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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Richard Stallman resigns from Free Software Foundation
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Sep 2019, 04:30    Post subject:  Richard Stallman resigns from Free Software Foundation  


"I am resigning effective immediately from my position in CSAIL at MIT," Stallman wrote in the email, referring to MIT's Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. "I am doing this due to pressure on MIT and me over a series of misunderstandings and mischaracterizations."
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbm74x/computer-scientist-richard-stallman-resigns-from-mit-over-epstein-comments

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foxpup

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Sep 2019, 05:21    Post subject:  

The reasons for this may not be what he says.

Interesting reads are on techrights.
There is more than 1 article. There is more than 1 side to this.
Puppylinux is in one of the articles! Shocked
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Sep 2019, 06:14    Post subject:  

foxpup wrote:
The reasons for this may not be what he says.

Interesting reads are on techrights.
There is more than 1 article. There is more than 1 side to this.
Puppylinux is in one of the articles! Shocked


I didn't know that figosdev wrote for techrights

http://techrights.org/2019/09/17/rms-witch-hunt/

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Sep 2019, 03:49    Post subject:  

Cool

Thanks gals (and guise)
Here is a linked article ...

https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of-the-clueless-nerd/

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stemsee

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PostPosted: Sun 22 Sep 2019, 10:14    Post subject:  

So as I read that article, I thought only of the income/reputation generated for journalists. I wondered how many of them reveal true personal opinion as opposed to carefully constructed politically correct popularist verbage (cockney rhyming slang intended) ... I know that Jesus condemned above all else, hypocrisy!

I remember turning 13, 14, ,15, 16, 17 I hate that world which deprived me of my rights to live and breathe, though laws are changing, yet rightful freedoms are not enforced against brittle, imposed opinion.

At university both male and female lecturers were racist, sexist, agist, nationalistic, opportunistic, erroneous, self-excusing, and frightened of superior intelligence, skill and genius persons. Three of us finished a three hour exam in under 15 minutes; marks were A (blind albino guy), A+ (me), and A* (young muslim intellectual), the fourth to finish was a girl/lady/woman (A*, brazillian mixed race) ... she is heterosexual ... not one Welsh person came anywhere near....but after that, marking changed by the Dr, who routinely coppied previous mit exams without changes, to assess (pun intended) our coursework. She is pro-welsh, and grades for us declined and for the untalented local female students grades increased (makes economic sense to let the average white investor feel special, when thy are not! And also the Chinese money to flow back, because original thought is not a requirement). My computer science paper was re-marked, and my average of 75-80% for the year dropped to 55% from one re-marked down, exam paper. We are contractually not allowed to challenge results, I paid £81,000 for this shit!! I want a refund....yeah, not gonna happen.

The same three guys did not complete the third year successfully on time, as across the board our papers were downmarked for petty things, their opinions, and hatred of genuine talent, and rediculed and socially undermined by the same 'academics'...that's the UK for you! I should have lived in America or Germany.

So, in such a world, I dont give a shit about political correctness, no woman should be in power just because she's a woman, and it's trendy to acheive firsts. No person should be droned to death in their sleep, yet not have freedom to enjoy their senses. Not too young to die, according to CIA actions, but too young to live.

The World is so full of shit, it's drowning in it! The reality is that women take advantage of their protected privileges as the lesser abled gender throughout daily life. That's the fact!! While men generally use their extra capacities in engenuity, war, and other competitiveness, imo ('o'bservations).

The Bible states that if a woman makes herself as a man then she gains the status of a man too! Joan of Arc like.

So i'm with God on this one.

So Epstein taking advantage of a 17 year old women because of her lack of 'money/opportunity/what?' .... where were her guardians during those years, what were her guardians doing .... why have they not been indicted for negligence? So it is an unrealistic construct .... which is usually by the papers or the intelligence services ... follow the money.

Having said that, if everyone were holy and celibate the pos human race would be done in about 50 years. But the ones making the biggest noises are the ones furthest from celibacy. Women's rights seem always to focus on more sexual freedoms, and financial compensations.

So in my opinion Stallman and Epstein behaved according to historic human nature and economic/privileged social status and norms. What's the point in having billions if you can't do what you want while providing financial benefit? The blame is distributive.....the banking CEOs who lead the way, and the governments who fail to impose practices in honesty, and punishments for dishonesty. Money is power and power corrupts. Journalism focuses only on popularist examples but fail to address the most important issues. Trump is right, oder?!

I would not defend anyone specifically but I will generally! As taking advantage is how business works, isnt it?
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Sep 2019, 10:30    Post subject:  

stemsee wrote:

So Epstein taking advantage of a 17 year old women because of her lack of 'money/opportunity/what?' .... where were her guardians during those years, what were her guardians doing .... why have they not been indicted for negligence? So it is an unrealistic construct .... which is usually by the papers or the intelligence services ... follow the money.


Let's get the facts right. Some of Epstein's victims were as young as 13:
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-and-the-myth-of-the-underage-woman/596140/

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musher0

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PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2019, 02:00    Post subject:  

Shouldn't this thread be in the "Truly Off-Topic" section?
The subject has nothing to do with Puppy announcements.

Respectfully.

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mikeslr


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:57    Post subject:  

@ stemsee,

To paraphrase Martin Luther King, "I have a dream that someday each person shall be judged by the quality of their character".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I47Y6VHc3Ms

For some of us The Dream remains alive. Dreams can not be realized, however, without effort. Power corrupts. Silence, Apathy and Indifference are all that are necessary for those with Power to maintain their control.
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s243a

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PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2019, 12:24    Post subject:  

mikeslr wrote:
@ stemsee,

To paraphrase Martin Luther King, "I have a dream that someday each person shall be judged by the quality of their character".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I47Y6VHc3Ms

For some of us The Dream remains alive. Dreams can not be realized, however, without effort. Power corrupts. Silence, Apathy and Indifference are all that are necessary for those with Power to maintain their control.


Isn't the quality of Richard Stallman's character in part what is in question here and I suppose in part the agency of the victims (alleged, proven or hypothetical depending on what we are talking about here) and the impact of any transgressions (alleged, proven or hypothetical depending on what we are talking about here)?

Perhaps the problem here is that we focus too much on Character and not enough on results. Whether or not Richard Stallman is a good or bad person, says nothing about his insights about free software. Maybe it's time to stop throwing stones because throwing stones doesn't make one more virtuous.

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rcrsn51


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2019, 12:39    Post subject:  

Quote:
Perhaps the problem here is that we focus too much on Character and not enough on results.

So if Jeffrey Epstein was a good money manager and got good results for his clients, we should ignore his "character flaws"?
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s243a

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PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2019, 13:03    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps the problem here is that we focus too much on Character and not enough on results.

So if Jeffrey Epstein was a good money manager and got good results for his clients, we should ignore his "character flaws"?


The difference here is that Jeffrey Epstein broke the law (in this case many laws) and so he is answerable for that. No one is alleging that Richard Stallman broke any laws and the court of public opinion is not a fair legal process. Giving the court of public opinion the power to decide who is entitled to make a living and have a platform will in the long run hurt the most marginalized in society. It wasn't long ago that a public figure could be justly fired for being gay.

If we don't stand up for the free speech of those that we disagree with then how long before none of us have free speech and without free speech how can we debate the merits of any law?

We also must consider the wider affects of any any extrajudicial law (e.g. the court of public opinion) that focuses overly on perceived (or real) moral failings which are common place. The elevation of the politics of morality creates many opportunities for blackmail and this will/has massively corrupt/ed our system. It isn't only about blackmail though, consider the character assignations by the Clinton's towards anyone who impugned the character of the Clinton's even when there was no alleged crime by the other actor/s. For instance consider the detrimental affects of the slut shaming of Monica Lewinsky and how she was a casualty of moral politics even though by some theories of power relations she could have been the victim (i.e. could she have consented given the power relations) and then there were accusations of rape by Bill (see Juanita Broaddrick) and alleged body counts all to protect the perceived moral integrity of the Clinton Machine. Even asking questions about an open murder investigation (see Seth Rich) was enough to be smeared as a conspiracy theorist by the Clinton machine.

The point here is to show the toxic affects of moral politics and how the unintended consequences can often be worse than any perceived moral good that one thinks that they will achieve by such politics.

As a final note I will leave everyone with the the words of Robert Reich:

Robert Reich: Public vs. Private Morality
65,836 views
•Published on May 15, 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TB73Lw1XtE

We must consider how the focus on private morality divides the population against challenging systemic power.

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rcrsn51


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2019, 14:11    Post subject:  

Quote:
Last week, Motherboard published the full email thread in which Stallman wrote that the "most plausible scenario" is that an underage victim who was forced to have sex with AI pioneer Marvin Minsky "presented herself to him as entirely willing." Stallman also argued about the definition of "rape" and whether the term applies to the victims.

I see this situation as quite simple. Stallman made a colossally stupid/insensitive comment and a bunch of people decided that they didn't want to work with him any more.
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musher0

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PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2019, 15:03    Post subject:  

A few thoughts about freedom of speech, if I may:

-- Free speech does not mean that you can say anything you please.
"No man is an island." We all live in a society: your words, my words,
or anybody's words can hurt.

-- "My freedom stops where yours begin" should go unchallenged as a
social principle.

-- "The Word Is a Loaded Gun", was the title of a book 30 years ago, but
it's true. To ride on that analogy, IMO, some people should be denied the
right to "bear words", at least in public, because they are not responsible
enough, demonstrate no respect for the truth, are clueless about fact-
checking, or are just plain fools.

-- Scandal sells more newspapers and gets more TV ratings. IMO, media
who make a living off it should lose their license.

-- Indeed, it's unfortunate that people in power (whoever they may be) tend
to think their words have more weight.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Stallman's resignation, viewed from the outside, it looks as though he
was seeking an occasion to retire, and disguised it as an emotional reaction
to something unrelated.

Something like the straw that broke the camel's back, or a fed-up-with-you-guys
reaction, more than a real comment on Eppstein.

Also, both Eppstein and Stallman are Jewish names, yes? I understand that there is
no age of consent per se in Israel or it is younger? (I picked that up in an Israeli movie
I once saw at a cine-club.) I'm not condoning anything here, I'm not excusing sexaholics
or pedophiles, those are conditions to be dealt with, legally, if not medically. I'm just
saying that there may be a cultural factor at play.

And please, pointing out a cultural difference in a different country does not constitute
racism. It's something one notices, period.

I'm going with foxpup's hunch that there is more than meets the eye here. We'll
probably never know the full story.

Respectfully.

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musher0

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PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2019, 20:08    Post subject:  

Fact-check:

Add'l info: age of consent in Israel is 16.
Q.v. https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/israel
So my cultural explanation fails.

The lowest age of consent on that map is 13, in Japan.
Eppstein was definitely in the wrong country.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Correct title of the book mentioned in my previous post:
Quote:
Language - The Loaded Weapon: The Use and Abuse of Language Today
by Dwight Bolinger
...
Paperback, 1st edition, 214 pages
Published 1980 by Longman Publishing Group
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1650557.Language_The_Loaded_Weapon
Sorry about that.

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rcrsn51


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:24    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:
The lowest age of consent on that map is 13, in Japan.
Eppstein was definitely in the wrong country

Now you are suggesting that a young girl caught in sex trade can "give consent" provided that she is "legal" age?

This is precisely the attitude that got Stallman fired.
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