Hello oui and all.
I repeat: jwm is Joe Wing's revenge on humanity for what he thinks humanity has
done to him.
You cannot write documentation like jwm's documentation if you have a heart. It
has no examples, absolutely no examples. Who does he think his users are?
Pure spirits? Robots?
I have never read anything so dry in my entire life. The man has no idea of how
learning happens in humans.
So I decided some years ago to go on strike permanently against jwm, and I am
glad I did. I discovered all sorts of window management concepts that jwm does not
even know exist.
There is a fabulous world of different WMs beyond jwm, you know. The world does
not stop at jwm.
BFN.
Puppy's big problem with woof and woof CE
-
darry19662018
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Sat 31 Mar 2018, 08:01
- Location: Rakaia
- Contact:
As promised here it is:wanderer wrote:thanks so much darry
cool so that is where to start
whenever you have time put a link to your iso
and i will download it and burn it
then i will read your stuff
wanderer
https://archive.org/details/stretch7.5onebonek4.1.48
Puppy Linux Wiki: [url]http://wikka.puppylinux.com/HomePage[/url]
[url]https://freemedia.neocities.org/[/url]
[url]https://freemedia.neocities.org/[/url]
-
oui
Christian,
pls
You hate JWM and for this reason (or analog reason of others thinking they have to change, they say for it "develop", Puppy differently as BK did create it! Some other refuses mTpaint (although BK itself is a real graphic developer specialist) because also the manual of mTpaint is difficult for foreign users etc.,
Puppy has to be condamned to become fat?
pls, it is nonsens pure!
use dotsfs for other stuff divergent from those decided by BK in his stamples...
no other WM can be smaller than JWM and so beautiful at the same time! You can add bars and bars and background pictures as you want without some other app or extension with only a few lines
as user, you have nothing to do in the .jwmrc : BK did made the support about automatic and if you as developer are not able to write some lines in XHTML please renounce to develop and write poetry...
and we have to tolerate your nonsens "decision"?
we want and need real Puppy's...
if the concept from Puppy is wrong for you as BK did create it, it's simple, go away, create your own beautiful distribution with your own site and forum... what are those criticasters ensconced in the Puppy stuff and community, especially in the foreing language subdivision where it not appears so open for all and changing the rules! really...
distrowatch gives you no justification for such comportment: Puppy was place 8..9 just before it did become fat
...
and now, what a success really! look yourself that kind of success ...
pls
musher0 wrote:Hello oui and all.
I repeat: jwm is Joe Wing's revenge on humanity for what he thinks humanity has
done to him.
You cannot write documentation like jwm's documentation if you have a heart. It
has no examples, absolutely no examples. Who does he think his users are?
Pure spirits? Robots?
I have never read anything so dry in my entire life. The man has no idea of how
learning happens in humans.
So I decided some years ago to go on strike permanently against jwm, and I am
glad I did. I discovered all sorts of window management concepts that jwm does not
even know exist.
There is a fabulous world of different WMs beyond jwm, you know. The world does
not stop at jwm.
BFN.
you « was born to love and not to hate» so your favorite song, the Sophocles song!oui wrote:Other ones may be beautiful but fat terribly Puppy and requires new manipulations from newbies! Why not a really common way for all using for the other desktop environment dotsfs packages? RHS did made possible to start those dotfs packages immediately at starting time through some cfg file for the initrd!
You hate JWM and for this reason (or analog reason of others thinking they have to change, they say for it "develop", Puppy differently as BK did create it! Some other refuses mTpaint (although BK itself is a real graphic developer specialist) because also the manual of mTpaint is difficult for foreign users etc.,
Puppy has to be condamned to become fat?
pls, it is nonsens pure!
use dotsfs for other stuff divergent from those decided by BK in his stamples...
no other WM can be smaller than JWM and so beautiful at the same time! You can add bars and bars and background pictures as you want without some other app or extension with only a few lines
as user, you have nothing to do in the .jwmrc : BK did made the support about automatic and if you as developer are not able to write some lines in XHTML please renounce to develop and write poetry...
and we have to tolerate your nonsens "decision"?
we want and need real Puppy's...
if the concept from Puppy is wrong for you as BK did create it, it's simple, go away, create your own beautiful distribution with your own site and forum... what are those criticasters ensconced in the Puppy stuff and community, especially in the foreing language subdivision where it not appears so open for all and changing the rules! really...
distrowatch gives you no justification for such comportment: Puppy was place 8..9 just before it did become fat
...and now, what a success really! look yourself that kind of success ...
There are lightweight distributions (e.g. MXLinux and antiX) which are larger than puppy but more popular than puppy.. I'm not saying that puppy should be bigger or smaller, I'm just saying that it doesn't follow that puppy getting a bit larger makes it less popular.oui wrote:Christian,
distrowatch gives you no justification for such comportment: Puppy was place 8..9 just before it did become fat
and now, what a success really! look yourself that kind of success ...
Also aside from MXLinux and antiX most small/light weight distributions don't rank high on distrowatch. Therefore we should not get too concerned about these rankings.
oui,
You're like the old soldier saying that Rome or Berlin or Paris were more beautiful
before the war. Please stop that and get real.
You're gluing Puppy and jwm together, which is quite artificial. There have been
Puppies by BK with icewm.
As to my dislike of xml, what computers language do you master? Also, jwm is fat
compared to aewm and wmx, it is not the slimmest WM.
Plus what good is a Puppy based on do-ocracy if users cannot experiment with
new choices?
If Puppy is down on the DW chart, the fact that major devs from a few years ago,
like aragon, MU, pemasu, starhawk (an expert in painting applications) and iguleder,
Sailor Enceladus more recently (also I'm sure I'm forgetting a few) have left Puppy,
probably that has more of a bearing on the question. The question is rather why
did they leave? Real reasons, or disguised personality conflicts with some other
collaborators here? Or they found this forum not supportive enough of their work?
(I know that is the case for one of them at least: he said so publicly in one of
his threads.)
But s243a is right: DW is a bad indicator. Also anyone who has followed DW's
articles about Puppy and Quirky can tell that positive articles from the DW authors
about us are few and far between. In short they have it in for us, they jump to
conclusions a lot, they are not as thorough with us as they are with the the other
distros.
To return the compliment, I notice that Puppy's rating on DW has gone down a few
more points since (because?) you have started this thread. Bravo, oui! Keep it up!
I hope you realize that I am teasing you: the blame game does not lead anywhere.
BFN.
You're like the old soldier saying that Rome or Berlin or Paris were more beautiful
before the war. Please stop that and get real.
You're gluing Puppy and jwm together, which is quite artificial. There have been
Puppies by BK with icewm.
As to my dislike of xml, what computers language do you master? Also, jwm is fat
compared to aewm and wmx, it is not the slimmest WM.
Plus what good is a Puppy based on do-ocracy if users cannot experiment with
new choices?
If Puppy is down on the DW chart, the fact that major devs from a few years ago,
like aragon, MU, pemasu, starhawk (an expert in painting applications) and iguleder,
Sailor Enceladus more recently (also I'm sure I'm forgetting a few) have left Puppy,
probably that has more of a bearing on the question. The question is rather why
did they leave? Real reasons, or disguised personality conflicts with some other
collaborators here? Or they found this forum not supportive enough of their work?
(I know that is the case for one of them at least: he said so publicly in one of
his threads.)
But s243a is right: DW is a bad indicator. Also anyone who has followed DW's
articles about Puppy and Quirky can tell that positive articles from the DW authors
about us are few and far between. In short they have it in for us, they jump to
conclusions a lot, they are not as thorough with us as they are with the the other
distros.
To return the compliment, I notice that Puppy's rating on DW has gone down a few
more points since (because?) you have started this thread. Bravo, oui! Keep it up!
I hope you realize that I am teasing you: the blame game does not lead anywhere.
BFN.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
ahh
it is all coming back to me
what i dealt with
when i was trying to minimize puppy in the past
the design of puppy
does not allow it to be
an efficient minimal modular system
yes you could make every application and dependency
into its own sfs file
this of course would be a herculean task in itself
but then you would be loading
literally hundreds of layers
onto the layered file system
this would put a enormous and unnecessary burden
on the cpu
woof-ce is not relevant to this problem
and can only add or subtract components
to the main file systems
puppy is a beautiful system
but if you want an efficient minimal modular system
i would advise you to try corepup/tinycore
wanderer
it is all coming back to me
what i dealt with
when i was trying to minimize puppy in the past
the design of puppy
does not allow it to be
an efficient minimal modular system
yes you could make every application and dependency
into its own sfs file
this of course would be a herculean task in itself
but then you would be loading
literally hundreds of layers
onto the layered file system
this would put a enormous and unnecessary burden
on the cpu
woof-ce is not relevant to this problem
and can only add or subtract components
to the main file systems
puppy is a beautiful system
but if you want an efficient minimal modular system
i would advise you to try corepup/tinycore
wanderer
@Oui,
how about trying something in this ball park?
DELL SX280 750 MB Pentium4, =Thin Slacko
Acer emachines 2 GB AMD64. =Thin Slacko
DELL XPS15 =Thin Slacko
https://archive.org/download/Puppy_Linux_ThinSlacko
99mb, you're not really going to do any better than that.
how about trying something in this ball park?
DELL SX280 750 MB Pentium4, =Thin Slacko
Acer emachines 2 GB AMD64. =Thin Slacko
DELL XPS15 =Thin Slacko
https://archive.org/download/Puppy_Linux_ThinSlacko
99mb, you're not really going to do any better than that.
-
oui
Hi wanderer
As long as BK did offers himself new Puppy's was Puppy the leader of the small or tiny Linux derivates at DW. It is the representative of that subset of Operations Systems. Why?
Old PCs did need a push to begin a new phase of her life: Obsolete PC's used by people having no other access to PC or internet.
In the most modern countries a lot of people don't have some PC.
More, in those countries a lot of people don't have internet, can't accede to Google the evil or Wikipedia the holy.
it exceeds our imagination to go two or three decades back into the time without PC and internet. Some of the forum user did never live so...
the quantity of obsolete PC waiting for optimal use in the word is colossal!
and Puppy is the leader under the OS being able to give those hardware a new chance although the conditions are today more worse as a decade or more ago: a lot of pages a the one side and a lot of old hardware (printers, scanner, video cam's etc.) at the other side, are excluded to be used online because "they run" on an old OS.
new puppy's stay of course at disposition also for new hardware (but those hardware come usually with a own complete environment free or for cheap and are not dependent from Puppy). new puppy's stay at disposition and are important for old and obsolete hardware giving them speed and modern technology else if no original drivers and system reconstitution's CD are available any more and update / upgrade rights are not present.
those users having placed Puppy at rang 8 or 9 in the past did find in the last main activity time from BK a system being loadable about on each old PC with more than probably 128 MB (I will reinstall my oldest bookPC with i486
used with the Puppy's release 1.xx and before to test divers later Puppy's but I must find time because that activity is pure time killer. It did have probably only 64 MB 
to see what is the matter) because they are billions of those old hardware in
poor countries
(above I did write on rich countries
) in the world = in Africa, in South America, in India, in Far East, in Oceania! They need OS's for old hardware, they need stuff for complex writing (no problem using a good browser), they need network, they would need urgently Skype because of troubles on classic phones, etc.
how important is that:
enormous important. I have a Braille reading panel at home. This was a terrible expensive equipment at his time! But it need old hardware: no USB connection, only RS232 in pure connection (no transmitter USB/RS232 possible! a Braille reading panel is one of the most complex home equipment as the users have wide needs as they are blind: the panel speaks to the blind user as he can't read some instructions on it...). That equipment can transform totally the life of the user having it in poor countries... he can read google and wikipedia with it. he can study, can be informed, can have buddies far on the world (I also have a Braille typewriter and an very old totaly manual Braille punching board: A Braille panel with electro-mechanized points giving the relief of Braille writing is totally different)!
It is only one example how a modern OS can be important because you can continue to use the in this case very important obsolete RS232 and modern browsers because you can use old PC's. The industrial production from 1,5 .. 3 decades for special equipments like that Braille long panel / sometimes also named Braille monitor, wait in the world because nobody more can really use the old PC and Special equipment hardwares in a the environment of modern internet...
excepted with Puppy (wanderer, I don't know the distros you did name, I know only 4 little linux: Puppy, SliTaz, Slax and the microbe BASlin. But I am about certain that only Puppy have realistic chances to support such a complex equipment eventually in an extreme complex environment where geographic position, sound channels, video with tons of dependencies have to communicate with each other. We did follow in that forum 2 great projects with Puppy used in legal schools on more than 100 PC's. It is difficult enough. But a pupil can come and say: «Dear teatcher, here is my Braille panel to connect!»)
but the distro builder used by Puppy developers actually blows Puppy so extreme that a lot of PC hardware become unusuable with them because you have no access to old additional memory bars etc,
if someone publish a Puppy for a certain Linux, for ex. actual Debian testing (*1, nobody more will remake it again after him: The experience demonstrate that he eliminates the chance to see appear such an other release of that stuff with optimal parameters...
it was the starting point of that thread!
(*1 it was some kind of one-bone with, the first ISO, 324 MB!
As long as BK did offers himself new Puppy's was Puppy the leader of the small or tiny Linux derivates at DW. It is the representative of that subset of Operations Systems. Why?
Old PCs did need a push to begin a new phase of her life: Obsolete PC's used by people having no other access to PC or internet.
In the most modern countries a lot of people don't have some PC.
More, in those countries a lot of people don't have internet, can't accede to Google the evil or Wikipedia the holy.
it exceeds our imagination to go two or three decades back into the time without PC and internet. Some of the forum user did never live so...
the quantity of obsolete PC waiting for optimal use in the word is colossal!
and Puppy is the leader under the OS being able to give those hardware a new chance although the conditions are today more worse as a decade or more ago: a lot of pages a the one side and a lot of old hardware (printers, scanner, video cam's etc.) at the other side, are excluded to be used online because "they run" on an old OS.
new puppy's stay of course at disposition also for new hardware (but those hardware come usually with a own complete environment free or for cheap and are not dependent from Puppy). new puppy's stay at disposition and are important for old and obsolete hardware giving them speed and modern technology else if no original drivers and system reconstitution's CD are available any more and update / upgrade rights are not present.
those users having placed Puppy at rang 8 or 9 in the past did find in the last main activity time from BK a system being loadable about on each old PC with more than probably 128 MB (I will reinstall my oldest bookPC with i486
used with the Puppy's release 1.xx and before to test divers later Puppy's but I must find time because that activity is pure time killer. It did have probably only 64 MB to see what is the matter) because they are billions of those old hardware inpoor countries
(above I did write on rich countries
) in the world = in Africa, in South America, in India, in Far East, in Oceania! They need OS's for old hardware, they need stuff for complex writing (no problem using a good browser), they need network, they would need urgently Skype because of troubles on classic phones, etc.how important is that:
enormous important. I have a Braille reading panel at home. This was a terrible expensive equipment at his time! But it need old hardware: no USB connection, only RS232 in pure connection (no transmitter USB/RS232 possible! a Braille reading panel is one of the most complex home equipment as the users have wide needs as they are blind: the panel speaks to the blind user as he can't read some instructions on it...). That equipment can transform totally the life of the user having it in poor countries... he can read google and wikipedia with it. he can study, can be informed, can have buddies far on the world (I also have a Braille typewriter and an very old totaly manual Braille punching board: A Braille panel with electro-mechanized points giving the relief of Braille writing is totally different)!
It is only one example how a modern OS can be important because you can continue to use the in this case very important obsolete RS232 and modern browsers because you can use old PC's. The industrial production from 1,5 .. 3 decades for special equipments like that Braille long panel / sometimes also named Braille monitor, wait in the world because nobody more can really use the old PC and Special equipment hardwares in a the environment of modern internet...
excepted with Puppy (wanderer, I don't know the distros you did name, I know only 4 little linux: Puppy, SliTaz, Slax and the microbe BASlin. But I am about certain that only Puppy have realistic chances to support such a complex equipment eventually in an extreme complex environment where geographic position, sound channels, video with tons of dependencies have to communicate with each other. We did follow in that forum 2 great projects with Puppy used in legal schools on more than 100 PC's. It is difficult enough. But a pupil can come and say: «Dear teatcher, here is my Braille panel to connect!»)
but the distro builder used by Puppy developers actually blows Puppy so extreme that a lot of PC hardware become unusuable with them because you have no access to old additional memory bars etc,
if someone publish a Puppy for a certain Linux, for ex. actual Debian testing (*1, nobody more will remake it again after him: The experience demonstrate that he eliminates the chance to see appear such an other release of that stuff with optimal parameters...
it was the starting point of that thread!
(*1 it was some kind of one-bone with, the first ISO, 324 MB!
Oui wrote:
I think what they need most is .....Birth Control .above I did write on rich countries Wink ) in the world = in Africa, in South America, in India, in Far East, in Oceania! They need OS's for old hardware, they need stuff for complex writing (no problem using a good browser), they need network, they would need urgently Skype because of troubles on classic phones, etc.
hi oui
puppy is small
but very functional
and can revive most old computers
however because of its design
it can never be made as efficient
as corepup/tinycore
however it can be cut down to have just the stuff you need
to make it as small as possible
first you have to decide what you want
and then you could just remaster the iso
to add the stuff you do want
and remove what you don't want
i don't think it would be worth messing with woof-ce
thats just a big unnecessary build and tweak process
since you want a distro that already works well to start with
as for woof-ce
the problem is that it is too complex and unwieldy
for the average person to use
but the gurus are using it to make puppies
so it seems to work for them
woof-ce is not responsible for the bloat
its the size of the components you choose
i personally do not see any further use
in trying to make puppy a minimal system
since as i said its design limits its efficiency
so i will return to working on corepup
wanderer
puppy is small
but very functional
and can revive most old computers
however because of its design
it can never be made as efficient
as corepup/tinycore
however it can be cut down to have just the stuff you need
to make it as small as possible
first you have to decide what you want
and then you could just remaster the iso
to add the stuff you do want
and remove what you don't want
i don't think it would be worth messing with woof-ce
thats just a big unnecessary build and tweak process
since you want a distro that already works well to start with
as for woof-ce
the problem is that it is too complex and unwieldy
for the average person to use
but the gurus are using it to make puppies
so it seems to work for them
woof-ce is not responsible for the bloat
its the size of the components you choose
i personally do not see any further use
in trying to make puppy a minimal system
since as i said its design limits its efficiency
so i will return to working on corepup
wanderer
@ wanderer:
I read somewhere that the development of Core had been put on hold indefinitely.
Is that true?
@oui:
There are other factors than a larger size that may make a user decide against
Puppy. How about a boot loader that cannot boot all other Puppies? Would that
qualify as a deterrent? Please see here. I discovered this yesterday. The devs
at woof-CE should pay attention to these things.
BFN.
I read somewhere that the development of Core had been put on hold indefinitely.
Is that true?
@oui:
There are other factors than a larger size that may make a user decide against
Puppy. How about a boot loader that cannot boot all other Puppies? Would that
qualify as a deterrent? Please see here. I discovered this yesterday. The devs
at woof-CE should pay attention to these things.
BFN.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
-
oui
it is wonderful (I did, for myself, eliminate it, because I use the full Spectrum of Seamonkey: Browser, Mail, IRC, and, most important for me, HTML WYSYG editor. But I can understand that some one will simply surf in the web, and probably is that built in Firefox better than the built-in Seamonkey. The size difference between both causes an important economy of size!Smithy wrote:@Oui,
how about trying something in this ball park?
DELL SX280 750 MB Pentium4, =Thin Slacko
Acer emachines 2 GB AMD64. =Thin Slacko
DELL XPS15 =Thin Slacko
https://archive.org/download/Puppy_Linux_ThinSlacko
99mb, you're not really going to do any better than that.
If it was possible to interchange that built in Firefox with a browser release able to show HTML5, ThinSlacko would be an exceptional and actual enough Puppy yet until today!
(I did test remastering again (reason: after localization, not only poor test! Change in localization, change in /etc/clock/ , change in /etc/X11/xorg.conf to introduce KbVariant) and the size did stay preserved! Perfect!!!
For those starting out the CDROM, it is a great difference to read only 99 MB instead of more than 200 MB or more
!!As playing time, I did test (again) old CD's from me! Enjoy:
(It seems both would work willing on my i7 laptop (but I was not able to start the network: I did never use 0.20. My first release was 0,24, I have also yes the CD, but I did never use network! At that time, I did connect directly through the phone modem and can remember it was easy...). We also have Puppy's for RAM size up 48 MB! My modern Vertical Mouse works but is slow. The screen resolution is better as at that time on old PC's from that time! You can see yourself the evolution of the scope of app's between 2 releases in a few months...)
.
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- Pyppy-0.4-ISOsize20MB.jpg
- (69.22 KiB) Downloaded 299 times
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- Puppy-0.7.4.jpg
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oui
(the build in CD burner is defect since months or better years!