I'm told I need a new puppy (Solved)

[icosahedron]

Hi guys,

My antique laptop just died and I've had to buy a new one.

Unfortunately, the new one has Windoze 10 pre-installed (which my wife wants, so I can't delete it).

For some reason, the new laptop doesn't seem able to boot from USB, so I can't use my flash drive with my old live-in-RAM Lucid 5.2.5 on it.

I phoned the manufacturer's helpline, and they're telling me that their new laptops, which use something called UEFI (whatever that is), can't see my old Puppy drive, and I need to update my Puppy to a version that is compatible with UEFI if I want to use it on my new laptop.

Is that right, or is this Windoze-inspired BS?

My old laptop had 'Boot from USB' prioritized over 'boot from HDD' In the BIOS Boot Menu, and it opened Puppy if the USB was plugged in, or Win 7 if it wasn't. The new laptop doesn't show a USB option in the BIOS Boot Menu. The only thing it shows is Boot from Windows, whether the Puppy drive is plugged in or not.

If I need a new Puppy, fair enough, but I just want to be sure I'm not being hoodwinked by the computer company in cahoots with Micros***.

Thanks.

This matter has now been solved. Yes, I did need a new Puppy.

The primary issues seemed to be that:
1. Secure Boot needed to be disabled.
2. My old copy of Lucid Puppy was not UEFI compatible and could not be recognised by the Boot Menu of my new computer, even with Secure Boot disabled.
3. My new copy of BionicPup was likewise not UEFI compatible because it had been created from the iso using Grub4dos.

Learning how to disable Secure Boot and obtaining a UEFI compatible copy of Puppy solved the matter.

[darry19662018]

Hi,

You either need a Pup with uefi support or disable uefi, but this will stop win10 running and allow you to run 525.



http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=113244

[bigpup]

Yes, you need a very new Puppy version.
They only have the firmware and Linux kernel to support the newest hardware.
Suggest Bionicpup64 8.0

If you tell us the specific make and model of the laptop we could probably tell you how to setup the bios to boot from other devices.

UEFI bios is what you have.
All new computers have it.
You can do a Google search for UEFI bios to read about what it is.

Usually need to do this.
To get the computer to boot from a USB flash drive.
(just as it boots press F2 or F10 or some other F key)
Go into the bios setup.
Usually in the security section or boot section of bios setup.
Look for a setting to disable secure boot or enable legacy boot.
It may have both or only one.
Usually enable legacy boot is only needed.
This should now allow other boot devices to be used.
Now you should be offered other boot devices to set in the boot device order.

Also, when you just start to boot the computer.
Should be an option to bring up a boot device selection menu.
Press one of the F keys. (F8, F10, etc... whatever it is for your bios)

Well, on my UEFI bios computers.
Windows 10 on the hard drive.
Will still boot Windows 10 if legacy boot is enabled or secure boot is disabled.
Legacy boot enabled also disables secure boot.

[icosahedron]

Thanks guys.

Disabling UEFI/Windows10 is not an option, it would probably end in divorce!

There is no Legacy Boot option listed. I’ve disabled Secure Boot, but it still can’t see the USB drive, it shows only ‘Boot from Windows’ in the Boot menu.

Perhaps a ‘very new’ Puppy is the only way to go. I knew I should have bought an older, second-hand computer. The new one is an ACER Aspire 1, A114-32-C2VZ, 4GB DDR4

Does BionicPup64 8.0 boot live from a USB into RAM? I really don’t want to go down the dual-install route.

[Geek3579]

I faced the same situation earlier in the year with a newer UEFI enabled computer and while the information presented earlier is largely correct, there ARE options available to you. Be aware that the details below are not a recipe, but an outline of methods I have found effective and reliable.

You say that you do not have a Legacy Boot option, which is why the boot process does not recognize the old USB, and never will. This can be overcome by installing files which contains all the required UEFI code (which gets the boot process past THE major impediment) and which can them potentially load a legacy (ie non-UEFI) Puppy OS. For this succeed, the GRUB2 menu/config script must suitably edited to include the newly added Puppy OS.

1) It seems the simplest method is outlined in http://helledussen.com/linux/files/UEFI ... e_usb.html and discussed in http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=943608

This method loads a suitable UEFI compliant set of files which can access a frugally installed Leagcy (non-UEFI) Puppy OS. I have found this to be a very reliable method, although older Puppies may not have appropriate drivers in the kernel for modern computers and the boot process is more likely to fail.

2) The second method, or groups of methods involves loading a UEFI compliant set of files as part of a frugal installation of FATDOG 64. Again, other Puppies can then be added frugally provided the GRUB2 config scripts is suitably changed.

This is outlined in http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=109396, although the process is quite involved.

An easier alternative is based on http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 706#865706, and http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 727#818727

Also look at http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=97141, which gives examples of GRUB2 config scripts.

Substantial amounts of detail about this subject can be found at http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=100422 and http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=86286

[jp734]

Hello icosahedron - FYI, Xenial Puppy 7.5 is now available with UEFI support and yes you can boot live from usb with it. Also, if you don't mind, can you please share what laptop did you buy. We are also looking into purchasing a new laptop soon and I don't want to end up purchasing one that doesn't support legacy boot option. Thanks.

[Mike Walsh]

@ icosahedron:-

Have you disabled the 'FastBoot' stuff as well? (That's the stuff that merely hibernates Win10 all the time, instead of properly shutting 'er down.)

Don't take this as gospel, but AFAIK, both SecureBoot and FastBoot need to be disabled, before it's possible to access 'LegacyBoot'. And even then, with some manufacturers, they will go out of their way to obfuscate things, and hide it. It'll be there - Somewhere! - but you may need to do some digging to find it. The manufacturers don't really want you to find it, for some strange reason..!

Might help, might not.... Worth a try, at least.


Mike.

[bigpup]

The problem is not all UEFI bios is the same.
The computer manufactures put their own setup to what is in the bios options and what settings can be changed.

What we are telling you is the general procedures that apply.

About Bionicpup64 8.0 and booting from a live install on a USB flash drive.
Yes, it should boot on a UEFI bios.
It has the needed stuff for UEFI bios booting.

About Puppy running in RAM.
A Puppy version, installed as a live install or a frugal install, always runs in RAM.

[tallboy]

This may be an alternative solution: If you download and install the program Lick to your Win 10, you can install as many Puppys as you like - as frugal installs - along your Windoze, with a boot menu as first choice when you start or reboot your computer. It works very well, and it is very fast. I have just done it on a laptop, with Win 10 on it (deleted now ). BTW, Windows will not know about this, and cannot make any protests!
Lick wants an .iso, you can just enter the address to any Puppy .iso, you don't have to download it and burn it to a CD/DVD.

For your situation, it means that you can use your lovely Lucid in your old PC, and make an .iso. I have used Lucid 5.2.8.7, and as I recall, there is a menu option to make an .iso from your Lucid. If the PCs communicate online, you can use Lick to download your Lucid .iso to your Windows 10. It doesn't care about things like bios and UEFI, it just works.
Read about it here:
Puppy Linux Windows Installer
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=61404
Download here:
https://github.com/noryb009/lick/releases/latest

geek3579, welcome to the forum! You may have posted the same urls as I have, but it is a bit difficult to read your versions. May I suggest that you hilite your entered urls, and click the URL button above the editing field? The url will be marked, and easier for us to download.

[rockedge]

if all else fails there is the option if there is a CD or DVD drive to boot the computer with PLOP... which you can get and check out it out here
https://www.plop.at/en/bootmanager/download.html

PLOP is a boot manager that will allow almost any computer to boot from a USB drive / stick, even if that machines BIOS will not.

this will work if you can boot the machine from a CDROM /DVD drive.
AND you will not have to touch WIndows 10 in any way

[nic007]

Does this uefi problem arise when you use the Windows bootmanager in a dual-boot setup?

[cthisbear]

I would run a new Puppy from usb.

I love Radky Stretch myself.

Post your complete model specs but I am betting that it's a Toshiba
laptop....because you can only change the boot order through
Windows itself.

So use Puppy from usb...cheap ..cheerful and it will work.

If it is a Toshiba, after running Puppy you will probably have to change the bios again to run Puppy.Anyway please post back and I or others can
give you better answers.

Chris.

[icosahedron]

Hi guys,

Geek 3579 – thanks for the suggestions, but my signature says it all, I don’t have the skills to install bits of file and code, and I don’t have the time to learn. The reason I chose Puppy in the first place was that it was a version of Linux that was designed for non-geeks like me, and it worked out-of-the-box. Anything I use has to be plug and play. Finding and disabling Secure Boot stretched my limits.

JP734 – thanks for the suggestion of Xenial 7.5, I’ll see how that compares with BionicPup64 8.0. I named my new machine in my last post.

Mike Walsh – thanks for that heads-up. I’ll take a look for Fast Boot too. I don’t want anything lurking in the background. Yeah, everything seems to be heading for 1984…

BigPup – thanks, I’ll give BionicPup8.0 a try.

Tallboy – thanks for that option. I’m wary of connecting anything within Windows that professes to work outside of Windows, cos it usually just pretends to be independent. But if you say so, I’ll look it up. Mind you, Lucid was getting a bit long in the tooth anyway, it was getting difficult to keep it talking to Firefox, so perhaps a new Puppy is a better choice.

Rockedge – Thanks, I’ll take a look at PLOP, but the new machine doesn’t have a CD drive, I’d have to plug an external oneinto USB, and I doubt if the UEFI could see it on the USB port…

Nic007 – Dunno, all I’ve tried so far is to plug my old Puppy USB into the slot, and try to change the boot order. That’s about my limits with technology.

cthisbear – yeah, I’ll try a new Puppy. The new machine is an ACER.

[icosahedron]

Guys,
This will probably sound like a stupid question, but how do I make a portable USB copy of BionicPup from its .iso file?

X years back (or maybe XX years, now) I kickstarted Puppy by using something called (IIRC) Burniso2cd. I made a bootable CD of it and then, once Puppy was useable, I used Puppy Universal Installer to create a bootable USB of Lucid 525.

However, I realize that since CDs have gone the way of the Dodo I now have no clue how to create a Puppy from scratch, using either an old version of Puppy or Win 10.

I just tried using the Universal Installer on my old Puppy to create a Boot Flash, but it's 'failed a sanity check' looking for nonexistent Lupu 525 files in the BionicPup iso, and I haven't the foggiest how to create a boot USB from an iso in Windows.

[Mike Walsh]

@ icosahedron:-

Guys,
This will probably sound like a stupid question, but how do I make a portable USB copy of BionicPup from its .iso file?

Not a stupid question at all, considering the sheer number of different apps/progs that are available for exactly this purpose.

First, though, I would re-format your USB stick in gParted. Even if it's run Puppy before, I'd still re-format, to give yourself a clean, fresh start. Use ext3 (not ext2, nor ext4.....which gives problems with 64-bit installs). Don't forget to give yourself a swap partition, too.....and be sure to set the 'Boot' flag.

Better still, do all the above to a new USB stick. You can still use Lucid that way.

--------------------------------------------

Then, I'd do a 'quick & dirty' install.....which is not as awkward as it sounds. You can do this in Lucid, no problem. No need to mess around in Windows.

Having downloaded your ISO file, click on it to mount it, and display the contents. Move this ROX window to one side, and leave it open.

Making sure your USB drive is plugged in, click on the drive icon to open a second ROX window. Now; highlight the contents of the first ROX window with the ISO files. Click ( and hold), then drag across to the second window, and drop; select 'Copy' (a read-only file system won't let you 'Move'.)

That's the first bit. Close both windows.

Go to Menu->System->Grub4DOS bootloader config. In some newer Pups, it may be in Setup rather than System. Fire it up.

Choose your USB drive from the list on the left. Over at the top of the right-hand side, select 'Search within only this device'. Click 'OK'.

Next window shows what it's found, and what will be displayed on the Boot menu list. You can edit the names if you want to. Click 'OK'.

Next window asks if you're ready to install Grub4DOS. If you're happy with everything, click 'OK'.

-----------------------------------------

Click the drive icon for your USB drive. You should now see 3 additional items; a binary 'gear-wheel' thingy called 'gldr', and 2 text files.....'menu.lst' (small 'L', not a '1'), and 'menu-advanced.lst'. If those 3 are present, you should be home and dry.

Now you just need to try and boot! Let us know what happens, please; you may need to faff around with the UEFI stuff to find the right order of things for Puppy to boot. That'll be the next challenge.....


Mike.

[mikeslr]

The most hurdle-free method of getting any Puppy to work with a UEFI windows computer is LICK, Puppy Linux Windows Installer http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 720#462720. It's an exe file you install and run under Window. You then install the Puppy of your choice --Bionicpup64 or Xenialpup64 recommended-- to a USB-Key and boot it from there. [Analogous to the 'old system' -- burn a Puppy to a CD and boot it from there].

It is not completely hassle free. You still have to turn off what windows calls 'fast-boot/fast-startup'. The more accurate Linux name for that is 'hibernate'. Your computer never actually shuts down; so you can't boot into any other operating system. There may be other Window traps you'll also have to disengage such as Intel Smart Response Technology (ISRT) . See http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 159#858159. And you'll still have to give booting from the USB-Stick priority over booting from the Hard-drive.,

IF you can so boot your Puppy, you have the choice of (a) continuing to do so or (b) installing both LICK and your Puppy to a hard-drive. Lick will then be your boot-loader, offering the choice of booting into either Windows or your Puppy. But if you can put up with the inconvenience of having to plug in a USB-Key when you want to boot a Puppy, doing so is safer. Just as the old system of booting from a CD, your window's system remains unaltered: there's no chance of your having done something so that Windows won't boot.

The 3rd possibility requires some effort: Place Puppy in a folder on the hard-drive but, using Lick, boot it from a USB-Stick. Essentially, you'd have to edit Lick's Grub2 config files to look for Puppy on the Hard-drive.

[icosahedron]

Thanks Mike, and Mike.

I got a new flash drive, small ones cost less than a cup of coffee, and Puppy is no memory hog, unlike some systems…

I’ve successfully installed BioncPup via Grub on my new flash drive, using Lucid on an old machine, following Mike Walsh’s instructions (Thanks for the comprehensive instructions at my level, Mike, I’ve copied those for future reference). It’s taken less than 400MB.

I’ve run the new BionicPup USB on the old BIOS machine that I used to install it, so I know it boots OK, and I can explore its new goodies later, but…

I’m still on square one with booting UEFI. The new laptop STILL can’t see the Flash Drive with BionicPup on it. The Boot Menu STILL shows only one option – Boot from Windows. I wonder if this is because I used Grub from my old Puppy to install Bionic? Has it installed as BIOS instead of UEFI, or is that format written into Puppy? I don’t know how the thing says ‘Hi Laptop, look at me, I’m UEFI’, so I don’t know if it’s doing it.

Or, Fast Boot may be causing problems. I can’t find it to switch it off. Do I need to ‘Erase all Secure Boot Settings’ to find it? I currently have Secure Boot disabled, and it seems I need to enable it in order to erase it. If Secure Boot is disabled, does that automatically disable Fast Boot? I can enter the ‘BIOS’ by rattling F2 on startup – does that indicate that Fast Boot is disabled?

If it helps, at the top of the ‘BIOS’ page, where it traditionally says ‘BIOS Setup Utility’, the new version says ‘InsydeH20 Setup Utility’. I assume that’s the ‘brand’ of UEFI being used?

What do I try next, guys?

I’ve downloaded Lick and Plop to check out at my leisure. Thanks for those tips.

[jp734]

Had the same issue with pc not seeing flash drive when I used puppy installer. Used "dd" instead and it worked for me.

[Terry H]

Or, Fast Boot may be causing problems. I can’t find it to switch it off. Do I need to ‘Erase all Secure Boot Settings’ to find it? I currently have Secure Boot disabled, and it seems I need to enable it in order to erase it. If Secure Boot is disabled, does that automatically disable Fast Boot? I can enter the ‘BIOS’ by rattling F2 on startup – does that indicate that Fast Boot is disabled?

Fastboot is a Windows setting, not a BIOS setting. It stops the pc from shutting down completely (so you are unable to boot alternate OS), using hibernate instead. You need to change the setting within Windows settings.

[Mike Walsh]

@ Terry H:-

Thanks for the clarification about FastBoot, Terry. Not having run Windoze for a number of years, and never having had a UEFI-equipped machine, it's not surprising that I made a number of assumptions.

But it seems that it's the SecureBoot/FastBoot combo that stumps so many would-be Linux users.

SecureBoot - which requires the need for a digitally-signed 'key' to let the hardware know that an OS is 'safe' to run, and

FastBoot - which is a beautifully simple way of preventing anything else from running; by constantly 'hibernating', and never actually shutting-down, it's no wonder large numbers of would-be Linux users are faced with the conundrum of 'My machine will only run Windows. WHY???'

It's not such a mystery when you understand those two simple facts. And we really do owe a big vote of 'Thanks' to Kirk and jamesbond for not only biting the bullet, and forking over the required $99 for that digitally-signed 'key', but also for sharing it with the other Puppy devs so that modern Pups can also run on current hardware.....


Mike.