hey musher
dont leave us
stay with the forum
we would be lonely without you
every family has to put up with annoyances
but i think everyone really means well
wanderer
New sub-forum for official Puppylinux releases
Just saw that animation today and immediately thought of you, and also talking about deviating the thread... well...musher0 wrote:Do not speak in parables, Galbi.Galbi wrote:@musher0: are you listening well?
http://linksdv.com/ruleta/bala.php?i=11 ... bd207c6cfb
What do you want me to hear, exactly?
Remember: [b][i]"pecunia pecuniam parere non potest"[/i][/b]
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Sailor Enceladus
- Posts: 1543
- Joined: Mon 22 Feb 2016, 19:43
well my attempt to make a official puppy thread didn't work out
as i found it was redundant
and actually distracted attention from the proper source of the info
mavrothal
i dont know how the software for the forum works
but maybe opening an "empty" subforum
for official woof-ce puppies would not be difficult
one could ask
no harm done
then you guys could put the official puppy threads there
and the puppy derivatives could be for puppy based projects
and the puppy projects could be for non puppy based projects
everyone could move their threads voluntarily if they feel like it
anyway its time for me to stop annoying people
and go back to my box
good luck
wanderer
as i found it was redundant
and actually distracted attention from the proper source of the info
mavrothal
i dont know how the software for the forum works
but maybe opening an "empty" subforum
for official woof-ce puppies would not be difficult
one could ask
no harm done
then you guys could put the official puppy threads there
and the puppy derivatives could be for puppy based projects
and the puppy projects could be for non puppy based projects
everyone could move their threads voluntarily if they feel like it
anyway its time for me to stop annoying people
and go back to my box
good luck
wanderer
Hi Wanderer !
I think :
" You`re just a soul who's intentions are good-----Oh Lord, please don't let him be misunderstood "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckv6-yhnIY
Regards !
I think :
" You`re just a soul who's intentions are good-----Oh Lord, please don't let him be misunderstood "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckv6-yhnIY
Regards !
-
Mike Walsh
- Posts: 6351
- Joined: Sat 28 Jun 2014, 12:42
- Location: King's Lynn, UK.
Mm...
Probably not my place to make any kind of comment here, but (notwithstanding all the arguments over moderating/additional sub-forums/administering/forking, etc.), it seems to me that each and every one of us could play his/her part in helping to keep the forum better 'organised'.
Quite simply, it boils down to this: put a wee bit of careful thought into where a thread should be posted, before doing so. (And no; I'm not painting myself as whiter than white here; I'm probably just as guilty of past misdemeanours in this respect.)
I do agree than John does not need extra messing about. He's kind enough to host the Forum, and cover the cost of doing so out of his own pocket. We all, every one of us, owe him a huge debt of gratitude for that.....and such generosity should never be forgotten, or overlooked.
Mike
Probably not my place to make any kind of comment here, but (notwithstanding all the arguments over moderating/additional sub-forums/administering/forking, etc.), it seems to me that each and every one of us could play his/her part in helping to keep the forum better 'organised'.
Quite simply, it boils down to this: put a wee bit of careful thought into where a thread should be posted, before doing so. (And no; I'm not painting myself as whiter than white here; I'm probably just as guilty of past misdemeanours in this respect.)
I do agree than John does not need extra messing about. He's kind enough to host the Forum, and cover the cost of doing so out of his own pocket. We all, every one of us, owe him a huge debt of gratitude for that.....and such generosity should never be forgotten, or overlooked.
Mike
Tell me, Mike, what kind of generous soul tolerates personal attacks onMike Walsh wrote:Mm...
(..)
I do agree than John does not need extra messing about. He's kind enough to host the Forum, and cover the cost of doing so out of his own pocket. We all owe him a huge debt of gratitude for that.....and such generosity should never be forgotten, or overlooked.
Mike
the users of his forum?
As far as i am concerned, I owe the man nothing,
1) in as much as I contributed enough topics and help and scripts here
to make HIS forum interesting and worth visiting. You too, and a lot of
other contributors here, if we stay in that logic. We have paid him back
in content.
On another level, I owe the man nothing,
2) because I had to defend and prove myself numerous times against
any "personal attackers" he did not find fit to weed out or cut short.
Is he tolerating this because:
-- it is spicing up the action on his forum OR
-- he hates Francophones generally (the French Puppyists bore the brunt
of his free-for-all policy and major Francophone Puppy devs have now
left Puppy) OR
-- he hates me personally (although I don't think he would have reason
to since we never met).
That is all I will say on this subject of his free-for-all policy for now.
About the cost of maintaining this forum, of keeping it up, it could be
next to nothing if it is in the "hidden" part of a business site J. Murga
would have. If so (but we do not officially know), the costs of
maintaining this Puppy forum would be -- at least in certain jurisdictions
-- deductible from income tax of the company site. Therefore, close to
zilch overall.
BFN.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
We have to admit the moderation is rather lax. But sometimes is enforced on the wrong people: e.g. people arguing with musher0.
I guess no one else has to right to defy the rules.
This man (or troll should i say), is known for attacking and degrading people out of the bue, then when he is in the line of fire having a taste of his own medicine, someone will pay the price, and it's not him.
When he is not Pelo'ing or Hamoudou'ing, he seems rather normal, but it's just a masquerade.
And then come the accusations of raycism, out of the blue he'll accuse you of having something against french canadians, because you're a Nazi, even when you're darker than black, so you have to play along. All because he saw the english slaughter the native french canadien and forced him to learn the language. The forum users have to pay for that.
Even now we see his delusions of grandeur and nothing happens.
I guess no one else has to right to defy the rules.
This man (or troll should i say), is known for attacking and degrading people out of the bue, then when he is in the line of fire having a taste of his own medicine, someone will pay the price, and it's not him.
When he is not Pelo'ing or Hamoudou'ing, he seems rather normal, but it's just a masquerade.
And then come the accusations of raycism, out of the blue he'll accuse you of having something against french canadians, because you're a Nazi, even when you're darker than black, so you have to play along. All because he saw the english slaughter the native french canadien and forced him to learn the language. The forum users have to pay for that.
Even now we see his delusions of grandeur and nothing happens.
There is no problem with the organisation of the forum aside from individuals being sarcastic to others, attacking the work and comments of others, and being basically plain rude. Personally I'd like to see some tighter regulation in that sense of the forum being more closely moderated but considering the number of new posts on here everyday that would be a huge moderation task and far too much to realistically expect from any volunteer moderators.
Main problem with the forum, in my own opinion, is the actual lack of acceptance by some members to anything else but traditional Puppy being represented on it. Too late guys - this forum has always been about developer freedom and never about the fanaticism, though those who boycott or deride the good non-Puppy work of others are certainly only playing the role of fanatics.
Fact is, the forum has grown and expanded in that sense - it is multi-distribution with some if not all of that being inspired by original Puppy. Why anyone has a problem with alternatives being available beats me. That may not have been the original purpose of the forum, since it was given a 'puppy' title, but its users were also given freedom to develop as they saw fit - the result has been various alternatives to traditional Puppy that offer at least similar facilities.
Non-woof'd and non-traditional distributions are in no way 'subordinate' in terms of importance on this forum - if anything they are expanding and it is Puppy itself that needs less space on the forum. Users and developers dictate the status quo in that sense, never fanatics. Puppy, as always, can be as good or bad a distribution, as its developers work proves to make it; but there has never been any 'competition' - many of us use many types of system, depending what best suits our needs and interests.
What I find most ridiculous is that even one or two of the officially designated Puppy steward's have made clearly hostile comments against the Dogs. We are all just users or developers and equal in this real world - why you have to have 'one Puppy to rule them all' beats me - the concept is childish and reality is different. Open your eyes. If Puppy loses users that would be a fair indication that users prefer something else - if it doesn't lose users, fine and good - it doesn't matter. This is a forum where users are free to develop whatever interests them - at least in that sense, the loose moderation is very good indeed because it allows a kind of creative development that is hard to come across anywhere else. Puppy may be a pedigree of its own distinct design but the hybrid mongrels inherit all the best genes, which is good for small system Linux development generally.
Puppy Steward's have no more importance in the overall scheme of things than any other system developers and no more rights to dictate John Murga forum than anyone else. Only John Murga could decide to limit the diversity and hybrid creativity this forum nowadays is all about.
One change, in this argumentative situation, that would help resolve the nonsense is for the forum title to change from murga-linux.com/puppy to something like murga-linux.com/kennels, but even that change, which would more truly show the actual situation, might be too much work to bother making in practice.
Maybe the Dogs should have a FAQ (similar to the Puppy FAQ), for its many users, that states that Puppy is accepted as being allowed to share its kennel - after all it is a bigger Dog if we are going to be truthful about this.
http://puppylinux.com/faq.html
Puppy FAQ: "About other Puppy Linux-like distributions"
"About Puppy Linux Team": These are only traditional Puppy Linux stewards, who are only 'stewards' of Puppy's woof-CE build system. Nothing to do with the Dogs, who have their own organisation team. And puppy's woof-CE stewards have no more than anyone else here to do with this forum's organisation.
Personally, I've always developed work for and on both Pups and the Dogs since first joining this forum in 2007 (and for Tiny Core Linux team as it happens), though I doubt if anyone has ever seen my name in any list of Puppy developers, which may be a measure of how bad my work is, which would be fair enough! (though some of my programs have occasionally been included in distributions, which is certainly an honour, thanks - but not important to me at all actually - ultimately a developer is judged by the usefulness or otherwise of their work, not by the their faithfulness to one distribution or another, which is irrelevant).
If you are not IN, you are not 'in'; far better to be on the edge anyway - wide perspective is a good thing. And whether you are in the Dogs or in the Pups or in both and more besides, this forum is currently for all who use it:
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyOrgani ... edirect=no
But old Precord has been around for a longtime anyway.
wiak
Main problem with the forum, in my own opinion, is the actual lack of acceptance by some members to anything else but traditional Puppy being represented on it. Too late guys - this forum has always been about developer freedom and never about the fanaticism, though those who boycott or deride the good non-Puppy work of others are certainly only playing the role of fanatics.
Fact is, the forum has grown and expanded in that sense - it is multi-distribution with some if not all of that being inspired by original Puppy. Why anyone has a problem with alternatives being available beats me. That may not have been the original purpose of the forum, since it was given a 'puppy' title, but its users were also given freedom to develop as they saw fit - the result has been various alternatives to traditional Puppy that offer at least similar facilities.
Non-woof'd and non-traditional distributions are in no way 'subordinate' in terms of importance on this forum - if anything they are expanding and it is Puppy itself that needs less space on the forum. Users and developers dictate the status quo in that sense, never fanatics. Puppy, as always, can be as good or bad a distribution, as its developers work proves to make it; but there has never been any 'competition' - many of us use many types of system, depending what best suits our needs and interests.
What I find most ridiculous is that even one or two of the officially designated Puppy steward's have made clearly hostile comments against the Dogs. We are all just users or developers and equal in this real world - why you have to have 'one Puppy to rule them all' beats me - the concept is childish and reality is different. Open your eyes. If Puppy loses users that would be a fair indication that users prefer something else - if it doesn't lose users, fine and good - it doesn't matter. This is a forum where users are free to develop whatever interests them - at least in that sense, the loose moderation is very good indeed because it allows a kind of creative development that is hard to come across anywhere else. Puppy may be a pedigree of its own distinct design but the hybrid mongrels inherit all the best genes, which is good for small system Linux development generally.
Puppy Steward's have no more importance in the overall scheme of things than any other system developers and no more rights to dictate John Murga forum than anyone else. Only John Murga could decide to limit the diversity and hybrid creativity this forum nowadays is all about.
One change, in this argumentative situation, that would help resolve the nonsense is for the forum title to change from murga-linux.com/puppy to something like murga-linux.com/kennels, but even that change, which would more truly show the actual situation, might be too much work to bother making in practice.
Maybe the Dogs should have a FAQ (similar to the Puppy FAQ), for its many users, that states that Puppy is accepted as being allowed to share its kennel - after all it is a bigger Dog if we are going to be truthful about this.
http://puppylinux.com/faq.html
Puppy FAQ: "About other Puppy Linux-like distributions"
"About Puppy Linux Team": These are only traditional Puppy Linux stewards, who are only 'stewards' of Puppy's woof-CE build system. Nothing to do with the Dogs, who have their own organisation team. And puppy's woof-CE stewards have no more than anyone else here to do with this forum's organisation.
Personally, I've always developed work for and on both Pups and the Dogs since first joining this forum in 2007 (and for Tiny Core Linux team as it happens), though I doubt if anyone has ever seen my name in any list of Puppy developers, which may be a measure of how bad my work is, which would be fair enough! (though some of my programs have occasionally been included in distributions, which is certainly an honour, thanks - but not important to me at all actually - ultimately a developer is judged by the usefulness or otherwise of their work, not by the their faithfulness to one distribution or another, which is irrelevant).
If you are not IN, you are not 'in'; far better to be on the edge anyway - wide perspective is a good thing. And whether you are in the Dogs or in the Pups or in both and more besides, this forum is currently for all who use it:
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyOrgani ... edirect=no
But old Precord has been around for a longtime anyway.
wiak
Of course there could be more volunteer moderators. But I disagree aboutwiak wrote:There is no problem with the organisation of the forum aside from individuals being sarcastic to others, attacking the work and comments of others, and being basically plain rude. Personally I'd like to see some tighter regulation in that sense of the forum being more closely moderated but considering the number of new posts on here everyday that would be a huge moderation task and far too much to realistically expect from any volunteer moderators.
(...)
wiak
the potential "hugeness" of the moderation task.
This forum already has "ad traps" for spammers pushing certain products
like for "male prolongation" (I'm using this expression so as not to trigger
the text modification), and various others. If a spammer types the name of
the "male prolongation" product it is automatically changed to "poisonous
sh!t" or something like that.
A function could be set up in this forum to do the same for words such as
"clueless", "bastard", "retarded", and similar insults. All of which would be
changed automatically upon typing into "unacceptable insult by vile human
being" or "(insulting word) like myself" or something like that.
Example: If the written insult is "musher0 is clueless", then the editor
will show "musher0 is clueless like myself". Or "musher0 is (unacceptable
insult by vile human being)." I'm sure you're getting the idea.
Also there already is a section called "Spam Reports". How much trouble
can it be to create an "Unacceptable Insults Section" where personal attacks
against a forum member could be reported by any other member.
With a title like:
"Insults by (Name-of-member)",
and the content of the post could simply be:
"at (URL of post)".
IMO, adding those two simple procedures would nip in the bud any
intention by any member to insult any other member.
In particular, the 2nd procedure would make it easier for Flash or whoever
is on moderation duty to warn or oust the author of the insult.
My 2¢.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
Well, yes, up to a point auto-moderation could be useful. Trouble is, language is versatile, it's not so much a few rude words which is the problem, it is the 'art' of attacking others, which can be done piercingly without the attacker using any profanities at all, so very hard to auto-filter out.
I'm not innocent in regard to sometimes reaching my own limit of tolerance prior to irresponsibly letting fly - but that is no excuse. If the behaviour could be stamped out altogether this would be a better and more productive place.
There will always be disagreements as to what is best regarding this forum, or the importance of one distribution over another (which is fine), but it would be a very positive things if steps were taken, by any means, to eliminate not only beliggerence but also fanaticism.
Puppy linux downloads etc are documented at http://puppylinux.com; a discussion forum does not need that level of organization. The Dogs sit in their own kennel at https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/. These are the central home pages where up-to-date organisation of information should always be taking place. From there, posts of interest in the all over the place forum can be selectively organised any way the distribution maintainers feel is best.
Puppy confuses its own users of course by also having a http://puppylinux.org, whose purpose is unclear to me. That does appear to be recently updated, but why two very different homesites? And isn't it better to use github for one homepage (and isn't a wiki possible there too?), where woof-CE itself actually resides?
And then there is the Puppy wiki, which 'should' also be regularly updated and not contain any obsolete ancient information - the burden of Puppy documentation/organisation isn't a forum issue, which is simply a place of discussion and work and early publication.
The main problem is that people use the forum like it is the official Puppy site, or the official Dog site, and so on. HowTo's are created on it, and more, but of course these should really be on a properly maintained wiki. How to better organise the wiki is a more important discussion than talks of starting other breakaway forums - unless there is a good reason for any such breakaway, such as, yes, a specific language characteristic, but only people in that language group are likely to care about that one way or the other.
I'm going to say nothing about the other longer existing alternative Puppy forum which, a quick browse suggests, mainly consists of one person.
The way the Puppy-related sites is currently organized is simply a reflection of an 'old' past - times have changed and so should the documentation approach.
As far as the forum itself is concerned, just wish it would adopt more generic topic titles rather than still being Puppy-centric. Puppy has long ago stopped being the centre of this forum universe, whose diversity should be acknowleged - like I said, Puppy has its own homepage elsewhere, as do the (Debian-related)Dogs and FatDog I presume. It is important to point out that the DebianDogs are not "Puppy Derivatives" and are not Puppies at all - they are full-multiuser-capable Debian derivatives that simply implement some or all of the functionality also available in Puppy systems and are similar in download installation size and can (by default but optionally) use root as primary user. They neither look like traditional Pups nor feel like them in use (only the earliest DDs by Toni were shaped to look like traditional Puppy - Fred's openbox versions never did).
Anyway, I have no more to say about this forum since it is only up to its owner how he wants it organised or re-organised or not.
wiak
I'm not innocent in regard to sometimes reaching my own limit of tolerance prior to irresponsibly letting fly - but that is no excuse. If the behaviour could be stamped out altogether this would be a better and more productive place.
There will always be disagreements as to what is best regarding this forum, or the importance of one distribution over another (which is fine), but it would be a very positive things if steps were taken, by any means, to eliminate not only beliggerence but also fanaticism.
Puppy linux downloads etc are documented at http://puppylinux.com; a discussion forum does not need that level of organization. The Dogs sit in their own kennel at https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/. These are the central home pages where up-to-date organisation of information should always be taking place. From there, posts of interest in the all over the place forum can be selectively organised any way the distribution maintainers feel is best.
Puppy confuses its own users of course by also having a http://puppylinux.org, whose purpose is unclear to me. That does appear to be recently updated, but why two very different homesites? And isn't it better to use github for one homepage (and isn't a wiki possible there too?), where woof-CE itself actually resides?
And then there is the Puppy wiki, which 'should' also be regularly updated and not contain any obsolete ancient information - the burden of Puppy documentation/organisation isn't a forum issue, which is simply a place of discussion and work and early publication.
The main problem is that people use the forum like it is the official Puppy site, or the official Dog site, and so on. HowTo's are created on it, and more, but of course these should really be on a properly maintained wiki. How to better organise the wiki is a more important discussion than talks of starting other breakaway forums - unless there is a good reason for any such breakaway, such as, yes, a specific language characteristic, but only people in that language group are likely to care about that one way or the other.
I'm going to say nothing about the other longer existing alternative Puppy forum which, a quick browse suggests, mainly consists of one person.
The way the Puppy-related sites is currently organized is simply a reflection of an 'old' past - times have changed and so should the documentation approach.
As far as the forum itself is concerned, just wish it would adopt more generic topic titles rather than still being Puppy-centric. Puppy has long ago stopped being the centre of this forum universe, whose diversity should be acknowleged - like I said, Puppy has its own homepage elsewhere, as do the (Debian-related)Dogs and FatDog I presume. It is important to point out that the DebianDogs are not "Puppy Derivatives" and are not Puppies at all - they are full-multiuser-capable Debian derivatives that simply implement some or all of the functionality also available in Puppy systems and are similar in download installation size and can (by default but optionally) use root as primary user. They neither look like traditional Pups nor feel like them in use (only the earliest DDs by Toni were shaped to look like traditional Puppy - Fred's openbox versions never did).
Anyway, I have no more to say about this forum since it is only up to its owner how he wants it organised or re-organised or not.
wiak
Good summary, wiak.
Thanks.
About your last remark:
members becoming voting members after a number of posts or months, its
approach and outlook would be different.
BFN.
Thanks.
About your last remark:
Indeed. If this forum was multi-owner, such a co-op or council, with forum> ... since it is only up to its owner how he wants it organised or re-organised or not.
members becoming voting members after a number of posts or months, its
approach and outlook would be different.
BFN.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
-
hamoudoudou
they are topics where people vote .
they are topics where people vote . do it ! you have your own forum now, Musher0, show us how to do.. One newbie, one user, already banned...
A forum where the pleasure is not to give help, but to ban.. Just slaves for a short while, when needed , and trashed with the abandoned Puppy..
What was the crime of the guy ? he was not understanding explanations
"throw the baby with his bath water" STS or LTS
Official or LXpup, what we need are serious people, not training pupils giving up as soon they are tired, after one week (Melchior). We will get abused once, not twice.
In house training is the section for training
derivatives and official are more serious.
A forum where the pleasure is not to give help, but to ban.. Just slaves for a short while, when needed , and trashed with the abandoned Puppy..
What was the crime of the guy ? he was not understanding explanations
"throw the baby with his bath water" STS or LTS
Official or LXpup, what we need are serious people, not training pupils giving up as soon they are tired, after one week (Melchior). We will get abused once, not twice.
In house training is the section for training
derivatives and official are more serious.
Last edited by hamoudoudou on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 07:10, edited 6 times in total.
I know. They are handy, but they are opinion polls. They imply nohamoudoudou wrote:they are topics where people vote . do it !
subsequent action.
I mean a type of governance for a forum.
On the type of forum I imagine, it should be possible to have
-- forum members (obvious!), who
-- when they have posted a number of posts and / or frequented the
forum a number of months, would be allowed voting power on
-- motions / decisions concerning the forum, including election of a
Board of Governors for the forum.
-- This Board of Governors would select moderators
---- formulate the regulations for the forum
---- write the motions to vote on,
---- also the policy, etc.
Like in a company or a co-operative.
This way you have a representative, democratic, governance for the
forum, not just a single owner who decides / vetoes everything, and
tough it if you do not like it.
BFN.
Last edited by musher0 on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 07:11, edited 1 time in total.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
@hamoudoudou
I may have been the "idea man" for the new French Puppy forum, but it is
still a single-owner forum; that owner is "augras", not me.
On augras' ElkArte Puppy forum, the initiator of the thread has editing and
moderating powers for his thread. If there is a spammer on his thread, the
initiator can ban the spammer from his thread. Not from the board: only the
owner of the Board can do that.
It's a different model from the approach here.
I may have been the "idea man" for the new French Puppy forum, but it is
still a single-owner forum; that owner is "augras", not me.
On augras' ElkArte Puppy forum, the initiator of the thread has editing and
moderating powers for his thread. If there is a spammer on his thread, the
initiator can ban the spammer from his thread. Not from the board: only the
owner of the Board can do that.
It's a different model from the approach here.
Last edited by musher0 on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 07:24, edited 1 time in total.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
-
hamoudoudou
That is musherisation.
you think that you will reorganise society here, ?
we know your ideas, let other ideas be described, then people will vote.. Show us how to do in your french forum..
A nice way for democracy is to kill first those who don't agree with you, than get others vote, at least they agree or are so frightened that they will agree. How many are they ?
Administror and user (2) one person, two votes.. Musher0 who wanted the 'forum' a video developer for ToOpPy, a gambas dev for his own, and the banned poster.. was member here since 2009.
That is musherisation.
we know your ideas, let other ideas be described, then people will vote.. Show us how to do in your french forum..
A nice way for democracy is to kill first those who don't agree with you, than get others vote, at least they agree or are so frightened that they will agree. How many are they ?
Administror and user (2) one person, two votes.. Musher0 who wanted the 'forum' a video developer for ToOpPy, a gambas dev for his own, and the banned poster.. was member here since 2009.
That is musherisation.