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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Why no Arch Linux-based Puppy? (Solved)
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jplt3


Joined: 08 Apr 2019
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2019, 06:05    Post subject:  Why no Arch Linux-based Puppy? (Solved)  

Hello all,

why there is no popular Puppy based on Archlinux ?

I have not enough skill to build one , if is it possible ?

Last edited by jplt3 on Fri 04 Oct 2019, 10:42; edited 1 time in total
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 2209

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2019, 08:32    Post subject: Re: Archlinux  

jplt3 wrote:
Hello all,

why there is no popular puupy based on archlinux ?

I have not enough skill to build one , if is it possible ?


Woof-CE dropped support for Arch linux but there are older pups:

http://wikka.puppylinux.com/Archpup
http://wikka.puppylinux.com/AlphaOS
http://alphaos.tuxfamily.org/
http://alphaos.tuxfamily.org/forum/

There is also at least one 64bit version. See alphaOS
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=92727

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mikeslr


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2019, 11:29    Post subject:  

ArchLInux is a rolling release. Its structure, package manager and repositories are designed around that concept. Puppies are not and Woof, the tool to create Puppies, isn't designed to create a rolling release. I don't recall with certainty, but have a vague recollection that the ArchPups were not able to build in rolling release capability.

Beyond the capability of performing upgrades to a running operating system, I am unaware of any advantage ArchLinux offers that debian, slackware or Ubuntu lack. It is possible to woof a 'bare-bones' Puppy based on any of those. And unlike ArchLinux which expects of its Users a certain amount of familiarity with Linux, Puppies are intended to be 'newie friendly'.

As a result of Puppy's modular nature, kernel upgrades can in fact be accomplished from running Puppy. I suspect the difficulty with doing an entire upgrade involves, at least, glibc libraries. glibc libraries are 'foundations' used by applications. Unlike some foundations, Puppies --and as far as I know, every other specific Linux VERSION of an operating-- can only use one version of glibc at a time. Upgrading glibc can break every application which depended on the older version. Even so, it is possible to perform a glibc upgrade in Puppies, but the steps to do so must be done in a particular order, and not all builtin applications may survive such upgrade.

The primary need for a glibc upgrade is to maintain the security of web-browsers --the major vector for malware-- by keeping them up to date. Puppy Devs have solved the dilemma by reconstructing web-browsers to contain and use their own glibc libraries. Other 'web-centric' applications, such as openssl, apparently do not require specific glibc libraries. Other types of applications --such as Office Suites, and Graphic and Media creators-- can either function under any Puppy or only require updating if you need their latest 'bells & whistles'.

You may know that Slitaz is also a rolling release. mistfire has developed a technique for creating a TazPuppy. As I understand it, what mistfire did was to take advantage of Puppy's (and, I think, Slitaz's) modular nature to use Slitaz's kernel and drivers+firmware on the back-end and Puppy Applications --including its ability to preserve changes in a SaveFile-- on the front end. Tazpup, thus, has both Slitaz's and Puppy's strengths. Moreover, if I recall correctly, Tazpup can utilize applications from both Puppies and Slitaz's repositories. To a large extent I believe the development of Tazpup by mistfire was made possible by her expertise in the package management systems of many distributions and, of course, her in depth knowledge of how Puppies are structured and function.

Predating Tazpup, the developers of Archpups did not employ --and perhaps were unaware of even the possibility offered by-- the technique mistfire developed.

In short, while it is certainly possible to create a modern Archpup or Puppy-like operating system based on Arch Linux, it is not a project likely to be undertaken by someone lacking both expertise and a strong conviction that an Archpup will offer some advantage beyond incorporating ArchLinux's rolling release capability.
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jplt3


Joined: 08 Apr 2019
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2019, 10:42    Post subject:  

Thansk mikeslr for your explanation.
It's quiet obvious that puppy is not built to the way that a rooling release distribution work.
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CockeRed

Joined: 07 Oct 2019
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2019, 15:59    Post subject:  

Hello!
There is a project PuppyRus-A (PRA), Arch+Puppy, but it is only in Russian. And he is largely Arch Linux, in a smaller Puppy Linux, but with connecting and disconnecting packages and the ability to create a save file.
Sorry, this post is using translate.google.com
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rockedge


Joined: 11 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2019, 18:00    Post subject:  

Quote:
NEW MULTI-DISTRO WeeDog Release announcement. Currently builds flavours: void, ubuntu, debian, devuan (Arch Linux flavour under development)


WeeDog is experimental but you might find it interesting

join the discussion here -> http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=116212
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5668
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2019, 19:10    Post subject:  

TBH, there's always a number in any 'community', of course.....but I honestly believe that the great majority of Puppians (silent, or otherwise) are not that bothered about constantly having the very newest, bleeding-edge versions of everything.

'Bleeding edge' usually means a greater than normal risk of bugs in the build. I believe most of our community is happy to use fairly modern, stable software, that will do whatever they need without issues......

Given that most Puppians run pretty old machines, which by their very nature often have in-built hardware limitations, a rolling release honestly doesn't make much sense in the Puppy context......despite that it would, I guess, be an interesting experiment for its own sake.

(*shrug*)

Just my two-penn'orth, FWIW.


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rufwoof


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2019, 20:46    Post subject:  

Older versions of office programs etc. often work just as well as the latest versions. Such that you can stick with a if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it practice. Primarily however its browsers that drive the need for hardware/OS upgrades.

So you could run with a latest regularly updated OS and browser at the main level, but with static Puppy within a virtual environment within that. At the risk of the regularly updated main system potentially seeing intended upgrades actually causing outages (bugs).

More optimally I guess stick with a lean latest static main system for stability, run a static sub-system within that for consistency/stability of regular programs (Puppy), and a separate regularly updated sub-system/OS for the browser - in which case something like Arch or Void might be reasonable choices for that.

Or in Mike's (W) case perhaps one pup per core Smile

Makes you wonder what we'll be using devices for when 1024 cores, as good as unlimited ram/storage and 1TB/sec download speeds are commonplace!
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Oct 2019, 18:18    Post subject:  

rockedge wrote:
Quote:
NEW MULTI-DISTRO WeeDog Release announcement. Currently builds flavours: void, ubuntu, debian, devuan (Arch Linux flavour under development)


WeeDog is experimental but you might find it interesting

join the discussion here -> http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=116212


Yes, I had forgotten to add the Arch Linux flavour for WeeDog. That can certainly be done. I think I'll have a go at that in the coming weeks. Of course WeeDog's Void Linux flavour is itself (since being built up using Void Linux) a rolling release and seems the creator of Void Linux may have been an Arch user at sometime, and inherited some ideas from there maybe, but I'm not sure.

Probably my biggest computer-related problem at the moment is that I have of ton of things I want to try with WeeDog now that the core build scripts are proving pretty stable, so I'm temporarily not focussing enough to do anything. But good to have a wee rest so mind relaxed and more likely to be focused again thereafter. Also the weather is good here now so I'm out and about more than at computer table... Having said that, being generally unfamiliar with Arch, and following the above posts, I am right now about to boot Arch and take a closer look since it already was on the back of my mind that I wanted to complete that 'place-holder' I already had for Arch option in build_firstrib_rootfs script. The build_weedog_initramfs scripts should hopefully work fine to produce an Arch frugal install anyway (indeed someone wanting that could simply download or extract any Arch root filesystem and then use that wih build_weedog_initramfs to create a WeeDog initramfs controlled Arch (though I haven't tried that with Arch yet to be sure there is nothing extra required).

Whether I complete FirstRib/WeeDog Arch shortly depends both on whether I run into problems with it and on whether there is any demand for a WeeDog Arch of course - this thread on the otherhand is a request for a Puppy Arch and WeeDog is not Puppy, but yes, WeeDog provides its own independent frugal install save persistence, rollback, copy2ram mechanisms.

In the same way it wouldn't be accurate to call the Void flavour of WeeDog, "Void Linux", since WeeDog's save/changes/copy2ram and rollback facilities have nothing to do with Void Linux, WeeDog Arch won't be official Arch per se (and all WeeDog facilities work the same no matter the WeeDog distro flavour). However, aside from these flexible WeeDog facilities (and efficient RAM-usage etc), a user won't be able to tell the difference from running Arch from an official Arch install because the internals (native package manager and init scripts and init scripts etc) remain untouched (unless the simple default WeeDog rc.sysinit is used and not replaced by official Arch system config files via pacman use).

Anyway, at least rockedge's comment has reminded me to have a look at it just now.

wiak

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Last edited by wiak on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 06:18; edited 2 times in total
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rufwoof


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Oct 2019, 20:59    Post subject:  

wiak wrote:
seems the creator of Void Linux may have been an Arch user at sometime, and inherited some ideas from there maybe, but I'm not sure

Jaun who 'founded' the xbps package management element was a NetBSD executive ... so voidlinux also reflect elements from the BSD side as well. My voidlinux LAN device name of wlp2s0 for instance is a very BSD slice'ish type naming convention.

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mistfire

Joined: 04 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct 2019, 17:01    Post subject:  

mikeslr wrote:
ArchLInux is a rolling release. Its structure, package manager and repositories are designed around that concept. Puppies are not and Woof, the tool to create Puppies, isn't designed to create a rolling release. I don't recall with certainty, but have a vague recollection that the ArchPups were not able to build in rolling release capability.

Beyond the capability of performing upgrades to a running operating system, I am unaware of any advantage ArchLinux offers that debian, slackware or Ubuntu lack. It is possible to woof a 'bare-bones' Puppy based on any of those. And unlike ArchLinux which expects of its Users a certain amount of familiarity with Linux, Puppies are intended to be 'newie friendly'.

As a result of Puppy's modular nature, kernel upgrades can in fact be accomplished from running Puppy. I suspect the difficulty with doing an entire upgrade involves, at least, glibc libraries. glibc libraries are 'foundations' used by applications. Unlike some foundations, Puppies --and as far as I know, every other specific Linux VERSION of an operating-- can only use one version of glibc at a time. Upgrading glibc can break every application which depended on the older version. Even so, it is possible to perform a glibc upgrade in Puppies, but the steps to do so must be done in a particular order, and not all builtin applications may survive such upgrade.

The primary need for a glibc upgrade is to maintain the security of web-browsers --the major vector for malware-- by keeping them up to date. Puppy Devs have solved the dilemma by reconstructing web-browsers to contain and use their own glibc libraries. Other 'web-centric' applications, such as openssl, apparently do not require specific glibc libraries. Other types of applications --such as Office Suites, and Graphic and Media creators-- can either function under any Puppy or only require updating if you need their latest 'bells & whistles'.

You may know that Slitaz is also a rolling release. mistfire has developed a technique for creating a TazPuppy. As I understand it, what mistfire did was to take advantage of Puppy's (and, I think, Slitaz's) modular nature to use Slitaz's kernel and drivers+firmware on the back-end and Puppy Applications --including its ability to preserve changes in a SaveFile-- on the front end. Tazpup, thus, has both Slitaz's and Puppy's strengths. Moreover, if I recall correctly, Tazpup can utilize applications from both Puppies and Slitaz's repositories. To a large extent I believe the development of Tazpup by mistfire was made possible by her expertise in the package management systems of many distributions and, of course, her in depth knowledge of how Puppies are structured and function.

Predating Tazpup, the developers of Archpups did not employ --and perhaps were unaware of even the possibility offered by-- the technique mistfire developed.

In short, while it is certainly possible to create a modern Archpup or Puppy-like operating system based on Arch Linux, it is not a project likely to be undertaken by someone lacking both expertise and a strong conviction that an Archpup will offer some advantage beyond incorporating ArchLinux's rolling release capability.


Some clarifications:
* TazPuppy was using Puppy's kernel not Slitaz. It was running Slitaz on Top and Puppy was working under the hood. Yes TazPuppy can work also as rolling release too (optional) but it requires a large save file or create a save folder stored on a partition with large free space.

Building archpup was possible using TazPuppy approach (molding a prebuilt filesystem image from live cd). However arch was using systemd. It needs a workaround to run rc.sysinit script on systemd then call arch init scripts afterwards.
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mistfire

Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 1284
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct 2019, 19:03    Post subject:  

However predefined filesystem manipulation has caveats

1. Only its own package manager is used. It requires some modifications on package manager to accept pet packages

2. Startup and shutdown sequences requires modifications for implementing pupmodes
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3504
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sun 08 Dec 2019, 19:55    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello!
if I remember rught, when I tried several years ago, I could get a bootable Puppy from Arch binaries. But its package manager was unusable, and it wouldnt accept installing anything... And it wouldnt install Arch packages, due to a key system, connected to the rolling release method...

Worse, many major distros are going systemd.... Crying or Very sad

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tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Dec 2019, 20:10    Post subject:  

Hi CockeRed, welcome to the forum! Very Happy
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2019, 01:42    Post subject:  

I think that the problem that puppy has with rolling releases is not a good mechanism for updating installed packages. I think that Scotmann is working on this with Pkg. For instance see:

"Updating builtin or system packages"
https://gitlab.com/sc0ttj/Pkg/issues/86

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