($HOME/Startup actually). Whereas on occasion they both use wpa_supplicant.conf in tmp, TrayNet now creates all tmp files and pipes in /tmp/Wifi-TrayNet and likewise does scanner in /tmp/Wifi-Scanner, thus removing any potential interference. Add to that the fact that either app can select alternative interfaces to work on, there is even less chance of interference. Perhaps the one directory were interference may occur could be /var/tmp . Config files for peasy are in /etc/pwf while TrayNet and Scanner use /root/.wifi-connect/{profiles, geometry, static}(actually $HOME/.wifi-connect ... preserving multi-user, I think). The coding is very different I have my own , verbose un-tutored style, and I like a plethora of exotic features. So my flavour of app is not for everyone! But it is working if you want to try!
Last edited by stemsee on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 08:39; edited 1 time in total
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13129
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun 2018, 15:51    Post subject:  

stemsee wrote:
Peasywifi uses dhcpcd (previously I though it was udhcpc)

I started using busybox udhcpc in Puppy PeasyWifi in 2016.

That version was ported to the Dogs last year and continues as such.
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stemsee

Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Posts: 2572
Location: In The Way

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jun 2018, 16:58    Post subject:  

I misread the properties; dhcpcd an dhcpcd5 were both in the conflicts section!
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 1020

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun 2018, 01:51    Post subject:
Subject description: peasyglue-nobash_2.1
 

rcrsn51 wrote:
I have given this some thought and decided the following: the most fail-safe way to run a gtkdialog app in a non-bash environment is to entirely remove the bashisms, not create an alternate method of running those bashisms.

To that end, I am posting a non-bash version of PeasyGlue for anikin to test.

This version runs with dash (and bash). Am I happy? Yes and no. I got what I wanted - peasyglue runs on my pure Debian Live system. Unhappy, because of the misunderstanding between you and wiak. Having pushed both of you, I now have a guilty feeling. I'm sure "fail-safe" wasn't meant as an insult. "Optimal" would have been a better choice, though, me thinks. I can't imagine either of you guys insulting others. My simplistic instinct is that the work can be continued in parallel and phases. At the end of the day, the community, Debian and Linux will benefit from the work of both of you.
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13129
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun 2018, 07:25    Post subject:  

@anikin: Glad to hear that it worked for you.

I just borrowed some ideas from zigbert and (I think) step on how to handle the exported functions.

You get the improved performance that comes with dash because those functions don't have to run in bash.
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2075
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun 2018, 07:59    Post subject:  

For a simple program performance difference of dash/gtkdialog capable program is probably negligible and will only apply to systems that don't use bash as /bin/sh underneath (such indeed as Debian/Ubuntu pristine). Legacy gtkdialog forces the use of the underlying system shell for every aspect of its command processing, which is certainly going to be inefficient on Puppys and Dogs, which both use bash as system shell, as they stand currently. However, as long as you are happy, the world is surely a happier place.

EDIT: Just took a look. Calling up a separate function file every time function is called is certainly a slow.......... technique when disc I/O accesses are always required unless that is you are storing the functions file in RAM based tmp, which is the method I advocated (I haven't noticed).

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=994319#994319

Anyway, thought you might appreciate my negative criticism in response to your lack of 'interest' and denigration of better methods. Case of misleading advertising I'd say, but each to their own right enough.

Your original program was better organised though, and the converted version I sent you would have done the job perfectly well were it not that you had a fako 'point' to make. eek...
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13129
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun 2018, 08:44    Post subject:  

irishrm wrote:
As I said I can manage fine without it ...

This is the same situation that occurs in Puppy with the Broadcom wl driver - you have to compile it separately for your specific platform. That requires setting up a devx environment.

Fred has posted a devx for BionicDog. When I have some time, I can do this, but I would need to know exactly what kernel version you are using.
Code:
uname -r


Puppy has a clever work-around for this situation - you can do a kernel-switch and use a pre-existing driver package. That's not always so easy in the Dogs.
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