Why no Arch Linux-based Puppy? (Solved)

[rockedge]

my Puppy's do EVERYTHING a "proper" OS does. Simple as that. I learned to program on toggle switches and control lights in HEX and OCTAL in assembly code. I don't need eye candy and very simple GUI's do the trick fast, direct and focused. Plus developing system code and blowing up a system is NULL problem-O....swap in the backed up save folder/file and back in the race.....

I'm all about end results, continuous error free operation and how much dancing around I have to do to get those.

WeeDog64-Arch or Void are not paired down to optimal size yet. I use Windows 10 once a year to do taxes and occasionally to load my iPod Nano and Touch with music. I have 2 beautiful machines standing idle that run monster OS's but I don't need them other than start them up to test server code and configurations....sometimes I change the wallpaper.

P.S. I installed Puppy Bionic64-CE built with woof-CE on those 2 machines for a dual boot option....

[musher0]

Hi all.

For the record, in case you missed it, at the beginning of February, peebee
made an alpha ArchPup32 available, starting here (and following pages).

Worth trying out, IMO.

BFN.

[wiak]

if your older disk-based machine supports SD cards, run puppy off an SD. SD gives performance that's pretty close to an SSD-- much faster than a hard drive or flash drive.

Actually, it was myself who added SD card support to Porteus boot for the DebianDogs (so for changes=Exit: methods used by BionicDog, StretchDog, BusterDog...). That was years ago and involved modifying several of the other Dog system scripts to make it all work. So you are preaching to the believer - there are four of us in my family, and the two children both use 2008 HP 2530 Elitebooks that came with harddrives missing. So for these several years now they are booted and run from (cost < $10) SD cards (which is why I originally did that particular development work for saintless/fredx181's DebianDogs).

Originally, I had XenialDog64 installed on their SD cards, then I upgraded them to BionicDog64, and now they have my (what you say is rather large) WeeDog Arch64 running from the SD. They are just 16GB SD cards, but WeeDog Arch64 (biggest version) only needs 2.4GB of that.

WeeDog, by the way, can build systems as small as the plugin developer wants - right down to a tiny system that uses busybox alone (except plus a package manager of some sort) - Void Linux package manager is particularly useful because it has been designed as a standalone program (that doesn't require a surrounding Void Linux system), so 'really' tiny systems can be built using WeeDog/FirstRib build system, particularly when using Void Linux package manager. And WeeDog initrd provides (consistently for any and all WeeDog builds) all the frugal install facilities users might want such as copy2ram and persistence either permanent or in RAM and so on. Whilst official Arch can be downloaded as a live CD, using that does not provide save persistence (though there are attempts) or the Puppy-like (aufs or overlayfs) frugal install experience us Puppy users have come to love. WeeDog does.

But you seem to have not understood how WeeDog/FirstRib works. It is a build script system, and not an iso. The plugin used during the build determines what packages are installed so user can decide what they want everytime they build. I provide a pretty full-featured plugin, so that users can just use that if they wish, but generally I expect they will remove whatever they don't want from the packages pacman list and substitute in what they do want. Hence it took me ten minutes to start with full plugin, trim it down by removing LibreOffice and so on, and then undertake new auto-build such that that first attempt came out at around 890MB. Easy to make it what you like - depending on how small Arch base can go. Arch is proving to be a great underlying system (I hadn't used it before) but Void Linux is my absolute favourite because of its standalone package manager design.

I have learned, however, to appreciate (unlike several on this forum) the elegance/convenience/use-simplicity of systemd through setting up my WeeDog Arch system, but runit from Void gives it a good run for the money too (SysVinit, which I have used for decades, is awful comparatively in terms of being a jungle shell-scripting mess of an init system). If you don't want systemd, I'd advise using runit (NOT old SysVinit!). But core WeeDog FirstRib builds can use either SysVinit, runit, or systemd, or whatever...; what is used in practice tends to be whatever the upstream system is primarily designed for. But the most basic FIrstRib build starts with option to use busybox mini-SysVinit init applet, though once main rootfs is mounted, whatever init is used in that is used by default (but the FirstRib build plugin developer can change that).

However, you don't need to be a developer to use WeeDog. It is designed, for newbies or people who just want a system that works, with 'larger' plugin (currently for Arch, but similar coming for Void, Debian, Ubuntu and Devuan options) to come pre-configured to work out-of-the-box (including wifi connection capability, auto-login as root, and with seamless ability to switch login to normal user when desired). You don't need to understand any WeeDog scripts or its plugins to use it at all. And it comes as a simple short shell script, which 'auto-builds' the whole system in usually less than 30 minutes (so easier to install than from a static iso - WeeDog always builds the rolling release latest!) - ready to boot and connect via ethernet or wifi for productive work (without countless hours hacking to minimise it or install most larger apps - it has a gui package manager that is as good as the upstream repo/package-manager system provides...).

wiak

[rockedge]

Hello musher0!

at the beginning of February, peebee made an alpha ArchPup32 available

I have 4 versions of peebee's ArchPup32 on 2 drives and they work okay.
WeeDog is different in that it uses the pacman file manager, systemd and is a rolling release. There are some other differences as well.

I ran into some slight problems installing packages on ArchPup32 but I haven't really spent a whole lot of time running it yet

[johnywhy]

Mike wrote:

to me, the whole point of running a very small OS on a powertful machine with plenty of resources means I have virtually all those resources for my use.....not for the OS to commandeer. Which Puppy will never do anyway.

We don't disagree! I'd rather run a lightweight OS, whether on a powerful machine or an old machine. I reject the propaganda that "unused RAM is wasted RAM."


rockedge wrote:

I don't need eye candy and very simple GUI's do the trick fast, direct and focused.

i don't consider xfce eye-candy, just gives me the functionality and convenience i want. it's not all blingy like Compiz or something. It's the most lightweight full-featured desktop. Very clean. Imo, xfce should be the default desktop on puppy linux, not that dreadful jwm.

I'm a puppy imposter -- Was never trying to build puppies, just looking for the same ease-of-use and wide-selection of compatible software of a commercial OS without the cost and bloat. Preferably something i could tune-up and remaster for friends. For me, remastering puppy was always a struggle.

Plus developing system code and blowing up a system is NULL problem-O....swap in the backed up save folder/file and back in the race.....

Yes, love that about puppy.

my Puppy's do EVERYTHING a "proper" OS does. Simple as that.... I use Windows 10 once a year to do taxes and occasionally to load my iPod Nano and Touch with music.

No comment

I learned to program on toggle switches and control lights in HEX and OCTAL in assembly code.

i am a programmer, but can't boast about assembly code. Guys like you put me to shame.


wiak wrote:

it was myself who added SD card support to Porteus boot for the DebianDogs

fantastic! Once i discovered i could boot an SD, i couldn't understand why (it seemed) puppy was flash-drive-centric.

you seem to have not understood how WeeDog/FirstRib works. It is a build script system, and not an iso.

So it's sort of a mashup between puppy and any linux you want? Doesn't WoofCE do something like that? Will it support non-root users if the seed distro does? Is it compatible with mainline repos if the seed distro is? Can it make an ISO, or just a live install? Sorry i haven't tried it. Sounds like WeeDog isn't going to be as easy to get up and running as arch, tho.

runit from Void gives it a good run for the money too (SysVinit, which I have used for decades, is awful comparatively in terms of being a jungle shell-scripting mess of an init system) If you don't want systemd, I'd advise using runit (NOT old SysVinit!).

Thx for that! The only issue i have with systemd is that it seems to gobble up a lot of RAM and stays resident in memory throughout the session. I don't have any philosophical issue with it. I just want an OS which leaves as little as possible running in RAM. How's runit in that regard? Thx for the warning about SysVinit, i'm no fan of software messes. If runit is much lighter on RAM than systemd, it would be cool to run arch on runit.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Runit

[johnywhy]

If you're curious about how small arch can go, their netboot might be of interest. Iirc, you can get pretty specific about what to include-

Netboot images are small (<1MB) images that can be used to download the latest Arch Linux release on the fly upon system boot. It is unnecessary to update the netboot image, the newest release will be available automatically. Netboot uses customized iPXE builds. The Linux kernel, initramfs and squashfs files for the live system are downloaded from an Arch Linux mirror.
https://www.archlinux.org/releng/netboot/

i believe there's also a way to script an arch install, so you just distribute the script and users run the script (with netboot, maybe). I'm pretty sure it's more than just a list of applications, but i could be wrong.

Might be of interest:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/archiso
https://github.com/Earnestly/pkgbuilds
https://gist.github.com/satreix/c01fd1cb5168e539404b
https://github.com/helmuthdu/aui
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevang ... ript-easy/

[wiak]

So it's sort of a mashup between puppy and any linux you want? Is it compatible with mainline repos if the seed distro is?

No, it has nothing to do with puppy aside from the fact I have been murga forum member and used Puppy and later the DebianDogs for a long time, so designed WeeDog behaviour for the facilities I was used to having. Therefore, it does have frugal install copy2ram/save-persistence facilities like Puppy and the Dogs. But uses no Puppy or Dog code at all to do so. But there are other distros that have such facilities too (e.g. AntiX, Slax, Porteus. and more... But WeeDog uses no code from them either. In fact I think these all use EDIT: aufs for their layering facilities; WeeDog uses kernel's official overlay filesystem).

Will it support non-root users if the seed distro does?

Of course. Aside from the extra frugal install save-persistence/ability-to-run-wholly-in-ram/overlayfs-sfs-facilities, WeeDog Arch, for example, is fully Arch Linux compatible. Same with WeeDogLinux Void flavour, and WeeDogLinux Debian, Ubuntu, or Devuan; these are fully compatible with their upstream repo distribution. It is fully compatible with the upstream repo distribution (hence full multi-user system) and uses the upstream repo's official package manager.

In that sense it is a bit like the DebianDogs, but it doesn't use or copy DebianDog aufs code for its operation either. It is fully independent of Puppy and the DebianDogs as are the build scripts that create it, which have no connection or similarity to woof-CE whatsoever. By default the current WeeDogLinux Arch64 autoboots as root user to Openbox/tint2 desktop, but has menu item to quickly switch user (no reboot required) to normal user weedog with own openbox/tint2 window session, but you can create as many users as you like of course. Moreover you can design your own plugin for the build system (but only if you wish) to use any window manager/packages you like, down to busybox only if that's all you want...

Sounds like WeeDog isn't going to be as easy to get up and running as arch, tho.

To install on a system that has grub bootloader available all you need to build WeeDogLinux Arch64 is to run one single build script using the following command from the empty directory you want to boot it from. Then drink a coffee or two whilst it builds ready for use... (usually takes around 20 minutes to build depending on your broadband speed - but unlike an iso, nothing else needs to be done after, aside from setting up grub menu):

Code: Select all

./make00arch_amd64-latest.sh pause

Then you simply configure your grub bootloader to boot it. Finished.

The completed WeeDogLinux Arch isn't so much 'like' Arch, it is Arch (but with addition of special WeeDog system utilities/facilities and specially customised desktop), but running via a special WeeDog independent initramfs that allows Arch to be in a frugal install with overlays such as sfs files and changes in RAM, copy-to-RAM or elsewhere (like Puppy/DebianDogs, changes then get seamlessly merged in on every boot, which murga forum users have found is a very flexible/advantageous way to run a distro). Arch generally only otherwise comes as a full install distro, which isn't what I want.

wiak

[tallboy]

Primarily however its browsers that drive the need for hardware/OS upgrades.

It was the only reason for having to migrate from my lovely Lucid, or Stardustpup, or .., or ...
Well, not entirely true, new developments in other programs also require new Puppys, but not all are improvements.

[peebee]

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 71#1059271

118912e80f9c19ad762755eadea095db Arch32Pup-20.05+0.iso

6c8482f964bb056f5b8e7a9f3ac5bcea Arch64Pup-20.05+0.iso