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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Censorship hits Puppy.org
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purple379

Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 09:01    Post subject:  Censorship hits Puppy.org
Subject description: Does censorship matter if it is the government, or a free market company?
 

Does censorship matter if it is the government, or a free market company. Perhaps doing it in behalf of a government agency. Like AT&T (AT&T being known as acting in behalf of the NSA in other ways) doing it in behalf of the NSA?

Some months back I posted that the public WiFi connection at McDs blocked some IP addresses.

Such as, Torproject, (although Tor already installed would work, and update itself) Firefox download and Firefox updates, (Although an already installed version of Firefox would work, and hang a bit, as it kept trying to update itself. If one temporarily turned on a VPN, let Firefox update, it resumed its normal speed) Any download of Linux or update to Linux IP was blocked. (although Linux itself worked just fine) Forums to Linux and Firefox were not blocked. Veracrypt, source-forge are blocked.

This morning, I find that Puppy Linux. org

https://login.attwifi.com/blocked/blocked_page.html#?user_ip=%3C192.168.5.175%3E&dest_ip=%3C66.96.160.129%3E&app_name=%3Chttp%3E&web_rep=%3Ctrustworthy-sites%3E&web_cat=%3Cshareware-and-freeware%3E

gave a circle with the bar sinister on it, and the message :

Web page blocked
Access to this site is blocked at the direction of the venue providing this service as a courtesy to guests and customers.

This forum works, I can get into puppy Linux.com itself - works. Of course, downloads to any Linux are blocked. (I have not tried all of them, but that seems the goal)

Looks like Puppy Linux distros might benefit from having an easy to install VPN. Perhaps a free one. Well that is a going to be a big point of disagreement. If a VPN is free, is it really secure?
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Flash
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 09:51    Post subject:  

Are you saying that a free wifi access point blocked your access to a website?
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1327

PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 14:41    Post subject:  

Flash wrote:
Are you saying that a free wifi access point blocked your access to a website?


Using a non secure connection like "http" is risky at a public access point. Perhaps the page was blocked for security reasons.
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purple379

Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 17:07    Post subject: Blocks specific IP addresses  

Including the ability to open a web page at puppylinux.org.

It does not block this forum, which is not https:

The VPN to be installed to Puppy needs to be a simple point and click install. I am guessing that since Puppy has had some things removed which might be needed for a VPN to work. ?????

New puppy users will likely have problems with anything than a simple point and click install.
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1172

PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 17:22    Post subject:  

Quote:
Does censorship matter if it is the government, or a free market company. Perhaps doing it in behalf of a government agency. Like AT&T (AT&T being known as acting in behalf of the NSA in other ways) doing it in behalf of the NSA?


It is only censorship if the government does it. Private individuals and companies are under no obligation to host anything they don't want to anymore than you are obligated to put a a political sign in your front yard for a candidate you hate.

Freedom of speech includes the freedom to not speak, not advertise, and not host web pages you don't like on your private wifi network. Do you want the mayor of your town to decide that you need to put a sign for his reelection in your yard?
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purple379

Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 18:07    Post subject: Violates fair use of Internet.  

The goal is to kill the use of Linux. In fact, I have no doubt newcomers will be less likely to use Puppy Linux because of how difficult it will be to download it, get Packages. That is the same for all of Linux though, just this one example is against Puppy Linux.

From an article in the intercept:

"The NSA considers AT&T to be one of its most trusted partners and has lauded the company’s “extreme willingness to help.” It is a collaboration that dates back decades. Little known, however, is that its scope is not restricted to AT&T’s customers. According to the NSA’s documents, it values AT&T not only because it “has access to information that transits the nation,” but also because it maintains unique relationships with other phone and internet providers. The NSA exploits these relationships for surveillance purposes, commandeering AT&T’s massive infrastructure and using it as a platform to covertly tap into communications processed by other companies."

I think we can infer that AT&T is not acting like a private company. That is AT&T restricting Linux so it can keep its extra ability to mine data from customers, for resale. Rather it is an extension of the intent of NSA goals.

But what is wrong with Puppy developers creating an easy install of a VPN? That was my goal. A new puppy package for using a VPN.

Is it not my right to use a VPN, whatever the goal of a private company?

At one time I would have agreed with the other posters that a private company can do whatever it wants. So I do, even now, have strong feelings that your position is fair. So my feeling is we are not really as far apart as as what I am complaining about might sound.

But the basic goal was to explain a need to justify puppy developers creating an easy to use, free VPN for Puppy.. So they would create it, not to create an argument about what a private company should or should not be allowed to do.
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 4557
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 19:15    Post subject:  

@ purple379:-

I think your answer could be, in a word; 'supernodes'. See here:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernode_(networking)

I'm afraid it won't parse, either due to the end bracket or the underscore; the forum software won't have it. You end up with the classic 'blank post'. (This is P2P stuff, in a nutshell.)

And then see the December issue of the Newsletter.....and read about Smokey01's work with 'Back Seat Driver'. It runs thru a VPN.....connected via the world-wide network of these supernodes.

http://smokey01.com/newsletters/2018/December/0024-PuppyLinuxNewsletter-December2018.html#16

And you can't get much more 'point-and-click'. Food for thought, perhaps?


Mike. Wink

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nosystemdthanks

Joined: 03 May 2018
Posts: 563

PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 20:01    Post subject:  

dancytron wrote:
It is only censorship if the government does it.


this is of course, an oversimplification of what censorship is.

Quote:
Private individuals and companies are under no obligation to host anything they don't want to anymore than you are obligated to put a a political sign in your front yard for a candidate you hate.


which doesnt mean it isnt censorship.

i dont know if puppylinux.org is being censored or if its just an accident, but the effect is the same and the reason for it is probably what determines whether it is censorship or not.

dancy has already ruled out government censorship.

really, the history of censorship doesnt at all point to a definition that excludes non-governmental factors. this is one instance where the relevant xkcd was just completely non-factual. munroe really phoned it in that day. not that i expect him at the top of his game 365.25 days of the year.

and the idea that at&t, as a communications company, is not capable of censoring is simply laughable. its as ridiculous as saying theres a giant flying elephant outside who sings southern gospel classics.

but i also doubt they are plotting against puppy.

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 21:51    Post subject:  

Quote:
Some months back I posted that the public WiFi connection at McDs blocked some IP addresses.

Think about it.
You are going to sit in McD and look at porno web sites, use up half their available band width doing downloads of 1 to 3 GB OS's, trying to stream content and let it be streamed from your computer (using more band width), and you are upset by them limiting what you can do on their free service Rolling Eyes
Oh, and how long are you going to take up a seat in the restaurant? They make money with those seats being available to people buying food!

Any company offering free web access is not going to have unlimited band width.
Also, you are not the only one trying to use it. Exclamation

Use a little common understanding of the real world and what public service companies have to deal with.
TV lawyers love going after these companies for anything Shocked Exclamation .

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YaPI(any iso installer) http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107601
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Flash
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec 2018, 23:03    Post subject:  

Not long ago I was in a McD and some jerk had his laptop speaker turned up loud while he listened to some music on the free wifi. I think he had his laptop plugged into the wall outlet too. I would have welcomed some corporate censorship just then. I think most everyone in the place would have.
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 4557
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec 2018, 08:23    Post subject:  

TBH, on second thoughts, I find myself agreeing with bigpup.

It doesn't matter where you access free wi-fi from. Any wi-fi 'hotspot' is only going to have 'X' amount of available bandwidth. This has to be shared out between as many people as want to use it.

It wouldn't surprise me if the router software contains some kind of 'load-balancing' element.....and even less so if it further recognises certain MAC addresses that regularly exceed what the system considers to be a 'fair share'.

As Mr. Spock was very fond of saying, the 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few'. Sounds about right to me....and fairly 'logical' at that.

(*shrug*)


Mike. Wink

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purple379

Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec 2018, 10:48    Post subject: Some of you guys objections remind me of when.  

When I used to get up at 2 AM to use my dial-up connection to download a copy of Puppy 1.x. Because the internet at night gave me faster access.

I think you guys are channeling your memories. Today. I think the software on a router designed for today's public WiFi is designed to allow everyone a fair share of the connection access and speed. This morning I downloaded a 1.8 GB ISO for over a thousand miles away, through a free VPN (slower than a pay for one), it downloaded in less than six minutes.

Speakers on at all is a different type of issue. We had a fellow with Tourettes whose yelling and vocabulary was such that someone politely explain to him - he leave and not come back. He was annoying without a computer.

In my McDs, if the user does not spend money then McDs managers will tell the individual to leave. Power Plugs are disabled in the lobby. Which in some ways effects teenagers who want to charge and use their phones. I think they are actually more of a target audience of McDs than myself.

I also notice that everyone's mind is that the use of a VPN is to download movies, watch movies not otherwise available to the user. While I am not going to try it. I bet if I downloaded a copy of a movie from Amazon using Edge, then it would work. That is, AT&t is not going to block someone doing something they pay for. Of course it might be the concern of AT&T that using Firefox, I can get a youtube downloader. I used to know a fellow who spent his days downloading pirate movies, video using Google Chrome (no VPN needed) He used a public library WiFi connection with a whole group of other downloaders. Google Chrome itself is not (today-12-23-2018) blocked for download or use. The Downloaders used a direct link, and did not need a downloading Addon.

Just because someone might cause an auto accident, does not decide for me whether I have an effective need for a car for transportation the docs office, or the grocery store.

I will say, at one time, I truly agreed with the idea that a private company has the right to not provide anything I want. If I was an individual in Peoples Republic of China, who was knowledgeable about, for profit companies wrong doing, or government abuse of citizens. Then I might have a different view of a private company doing what the government wanted a blocking my access to software that might allow me to warn others of wrongful efforts of those in power. The US government still provides funds to support Tor. Tor has been used by Porno video distributors, and recreational drug dealers. Also by Human Right advocates, Whistle blowers, Journalists.

I have Vietnamese friends, whose need to leave Vietnam was because they had supported the US presence long ago, and they were Catholic. They speak of things in Vietnam happening today. They say within Vietnam today it is well known that China send food items, which were essentially toxic. A large number of Vietnamese babies having been permanently had their IQ reduced because of this. Of course the price of such toxic food was really low. The Vietnamese (in Vietnam) believe it was a direct action by the government of China. There are many things in this world which occur that are less important than what Trump Tweets.

Then this is the US, and we all know those things do not happen here. One should not use Puppy Linux as a cyber dissident in a place like Iran, with or without Tor. At least, I would advise against it.

But I digress. I do not need a Puppy VPN. My primary laptop is two years old with a Skylake I7 and 16 Gigabytes of RAM. Which is why I rarely use Puppy anymore. In fact the oddity of my hardware is such that I use Windows 10 Pro mostly. A free VPN is an easy install in Windows, if one even realizes that is what will solve the issue of not being able to access some websites. I see folks who do not have a clue what is happening.

A newcomer to Puppy may not be knowledgeable enough, or have powerful enough hardware to easily overcome these obstacles of getting Puppy updates, or new versions of Puppy Linux.

One might install Brave Browser that has a Tor Tab build in.

But I am not going to develop Puppy package to allow for easy install of a free VPN. I do not develop Linux packages.

For all, have a happy holidays. a Happy Christmas. A merry New Year. And I hope the hangover is not too bad.
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nosystemdthanks

Joined: 03 May 2018
Posts: 563

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec 2018, 11:11    Post subject: Re: Some of you guys objections remind me of when.  

purple379 wrote:
One should not use Puppy Linux as a cyber dissident in a place like Iran, with or without Tor. At least, I would advise against it.


THIS. though who are you kidding with windows 10? puppy probably shouldnt be used for critical privacy, but windows 10? what on earth?

i dont entirely disagree about mcdonalds, though sometimes you have to live under a regime to relise that the conversation you guys are having is about a slippery slope.

the needs of the principle outweighs convenience sometimes--

and if it doesnt, and there are no principles, a regime soon appears. corporate censorship happens, and people need to push back (a little) instead of just saying "well, its a good thing." its really not a good thing, when it goes from being superficial to being endemic.

i dont think people generally realise how close the two can be to each other-- acceptable censorship and the sort that destroys the utility of the internet and turns it into a cable tv station.

but for now, we are mostly ok. part of the reason is that people do push back, even while others say "think of the corporations."

with all the video people watch, its easy to use the same bandwidth that it takes to download puppy.

as for seating, that argument wasnt realistic. some mcdonalds get really full-- most of the ones ive been to are at less than half capacity, nearly all day long. maybe the seating argument applies at starbucks.

im not saying everyone was wrong, but there are two sides to this and the people that werent wrong were also oversimplifying things in a way that made their argument seem more solid than it really was.

ive never met anyone from anywhere who wasnt more likely to put ethics in terms of the collective than people from mainland china. hong kong is different.

but in real life, it doesnt result in any sort of utopia-- too many "needs of the many" arguments and basically people spend the whole day arguing why every person should be miserable-- for the good of the rest of them.

thats what happens in practice, when people get overly collectivist. they realise that not everyone can possibly be happy, so they just start tilting towards misery as an ideal, just to keep things fair to everybody. and there are so many historical examples of this, the idea that its some unreasonable hypothetical scenario is just ridiculous.

extreme takes on fairness turn into "well screw everybody then" a little too quickly. which doesnt mean "abandon fairness," it means "be careful before you appeal to the needs of the many, that you actually know what youre talking about."

every day this country seems more like china, and anybody arguing for individuals is painted like some kind of monster. (or "millennial.") its a lot better than china, for sure. but the general attitude towards the individual worries me.

just say it already: "what this country really needs is parents."

whether youre really thinking that or its sort of underlying your opinions, theres only one kind of government thats ever going to come out of that sentiment. be careful.

if you dont stand up for things when theyre a cultural issue, the way the government works eventually reflects the culture. thats the biggest reason why its censorship before the government does it. by the time the government does it, no one cares either way.

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purple379

Joined: 04 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec 2018, 18:58    Post subject: We all want to believe our life experience should guide all.
Subject description: Some of us fear the big corporations and govt. Some not.
 

I feel some folks here sometimes say things with some irony, sarcasm and a sense of humor.

Anyway. If a public WiFi provider is worried about the usage of bandwidth. I wonder if they have thought of blocking perhaps the biggest single abuser of using a lot of bandwidth.

Microsoft Windows Update. I think most weekly updates are at least three GBs.

My use of Windows is an oddity I never intended, but I am not a cyber dissident either. For some strange series of events I have some warranty on this Alienware which would allow it be completely replaced if something went wrong, and it is getting closer to that point. If Windows does not look like the primary OS, NO warranty. The firmware of the Mobo is tightly dovetailed to Windows. I am aware, that Linux now changes the Mobo firmware. I am concerned about the thing overheating. The Warranty replacement might not be honored for some other detail. If puppy Linux does not give me greater security (privacy being another matter) Then Windows 10 does not hurt me. The WiFi built into the Alienware is also a point. It allows both frequencies in Windows. Some of the Linux distros I must install someones version of a WiFi adapter driver. Likely not the same size or number of buffers. I originally intended to put Linux on my primary laptop, with a lot of RAM, and run a VM, which could have included Windows. Else several different distros of Linux. But how I ended up with an Alienware instead of XPS is another story.

Think of it. I recently asked Dell if they would sell me a new battery for this thing. They said the battery would not longer be sold. This is the same scenario that changed a 2014 Alienware into this later model hardware, faster processor, and such. True it replacement Alienware had a refurbished sticker on it. It has been a solid trooper. Never hiccuped. I have bumped it a bit. No breaks.

Then again, by the terms of the Warranty. If some evil person came over and pushed this Alienware onto the floor. Crunch. Hopefully I would end up putting the pieces in a box to dell, and get as a replacement-later processor Alienware. How I ended up with the longer warranty is another story. which is why they might not honor it.
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Mike Walsh


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PostPosted: Mon 24 Dec 2018, 14:47    Post subject:  

purple379 wrote:
But I digress. I do not need a Puppy VPN. My primary laptop is two years old with a Skylake I7 and 16 Gigabytes of RAM. Which is why I rarely use Puppy anymore. In fact the oddity of my hardware is such that I use Windows 10 Pro mostly. A free VPN is an easy install in Windows, if one even realizes that is what will solve the issue of not being able to access some websites. I see folks who do not have a clue what is happening.


Mm. It is, of course, totally subjective (as to personal choice) as to what the individual chooses to run. Puppy was originally designed to run on low-powered hardware. That doesn't mean it can't be run on much more powerful hardware, should the individual so wish.

Windoze, on the other hand, is well-known for needing powerful hardware in order to get the best out of it. But even if you have powerful hardware, nowhere is it written in stone that you should only run Windoze on it.....

Somewhere in the membership, we have a lass who inherited an absolute monster of a machine from a relative. Server motherboard, twin ultra-powerful top-end 26-core Xeons, somewhere around the 64 GB mark of DDR4 RAM, and I believe it had somewhere around 10 TB-worth of extremely fast hybrid HDD/SSD storage. Naturally, this thing was running a pro version of Windoze (I forget which version, now). Her very first action was to wipe Windoze off the drives, pronto. She did not want it. In any guise, or in any shape or form.....not even as a VM. Had no use for it.

She spent a few days asking our opinions as to the best Puppy she could use on the thing.....and ended up very happy as to her new 'acquisition'.

Just because Windoze is readily available (usually coming pre-installed in most cases), doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be everybody's first (or even second or third) choice. There are those who have no interest in Windows, or who have had extremely negative experiences with it in the past.....and find that all their needs can be met with something else.

If you like Windoze, you like it. If you choose to use something else, all power to you. We do have that choice in the Western world. Smile


Mike. Wink

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