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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Next Puppy Development
Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?.
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Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?
Help hold onto their turn-of-the-century computers
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
Become an entry system for the aspiring hacker/developer
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Become a minimal modular system (a’la tinycore)
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Expand its size and become a “provide everything OOTB” (a’ la Mint or Elementary), but in a layered OS
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Maintain current focus and try to increase conformity (and likely size) with more traditional linuxes and built methods
36%
 36%  [ 14 ]
“whatever” as long as we have fun…
21%
 21%  [ 8 ]
All/None of the above
21%
 21%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 38

Author Message
s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 2124

PostPosted: Sun 07 Apr 2019, 11:00    Post subject:  

darry19662018 wrote:
Over the last week I have been somewhat dismayed at how pulseaudio and systemd are creeping into puppy - for example stretch has pnmixer instead of retrovol an app that doen't rely on pulseaudio I also see the dependency of systemd with xorg server this very bad. Puppy is an independent distro and should in future avoid this rubbish.

I would like to see T2 returned to Woof CE to build a slimmer pup like Racy, 4.31 etc as well Devaun which is frankly a better base than systemd infected debian and ubuntu.

Also look into other distros like alpine and void linux for bases.


Have you tried the following puppy?

puduan-7.0.0a1 (Devuan Ascii) woof-ce testing

perhaps it might help somewhat address these concerns Smile
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darry19662018

Joined: 31 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Apr 2019, 14:13    Post subject:  

Yes I have - buggy but nice. Like I said development in CE was dropped - a strange decision.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3067

PostPosted: Mon 08 Apr 2019, 02:00    Post subject: Re: Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?.  

mavrothal wrote:
I know that similar “discussions” went on in the past (as this section suggests), and like the previous ones this one may have no result other than an enjoyable “watering hole” discussion, but you never know…


After a week, we do.

@Flash Please remove the poll as it served is purpose and leaving it longer will be misleading I think.
I just post the final count below for record keeping.
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


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PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr 2019, 03:19    Post subject:  

Quote:
a script to build and remaster cores sfs files and pets
so you could make one that has the stuff you want


How possible in coding terms is it to have Menu styles.

eg: Noob, Geek, Programmer, General use, Minimalist, Everything etc?

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darry19662018

Joined: 31 Mar 2018
Posts: 637
Location: Rakaia

PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr 2019, 04:31    Post subject:  

s243a wrote:
darry19662018 wrote:
Over the last week I have been somewhat dismayed at how pulseaudio and systemd are creeping into puppy - for example stretch has pnmixer instead of retrovol an app that doen't rely on pulseaudio I also see the dependency of systemd with xorg server this very bad. Puppy is an independent distro and should in future avoid this rubbish.

I would like to see T2 returned to Woof CE to build a slimmer pup like Racy, 4.31 etc as well Devaun which is frankly a better base than systemd infected debian and ubuntu.

Also look into other distros like alpine and void linux for bases.


Have you tried the following puppy?

puduan-7.0.0a1 (Devuan Ascii) woof-ce testing

perhaps it might help somewhat address these concerns Smile


Revisting Devuan 7.0.0a1 Nice version not as good as Mushers version 6 but defo worth fiddling with as it is quite stable. No firewall so installed Peasy firewall monitor.

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Puppyt

Joined: 09 May 2008
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Location: Gatton, Queensland

PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr 2019, 05:47    Post subject:  

Ok I just voted for "All/None of the above".

I have been thinking today about comments I think from both/either wiak and/or darry19662018's similar comments elsewhere on the forum about Puppy's apparent trend recently to follow the "big dogs". Ah - I think it was in the (EDIT!) "I'm sick of systemd and PulseAudio..." thread. Through a bit of meandering earlier I found a diatribe from Stallman (RS) regarding Ubuntu as spyware (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP8CNp-vksc), within a broader consideration of FOSS and "ethical" software, as it pertains to his definition of "freedom". I am pretty sure it has been nosystemdthanks who has mentioned a similar ideal with his associated goals on the Puppy forum (his signature had a link to a well-considered manifesto, in my opinion). So - without fully groking the implications of "proprietary blebs" (blobs?) of code in the Linux kernel etc., my vote is for a fully "ethical" /GNU Puppy with all those historical proprietary trappings removed. Puppy is already an environment of pretty decent ethics in my regard, regarding its existing and hopefully expanding reach over a burgeoning range of hardware (EDIT) otherwise consigned to technological obsolescence 'cos it won't run the latest version of Windows (coming soon to your old smartphone?). Why not go the whole hog? or dog? for a *fully* Ethic Pup base?

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Last edited by Puppyt on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 18:33; edited 1 time in total
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3067

PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:59    Post subject:  

Puppyt wrote:
my vote is for a fully "ethical" /GNU Puppy with all those historical proprietary trappings removed

Something like that (4 links) was available few years back, and would be easy to repeat with trisquel 8/9
The many hardware incompatibilities and the lack of many audio/visual codecs however, make it a very limiting OS and is probably the major reason that librepup did not fly.
Would be easy to redo as it is basically an ubuntu-based pup, but did you check if trisquel 8 actually works on your hardware?. If it does not, a libre/ethical/free pup will not either.

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Puppyt

Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr 2019, 18:32    Post subject:  

Thanks mavrothal, for pointing those out for me. Actually I rushed my comment off last night and was concerned it would expose my general ignorance of "true" "free" software, free-dom as considered by the FSF, and other high-end philosophical matters. I guess my grasp is not so much puritanical, but rather an issue of transparency that I feel that future Puppy could adhere its core values towards. Reading through the list of choices in the poll, I had the impression that most were actually emergent features of the existing modular model of Puppy.
And, with a little more poking around under stones, I see that Stallman also acknowledges/had acknowledged the impracticalities of doing without proprietary blobs in hardware drivers. (What about getting the hardware manufacturers to 'surrender' their code to the GPL??) Great to see that Trisquel is still being developed - I only ever had sideways glances at Iguleder's later projects - they seemed too highbrow for my needs for just getting on with integrating with all my MicroSoft-bound associates, as Puppy already provided for me.
So as an end-user and not a developer who has better grasp of the free-dom concepts and practicalities, I apologise for my muddled interpretation of the issue that nonetheless appeals to my philosophical bent: IS THERE AN ALTERNATIVE? That's essentially how I came to Linux via Puppy - realising that Windows was a loose framework to support shadowy third-party wheeler-dealings that I no longer wanted to buy into. I really cannot stand the doublespeak of Microsoft's "security" updates, when by the very nature of its deliberately faulted design the overall performance of my modern hardware is eroded away from its true potential.

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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 2124

PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr 2019, 18:55    Post subject:  

Puppyt wrote:
Thanks mavrothal, for pointing those out for me. Actually I rushed my comment off last night and was concerned it would expose my general ignorance of "true" "free" software, free-dom as considered by the FSF, and other high-end philosophical matters. I guess my grasp is not so much puritanical, but rather an issue of transparency that I feel that future Puppy could adhere its core values towards. Reading through the list of choices in the poll, I had the impression that most were actually emergent features of the existing modular model of Puppy.
And, with a little more poking around under stones, I see that Stallman also acknowledges/had acknowledged the impracticalities of doing without proprietary blobs in hardware drivers. (What about getting the hardware manufacturers to 'surrender' their code to the GPL??) Great to see that Trisquel is still being developed - I only ever had sideways glances at Iguleder's later projects - they seemed too highbrow for my needs for just getting on with integrating with all my MicroSoft-bound associates, as Puppy already provided for me.
So as an end-user and not a developer who has better grasp of the free-dom concepts and practicalities, I apologise for my muddled interpretation of the issue that nonetheless appeals to my philosophical bent: IS THERE AN ALTERNATIVE? That's essentially how I came to Linux via Puppy - realising that Windows was a loose framework to support shadowy third-party wheeler-dealings that I no longer wanted to buy into. I really cannot stand the doublespeak of Microsoft's "security" updates, when by the very nature of its deliberately faulted design the overall performance of my modern hardware is eroded away from its true potential.


A compromise might be to move the non-free stuff out of the base sfs and into another sfs such as the Adrv or one of the "extra sfs".
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr 2019, 23:58    Post subject:  

Puppyt wrote:
I guess my grasp is not so much puritanical, but rather an issue of transparency that I feel that future Puppy could adhere its core values towards.

Which part of official woof-ce built puppies you think deviate from transparency that puppylinux 9 should be more vigilant about?

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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 00:16    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
Puppyt wrote:
I guess my grasp is not so much puritanical, but rather an issue of transparency that I feel that future Puppy could adhere its core values towards.

Which part of official woof-ce built puppies you think deviate from transparency that puppylinux 9 should be more vigilant about?


The script that builds it is open source, human readable, and available for anyone to download who want to, so I don't know how you could possibly make it more transparent.

FSF ideals sound nice, but in the end they produce software that doesn't work for a lot of hardware or with at least some software.
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Puppyt

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PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 01:51    Post subject:  

Excellent points, thank you s243a (edit soz!), mavrothal and dancytron. The seclusion of proprietary blebs in an optional (read, "probably essential") sfs might provide a conscientious end-user with the opportunity to operate within a wholly *libre* or Trisquel-like ethical software environment. Of course, as soon as they install or use proprietary software - in my case, SoftMaker Office - then the ideal is rattled - but at least the end-user has the fully informed choice to make their own balance.

I really like the fact, and I think it is a major strength - that woofCE is fully transparent, adjustable and documented throughout. That is, as I understand it - as I inferred with my earlier use of 'grok', I'm really a stranger in a strange land when it comes to even that level of coding. That fact that the Puppy base has always been DIY-friendly by design is also a major "selling" point. It could be as simple as swapping kernels, constructing your own SFS archives, and so on. There's that invitation, if you will, for the "user" to be an active element within the entire process that underlies one of the reasons why I find Puppy so engaging (re the "...just have fun" option in the poll) - even if I don't quite have the time to follow through on finding the elegant solution to a given issue. Perhaps that is the essence of where I feel Puppy-9 should head - what other linux distro gives its user full rein to go off the leash, without the throwbacks to "administrator-level permissions"? Oh - might be useful to have multi-user capacity and administrator-level securities to be included in an optional SFS, so that another "complaint" about root access can be defused. Real choice, that is Smile

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darry19662018

Joined: 31 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 03:16    Post subject:  

Mmmmm interesting idea Puppyt for separating proprietary firmware from main sfs. My main concern though was how systemd and pulseaudio are creeping into puppy development especially systemd. I have seen how other distros have struggled to keep systemd out but as packages become more dependent upon it the more difficult the "resistance" is.

I dismayed was the use of gnome-mixer in Stretch and pnmixer when we have the excellent retrovol which isn't dependent on systemd.

So I'll say the one more time developers beware of the systemd hook and avoid it as much as possible. By the way I am not criticizing the quality of Stretch just the Systemd inclusions and pulse-audio.

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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 04:51    Post subject:  

darry19662018 wrote:
Mmmmm interesting idea Puppyt for separating proprietary firmware from main sfs.

In some resent puppies (all by PB) the firmware is on a separate SFS. Just rename it so will not load and see if your system will work.
However, there are still blobs and non-free stuff. Foremost the grub/grub2/grub4dos that boots the machine and then most of the audio/video codecs. Other things that tisquel also purges from Ubuntu are not usually in puppies.
darry19662018 wrote:
My main concern though was how systemd and pulseaudio are creeping into puppy development especially systemd.

Would you mind defining creeping? AFAIK neither puppylinux not fatdog use systemd to manage the system. Only some(?) (all?) debiandogs do, I think.
Puppylinux/fatdog just have a library that is needed for many applications to run.
If down the road these applications also require systemd to control the machine, then we'll be in real trouble. Hopefully this will not happen or if it does would be possible to bypass.

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wiak

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PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 05:32    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
AFAIK neither puppylinux not fatdog use systemd to manage the system. Only some(?) (all?) debiandogs do, I think.


It was an early principle in the design of the Dogs that the user was given choice what boot system they wanted to use, which I personally like since not being able to experiment with systemd would leave me with no technical knowledge about it and leave me ignorant on how to set it up should I happen to be on say a full RedHat or Ubuntu system etc. As far as I remember, in the Dogs it is simply a matter of a kernel boot parameter to determine whether sysVinit or systemd will be used. Certainly it seems, from what I've read, that systemd functionality more generally is becoming expected to be present so may become a dependency of other system components - which will become a problem for any system attempting to stick to sysVinit or some other init boot mechanism. Choice is good though since user doesn't otherwise need to use systemd when they do not want to (and they have the choice should circumstances demand it).

Pulse-audio is the other issue of course, but not such a major one I feel. I presume apulse acts as a fake pulse-audio API but passes control onto alsa directly thereafter - that kind of solution appears to be the best in terms of satisfying pulse-audio dependency when actually just wanting to use alsa directly; but again choice is good - either way, a standard audio application interface (which is what pulse-audio aims to be) makes it easier for app developers (such as firefox).

Actually, I do use actual pulse-audio in my Dog system, and systemd as it happens... but not for any preferential reason - just working for me, so can't be bothered cutting them out.

When I'm running Void Linux, I'm using its default runit system instead of systemd, which works nicely. I generally just quickly install pulse-audio there when I want sound to work with firefox, though I could use apulse instead of course, but don't feel the need to fake it.

wiak

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