Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Fri 10 Jul 2020, 19:26
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Linux-magazine review of Puppy 20 Aug 2019
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 1 of 2 [18 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
666philb


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3635
Location: wales ... by the sea

PostPosted: Wed 21 Aug 2019, 17:06    Post subject:  Linux-magazine review of Puppy 20 Aug 2019  

"choose a small distro" is on the cover of linux magazine.

i don't want to post it all in case i get into trouble, but here's the puppy part and the final scores
review1.jpg
 Description   
 Filesize   184.11 KB
 Viewed   808 Time(s)

review1.jpg

review2.jpg
 Description   
 Filesize   239.77 KB
 Viewed   820 Time(s)

review2.jpg


_________________
Bionicpup64 built with bionic beaver packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=114311
Xenialpup64, built with xenial xerus packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107331
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2074
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 21 Aug 2019, 19:57    Post subject:  

DISCLAIMER. No offence intended. Devil's advocate approach because I fear wake-up call is needed more than congratulations for still 'alive' status.

There is something far wrong that the DebianDog series doesn't get reviewed out there in the market for such surveys. Personally I think it is definitely the best of the breed, yet it seems to be hardly known. I can only imagine it is because no attempt has been made to promote the DDs outside of this forum - noone that I know of has ever approached, for example, Distrowatch about it. Admittedly the documentation for installing DD is of forum-thread post type only really, so some may balk at trying to understand how to do it (despite it actually being just as easy to install as Puppy). Otherwise I just don't get it - modern DD provides all that Puppy does and really all that full Debian/Ubuntu does - hard to expect anything more in these respects anyway. Okay, so it is just my opinion as someone who has a lot of experience of using both Puppy and DebianDog - it is no accident that Puppy remains on my machine simply for testing things work in Puppy (if they don't I fix them in XenialDog!!!).

And lets not talk about the crowd controlling woof-CE (or woof-CE itself)... My goodness... I doubt anyone bothers with that conversation up there anymore other than those few that are talking to themselves.

Smile

Yeah, Puppy was great fun in its day, and it is amazing that it is still here (and looks so similar to how it did back then, for the most part, in the 2.xx series days when I actually used it - up to around version 4.31 - personally I became tired of it from Wary onwards, so thank goodness , I say, Saintless restarted interest in sickgut's attempts to puppyfy a debianlive-based system). Still, why is DD never published to DistroWatch crowd (who clearly watch out for nothing nowadays unless they are told about it well in advance and formally).

Sorry, if anyone takes offence. I'm just stating my truthful opinion based on tests. Clearly I wouldn't subscribe to that Linux mag since their research is so limited IMO. No doubt Puppy dev is a lot of hard work - but no-one forces anyone to keep developing an old Pup system (and even key woof-CE individuals often criticize the mess of their own system actually... they should move on then). The fact is, reviews that compare Puppy to specially limited systems like tiny core and moreso Slitaz is completely misleading; the comparison should be against the likes of the DebianDogs, or AntiX or similar. The problem is new users are thus still being incouraged to become Puppy users, which will frankly will limit them overtime - no advantage in that route whatsover, and lots of disadvantage, sorry. Puppy is exactly what its name says it is. That was useful once upon a time when so much technology-wise was so limited; that is no longer the case even on what has become very old hardware. And almost nothing innovative happens in Puppy anymore (indeed almost impossible to innovate in Puppy since woof-CE just a jungle of thousands of lines of old code that is difficult enough simply to maintain for the sake of history!).

Puppy forum is a community, or so it is claimed. Actually it is a divisive place ruled by a few old guards who tolerate the new (because they have no choice) but purposively limit their exposure even on the forum itself. Indeed, it has been treated like a crime to say anything negative against Puppy and to tread very carefully indeed if using any of the alternatives on here. For long enough many have feared to promote the very much non-Puppy systems whilst slavering up to all things Puppy, rather than facing that it needs to change. That attitude, more than anything, is what has help Puppy back, reduced its outside rankings, and left it with an odour of stale yesterday's glory. Try as some of us have to input ideas to woof-CE you will there find a team consisting of mainly one guy who never appears (as his github self at least) on this forum and another who 'rarely even uses Puppy nowadays' who has somehow promoted himself to Puppy guardian. It doesn't need guarded - it needs re-designed or will fade into non-existence. It is these few unfortunately pompous behaving guardians who are ensuring a boring end to what once was the innovative nature of continuous Puppy development.
wiak

_________________
WeeDogLinux forum: https://weedoglinux.rockedge.org/viewforum.php?f=4
Tiny Linux Blog: https://www.tinylinux.info/
Check Firmware: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1022797

Last edited by wiak on Thu 22 Aug 2019, 00:41; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
ozsouth

Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 862
Location: S.E Australia

PostPosted: Wed 21 Aug 2019, 23:35    Post subject:  

Take heart, wiak - it's outdated except for ubuntu info - the Slacko reference is to 14.1 - used 14.2 years ago, then there's Slacko current used now by us Slacko fans. The default (save folder) doesn't get a guernsey either. Still, nice to see puppy rated so highly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2074
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 21 Aug 2019, 23:49    Post subject:  

Yes, it's nice to see it rated highly by someone, but such reviews tempt Puppy to continue to stagnate (till it reaches irrelevance) and not face up to the challenge it should (with new blood perhaps) be facing. Above all, this forum needs to change to reflect its new reality, which is very different to the emphasis it has.

I have nothing to say against EasyOS, by the way (though I may not like its alternative woof design if I knew it...) but that is a measure of how development stagnated once BarryK claimed to retire. He didn't actually retire at all of course - we can develop until we fall over... rather, I'd say, he basically abandoned Puppy to the legacy it had become (and left a build system, woof-CE, that allowed that history to be repeated for long after it should have changed). Retiring allowed him to move on with new innovations, but the forum should have moved on too. The DebianDogs were started in 2013! - even Puppy was an old well-established system six years into its development cycle, yet, until recently there have still be arguments and resistance to even the existence of the DDs on this forum, despite the fact it was developed via threads here over these six years. It still has no sections of its own and has to almost apologetically squeeze its threads into Puppy Projects (it is not a Puppy) or, as some have suggested, into Puppy Derivatives (it is a Debian-live derivative, with its most probably more popular version using a modified form of Porteus initramfs, so that one owes much more to Porteus than it ever does to Puppy (which it doesn't even particularly look like...). Anyway, none of these issues are important really. If only there was enough momentum it would indeed be better for these newer designs to have their own forums and wiki sites, but these additions take a lot of work and forum members, being humans afterall, are very much creatures of habit who are used to logging in here to discuss all manner of 'topics'.

wiak

_________________
WeeDogLinux forum: https://weedoglinux.rockedge.org/viewforum.php?f=4
Tiny Linux Blog: https://www.tinylinux.info/
Check Firmware: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1022797
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 13978
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2019, 04:40    Post subject:  

666phlib,
Very good to see you getting some much deserved credit for a very good Puppy version. Very Happy Exclamation


wiak,

Change for the only purpose of change is no way to do anything!!!!!

Look at all the completely dumb stuff Microsoft has done to Windows, all in the name of a new version has to be different!

Puppy is the way it is for some very good reasons.

If you really think Puppy has not changed over the years, you really have not been using it very much.

If you feel that much about things need to change.

Start a topic and start giving some specific ideas, but you better be able to give some good reason for the needed change.

Good example was the idea of being able to make the save a folder and not a file.
But that was not as easy as it sounded.

About Distrowatch.
A developer, of any version of any Linux OS, has to be willing to submit their OS, to Distrowatch, to have it show up there.
They have to submit it! Shocked

_________________
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
YaPI(any iso installer)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3911
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2019, 12:03    Post subject:  

Hi wiak,

I think you were hypercritical of the reviewer. Keeping up with Puppy developments is a full time job. Take a couple weeks off and your knowledge is already antiquated. For example, you may feel like you've been working on FirstRib for a lifetime, but it's only been since May.

A good writer knows the experience level of his readers and structures what he writes to it. The target of the Linux-Magazine's roundup of top small Linux distributions is certainly those new to Linux [with a zillion websites covering Linux generally and specifically, who but a newby purchases print even as pdfs] and likely those who have tried a major distro and now wonder whether there might be something better for an aging computer.

One of the cardinal rules of marketing is that any exposure, even bad press, is better than none. "Better the devil you know". Trump depends on that as he tweets absurdities, keeping himself in the spot light, forcing the opposition to waste precious time and resources in response rather than carefully considering how to move forward.

The article was not intended to be a full exposition of Puppy. How could it be with over 5,000 Puppy variations, plus the dozens of small distribution variations supported by this Forum? Not to mention the cutting edge developments now being tested and developed on and for Puppies.

The specific Puppies mentioned were not bad choices. Within its limits the article was a fair summary, a listing of the ingredients of an amuse bouche overcoming any assumption that it consists of pickled porcupine and cannabis. Encouraged to taste, there will be time enough for the newly exposed to don a bib and gorge on Puppies' smorgasbord.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2074
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2019, 18:15    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
About Distrowatch.
A developer, of any version of any Linux OS, has to be willing to submit their OS, to Distrowatch, to have it show up there.
They have to submit it! Shocked


This is a fair point. Distrowatch didn't start out that way though or what were they watching?


mikeslr wrote:
I think you were hypercritical of the reviewer.
...
"Better the devil you know".
...
The specific Puppies mentioned were not bad choices. Within its limits the article was a fair summary, a listing of the ingredients of an amuse bouche overcoming any assumption that it consists of pickled porcupine and cannabis. Encouraged to taste, there will be time enough for the newly exposed to don a bib and gorge on Puppies' smorgasbord.


Yes, I was purposively hypercritical.

But we also know the DebianDog devils for almost six years now. After six years in development the reviewer should be well aware of such an old alternative, and where was antiX or similar anyway?

Actually, phil's BionicDog is indeed good (considering all the painful steps he has to go through building it via spec files and skeleton root filesystems and so on).

I would not say that woof-CE is good at all, however (not something the reviewer is concerned with I suppose). The likes of BionicDog could continue to be produced via a brand new efficient completely re-designed build system instead of hanging onto the nightmare that is called woof-CE.

The main thing working on FirstRib has done for me is to realise (what I suspected) that the key to a fast efficient and easy to maintain build system is the production of a package manager that works (Void Linux shows that it can be done), works from the commandline, and works without needing a skeleton already put together root filesystem. i.e. just needs busybox and then package manager simply installs a few simple base packages and the rest can be built by developers like phil into any shape and form they wish.

Then the main design of the frugal-installable OS becomes what it should - the design and build system of the all-important initramfs, which gives all the layer handling, sfs handling, save persistence abilities of the distro. Keeping that design separate (and not messed up with having to worry about complex DISTRSPECS and so on) makes it accessible for development and progress. woof-CE, all locks and keys and guardians - I would certainly not call that a community experience, and even for the likes of phil, he can only do what he is provided with in terms of woof-CE facilities.

This forum is a good community-oriented place, that operates around the distros it supports (including the first one produced here, which was Puppy) but it relegates 'other' distros developed by forum members to a few scattered threads of their own making. As a distribution, Puppy itself is not a community oriented design experience, despite the name woof Community-Edition. That is a major flaw in its design and it becomes stale as a result of that IMO, since apart from one or two who are able to produce specs for building a system (peebee and phil) and people still churning out the occasion dotpet or sfs, there is nothing most community members are able or in practice allowed to contribute (yes they can submit 'patches' to the guardians (and one or two try to involve themselves in that), who are very quick to dismiss what does not come from themselves. Anyway, woof-CE needs thrown away and build system designed from base up - that's the main problem. The benevolent dictator BarryK model of creation was an entirely different process (he did encourage new utilities dotpet production for inclusion though).

So, in summary, I was indeed hypercritical of the reviewer, who I guess only reviewed what they are aware of (though a bit of research should have at least revealed the Dogs). And the rest of my comments are in regard to what lies behind that claimed best-of-breed small distro the reviewer has put on the top of the podium, because it is that behind-the-scenes Puppy that really places it far down now of even the Distrowatch list (even compared, say, with antiX, which the reviewer found themself unable to mention either). This forums true competitor compared to the likes of antiX is really the DebianDogs. Slitaz and tinycore are much smaller simpler systems than Puppy, DebianDogs, or antiX.

wiak

_________________
WeeDogLinux forum: https://weedoglinux.rockedge.org/viewforum.php?f=4
Tiny Linux Blog: https://www.tinylinux.info/
Check Firmware: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1022797

Last edited by wiak on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 03:28; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3911
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2019, 21:23    Post subject:  

Hi Wiak,

I pretty much agree with you. Frankly, I'm looking forward to exploring FirstRib as soon as I can clear my plate and my mind. And it is unfortunate the the DebianDog's don't have at least their own SubForum on the Forum, or its inclusion as an Section in an "Other Small Distro SubForum."

The Forum run, however, on software which is now 14 years old. The last modification to its structure was the creation of an Additional Software Section. I don't know how amenable it to to significant changes. Perhaps it better not to 'tempt fate'.

I wonder if we are not constantly tempting fate relying on 14 year old software which now holds over a million posts and grows daily. Or what can be done about that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 1767
Location: Drøbak, Norway

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2019, 01:15    Post subject:  

Hi Wiak.
In a thread some time ago, I said that the forum should primarily be for Puppys, and that non-Puppy based look-alikes could have their own forums. Well, I have changed my mind! A sub-forum, as mikeslr mention, would be welcome. One of the reasons for changing my mind, is that I agree with you regarding woof-ce. I don't think that making almost identical Puppys from different bases is the way to go. I initially liked the latest Stretch-based Dpups, but in a lot of small details, they act different from what I am used to in a Puppy, and I slowly found them to act more like tiny, souped-up Debians, than Puppys. And the Bionic Puppys: how many .delta files are there now? 40? 50? Totally ridiculous!
There was also one incorrect statement in the article:
Quote:
Interestingly, Puppy Linux can also save changes from a live session onto rewritable optical media as well
No, that's not possible with the latest woof-ce based Puppys. The flexibility is gone, frugal or full installation seem to be the only options in recent Puppys.
There have been different build systems in use, like T2 - which seem to be dead now - but I am not sure if such pre-defined build systems are the solution. There seem to be a need for constant upgrade and rebuild of the components in such systems, which take a lot of time and maybe move the focus away from the basic needs. I guess that is the reason why T2 is dead. I wonder if a small Puppy built from scratch will take more time to make, than the time used for maintaining a build system. I am not smart enough to make a Puppy myself, so I may be totally wrong.

_________________
True freedom is a live Puppy on a multisession CD/DVD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
666philb


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3635
Location: wales ... by the sea

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:51    Post subject:  

tallboy wrote:

There was also one incorrect statement in the article:
Quote:
Interestingly, Puppy Linux can also save changes from a live session onto rewritable optical media as well
No, that's not possible with the latest woof-ce based Puppys. The flexibility is gone, frugal or full installation seem to be the only options in recent Puppys.


hi tallboy,

i believe bionicpup64 can still save back to a cd or dvd.

i'll test Smile

_________________
Bionicpup64 built with bionic beaver packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=114311
Xenialpup64, built with xenial xerus packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107331
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15588
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2019, 17:49    Post subject:  Linux-magazine review of Puppy 20 Aug 2019
Subject description: Best of Breed
 

Very Happy Thanks 666philb Cool

Only 4 out of 5 for documentation and support? Tsk, tsk ...
Fortunately everyone with programming skill limitations
can support the noobs and less experienced Puppys and Penguinettes.

Documentation can be updated wiki style ...
http://wikka.puppylinux.com/HomePage

For the rest Puppy gets full marks Cool

... must be doing something right Very Happy
🥳 Well done to our developers Cool

Puppy Linux
Never Perfect, Simply the Best

_________________
Puppy Raspup 8.2 Final Cool
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html Very Happy

Last edited by Lobster on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 11:36; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 15039
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2019, 22:06    Post subject:  

The author of that article forgot to mention, or maybe simply was not aware, that in answer
to some questions or criticisms related to the construction of a recent Puppy, trolls
pretending to belong to the woof-CE Council are sometimes unleashed.

Which makes Puppy a lot less interesting.

_________________
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 1767
Location: Drøbak, Norway

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2019, 23:07    Post subject:  

666philb wrote:
hi tallboy,
i believe bionicpup64 can still save back to a cd or dvd.
i'll test

OK, you're welcome to do that, but I have wasted a lot of time to setup Puppys, only to be met by a final sentence during the savesession-dvd script, saying:
Quote:
Have saved session to live-CD (unless it has not, which is an error).
At that point, there is no reaction from any keyboard input that can make you continue the session, so it simply quits! You just wait and see... Confused
_________________
True freedom is a live Puppy on a multisession CD/DVD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
666philb


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3635
Location: wales ... by the sea

PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2019, 05:00    Post subject:  

tallboy wrote:
666philb wrote:
hi tallboy,
i believe bionicpup64 can still save back to a cd or dvd.
i'll test

OK, you're welcome to do that, but I have wasted a lot of time to setup Puppys, only to be met by a final sentence during the savesession-dvd script, saying:
Quote:
Have saved session to live-CD (unless it has not, which is an error).
At that point, there is no reaction from any keyboard input that can make you continue the session, so it simply quits! You just wait and see... Confused


worked fine on my CD-RW .. Saved to CD without error, then booted and loaded the save off the CD

_________________
Bionicpup64 built with bionic beaver packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=114311
Xenialpup64, built with xenial xerus packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107331
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
666philb


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3635
Location: wales ... by the sea

PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2019, 10:05    Post subject:  

duplicate post
_________________
Bionicpup64 built with bionic beaver packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=114311
Xenialpup64, built with xenial xerus packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107331

Last edited by 666philb on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 10:06; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 2 [18 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.0926s ][ Queries: 12 (0.0217s) ][ GZIP on ]