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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Next Puppy Development
Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?.
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Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?
Help hold onto their turn-of-the-century computers
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
Become an entry system for the aspiring hacker/developer
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Become a minimal modular system (a’la tinycore)
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Expand its size and become a “provide everything OOTB” (a’ la Mint or Elementary), but in a layered OS
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Maintain current focus and try to increase conformity (and likely size) with more traditional linuxes and built methods
36%
 36%  [ 14 ]
“whatever” as long as we have fun…
21%
 21%  [ 8 ]
All/None of the above
21%
 21%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 38

Author Message
mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3071

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 23:54    Post subject:  

C'mon people....
More that 100 logged in in the last 24h.
Just vote. No comment is necessary.
Anything below 30 has no statistical power!
We need at least 50 to start getting something that we could consider.

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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1375

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 23:58    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
C'mon people....
More that 100 logged in in the last 24h.
Just vote. No comment is necessary.
Anything below 30 has no statistical power!
We need at least 50 to start getting something that we could consider.


Unless you randomly pick the respondents (as opposed to allowing them to self select), then there is no statistical significance regardless of how many people answer.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3071

PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr 2019, 01:27    Post subject:  

dancytron wrote:
mavrothal wrote:
C'mon people....
More that 100 logged in in the last 24h.
Just vote. No comment is necessary.
Anything below 30 has no statistical power!
We need at least 50 to start getting something that we could consider.


Unless you randomly pick the respondents (as opposed to allowing them to self select), then there is no statistical significance regardless of how many people answer.


Very true if you want to draw "global" conclusions.
But it will better reflect a prevailing view among "regular forum members with an opinion"

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr 2019, 06:34    Post subject:  

We now have 32 bit and 64 bit Puppy

but not on some very cheap new devices:

Arm devices. Raspberry pi and Android tablets and phones

So For Puppy 9 'Toy Dog'
- 32 bit and 64 bit and ARM
- single user security ... GROWL for Puppy 9
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=335216#335216
and maybe the virtual boxes/spaces Barry is adding to EasyOS
- We need more FUN! https://projects.raspberrypi.org/en/
For example xpupsay
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=429491#429491

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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14414
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr 2019, 09:52    Post subject:  

An "honest PuppyLinux" would have the following announcement:

There should be a large posting on the web site of any puplet saying:

"For reasons
1, (brief explanations)
2
3,

this version of PuppyLinux is using cut-down versions of the following
programs and utilities

a
b
c
...
x
y
z.

You may get a complementary package with the full versions of the
above at http;/PuppyLinux/complementary/blablabla.com

Please be on your way and use another distro if you do not agree."

Mind you, this is not new. BK was doing it with his compilations of
Abiword 2.5. NOOO plugins in Abiword for Mr. Kauler back then.

Imagine my anger as a newbie when I came to realize that the complete
and real Abiword had this and that additional features, I felt that I had
been cheated, and I did not like it at all.

But you yourself do not have to cheat just because a famous developer
has done it before you. That's no excuse.

~~~~~~~~~~

Here's more on "half-baked" Puppies.

#1 -- Now to the question of the error log;

Speaking of BK, maybe he has loose morals when it comes to Abiword,
but he also has done a few good hits, and xerrs.log is one of them.

No other distro has it. It's there for a reason,

My suggestion to the woof-CE guys is: "Use it!"

A few years back, Argolance and I had an error-solving contest. trying to
prevent xerrs.log from filling up. It took a few days, but we succeeded.
(Back in a while with the URL for that thread.)

Get this:
a Puppy is ready to be published ONLY when NO ERRORS are
logged into /tmp/xerrs.log.


No GTK2 themes errors; no GLIBC errors; no errors whatsoever, period.

Sure, xerrs.log is a development tool; sure, it is not meant to be seen
from the GUI. But what if the user stumbles upon it and sees there are
100 Kb of errors in there. What will (s)he think PuppyLinux'
professionalism? He or she will think that we have none.

I'm sure some will say: "Let's get rid of xerrs.log". And that will say a lot
about your mentality, won't it?

#2 -- PPM will work in any Puppy at any time. PPM will be a mature
enough software that it can modify by itself the URLs of the repos of
the source distro when they change. The user will be spared that
headache.

BFN.

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I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3071

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr 2019, 00:58    Post subject:  

Shocked
Is it really only only 19 users that have a view on what (if anything) the next puppy linux version should focus on?!?
Shocked

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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr 2019, 01:55    Post subject:  

remember what they say
for everyone that answers
there are a great many who concur
but do not post

so i think you should times the answers at least by 10

and it seems that there is a clear majority
advocating maintaining the present focus
and just improving the system that is already in place

i am using the latest puppy 8
and i am amazed at how polished and sophisticated it is
so you guys must be doing something right

wanderer
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3071

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr 2019, 05:45    Post subject:  

wanderer wrote:
so i think you should times the answers at least by 10

That would be true considering that are 30x more visitors than registered users, but this is not my concern.
I guess I still find surprising that someone logs into the forum, so is likely that either using or used at some point a puppylinux version and is active right now, and yet does not have a view on the matter.
Oh well...

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3367
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr 2019, 11:16    Post subject:  

I voted
Quote:
Maintain current focus and try to increase conformity (and likely size) with more traditional linuxes and built methods

But I suppose in the end what will happen depends on Puppy developers themselves.

As you said, Puppy is a do-oracy and things will only happen when people takes up the challenge and do it. I suppose different people are "challenged" in a different way, so different developers will tackle different aspects. Some of these aspects (e.g. "make it easier to use network") are probably compatible with others (e.g. "make it easier for Windows refugees") so cross-polination and cooperation are possible, but some are diametrically opposite ("small is beautiful" vs "include the full GNU version of the utilities") which means that there will be two different puppies.

I'm happy to write this in the day that we have 666philb, peebee, radky, mistfirst, s2434a, musher0, ttuuxxx (he's back, isn't he?), josepj24, and others building puppies (please forgive me if I miss your names - you're no less important, it's just that I'm getting old, that's all).

Numerous developers means we can afford to specialise. And specialisation is good for both Puppy and the developers. Just because comes from Woof-CE doesn't mean that they need to look alike. In fact, the availability of Woof-CE promotes this diversity. Specialisation also afford a degree of uniqueness to each developer's creation (=aka bragging rights).

I foresee to see the days where there will be different puppies catering for different needs. Yes, there were puplets in the past (all coming from the original Puppy), and now instead we have different puplets (all coming from the same Woof-CE, or whatever its successor is).

It would be interesting to see puppies focusing on leading-edge technology, taking a page from that Barry is doing with EasyOS and merged it into Puppy; or puppy that uses overlayfs from gyro, etc. And I'm not talking about experimental releases, but real releases supported by its developer. Or perhaps a Puppy that is made from the latest Woof-CE release ("Puppy unstable", similar to "debian sid").

It would be interesting to see puppies that focuses on smaller size and supports older computers. This will satisfy those who loves smaller size. At the other end of the spectrum: it's good to see Puppy that tries to incorporate all the common GNU tools and full-sized applications, for people who like completeness.

Or how about puppies which is strictly about security. Secure everything, secure by default. I'm sure we're not lacking demands. Suggestions by labbe and rufwoof can be incorporated in this kind of Puppy.

Or how about puppy that looks beautiful by default (not that the current ones are bad looking, but looks can always be improved). I'm sure plenty of us can always appreciate a good-looking puppy.

Or how about "talking" Puppy, Puppy for the blind (or nearly blind).

Or how about "community Puppy". Just like the good old Puppy CE days (or Lupu days, where playdayz basically run and continuous poll while building it). Just because we have Woof-CE doesn't mean that we cannot do this again; there are far too many users that there are developers.

Those are just examples, there are so many other possibilities.

Of course, mainly, this will only happen if there are developers who are interested to pick up these specific challenges. And in case there aren't, and some of you are really keen, you can try to that yourself too. That's the beauty of Puppy, the line between "users" and "developers" are very thin; in fact, I would say that many of current crops of "developers" started as "users" in this very forum. Give it a try, for fun. If things don't work then ask.

In the end, Puppy is Puppy as we all make it to be.

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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5493
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr 2019, 11:53    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
Shocked
Is it really only only 19 users that have a view on what (if anything) the next puppy linux version should focus on?!?
Shocked


@ Mavrothal:-

Before I go any further, I'll just say this; please don't take the following sentence out of context. Just bear in mind that we don't all of us eat, drink, sleep, breathe and shit Puppy, 24/7.

Most users of Puppy are quite happy to use whatever's developed by those who are interested in that kind of thing. I think it's fair to say that the core Puppy 'development team' is quite small, yes? You guys are totally committed to what you're doing - anyone with a pair of eyes can see that - and I'm sure I speak for most of us when I say that we really, really appreciate what you guys do for the whole community.

But I know this much; I, personally, don't have any strong views on the matter one way or the other. And I'm 100% certain that even if I did, it would be a waste of time my voicing them. I doubt anyone would listen.....and no; before you say it, I have no interest at all in getting involved in the madness of Github. On the two occasions when I did try to post a comment or question, both messages were deleted almost the instant they were posted. I have no intentions of learning the intricacies of some arcane system of communication simply to make a suggestion. If Github were to make its communication channels a bit less of a mystery, perhaps.....but as it is, forget it. It's not going to happen. And besides, specialists in any field tend to be narrowly-focused on their specialty.....and human nature being what it is, tend to assume everybody else shares their interest & thinks as they do. And that's not intended as an insult; it's merely a statement of fact.

To my way of thinking, wanderer is correct. The current Pups are really very good. Maintain the focus as is, and just strive, perhaps, to improve the 'polish'.

Not everybody wants the same thing out of any system, so to a certain extent it has to 'generalize'. You cannot focus too precisely. And in any case, the whole point of Linux is that you modify things to suit yourself. At least, that's what I've always understood to be the case.....


Mike. Wink

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 01:32    Post subject:  

Great insights guys Cool

I am currently just a user, with limited time for my support role as official crustacean ( which mainly involves fish eating Embarassed )

My usage needs have changed. Using a tablet for much of my computing.

Barry and Team Puppy taught me the potential of Linux and weaned me completely off Widows (the ubiquitous declining OS from MacroSoft). Wink

Personally I feel a Security Hardened Puppy initiative would be attractive to many users. Idea

The diversity will be there. Faster or rolling updates are another functional possibility. Idea

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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3071

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 01:43    Post subject:  

Mike Walsh wrote:
I doubt anyone would listen.....and no; before you say it, I have no interest at all in getting involved in the madness of Github. On the two occasions when I did try to post a comment or question, both messages were deleted almost the instant they were posted.

I think that there are good indications that woof-ce @ github is a place that people discuss issues and take actions. She the for example discussions on 312 issues settled one way or another.
As far as I know you can not delete issues raised on github.
Do you mean that the issues where closed?
Which ones are they? (if closed).
Regarding github madness, to discuss/suggest you just need to register (as in this forum) and open an issue or comment on a commit (as in this forum).
But I think we may be getting off topic with github here.

jamesbond wrote:
I voted
Quote:
Maintain current focus and try to increase conformity (and likely size) with more traditional linuxes and built methods

But...
Quote:
...I meant to vote
“whatever” as long as we have fun…
Razz

But seriously, I would agree that a 2-400MB system can not be everything to everyone and the hundreds of variants as @ally will tell you, is a good thing, specially when they do not come wrapped in a black box.
However, a lot of times there are voices suggesting that one of these "specialised" systems should be the focus of an "official" poppylinux. So I thought to check if this is a lot of commotion by few or a general sentiment among forum members.
Of course with 23 votes is hard to draw any conclusion other than "whatever" (which I would have voted, if I had)

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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 04:17    Post subject:  

hi mavrothal

since it seems that some people have problems with github
do you think this subforum/thread
would be an appropriate alternative place
for them to post their suggestions etc
so they felt that the woof-ce gurus at least are hearing them

wanderer
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3079
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 04:23    Post subject:  

An observation - More than a quarter of those that voted selected the all of the above/none of the above option. This to me says that the poll can not be seen to cover all scenarios and that puppyists who voted for that category surely have something to add to this thread in the form of commentary (and not restricted to a vote only)...and should be encouraged to do so.
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1817
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 06:28    Post subject:  

The directions given in first post concerning the vote said:

Code:
PS2: this is for puppylinux “the distribution”, not puppylinux inspired OSs


Hence I haven't voted since I'm not using Puppy or woof-CE nowadays. I do however continue to use one of the DebianDogs (XenialDog64) as my daily work machine though I'm mainly developing/experimenting on/with Void Linux at the moment because, whilst totally different to Puppy, its independent design [not relying on upstream Debian/Ubuntu/Slackware repos] reminds me of the earlier Pup days.

Otherwise I'm mainly not caring about which distro I'm using since I'm mainly just experimenting with initramfs, overlayfs, (switch-pivot-ch)root and stuff like that to see if I can work out some new tricks with these mechanisms.

I am nevertheless following what's going on in the forum more generally since there are many interesting pieces of work being currently pursued that I find quite thought-provoking.

wiak

EDIT: After looking at the categories further I decided just to vote anyway - to "just have fun" since that is a positive goal for any distro to provide its users.

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