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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 04:55    Post subject:  

@Moose On The Loose

can you elaborate, i thought that when I load the sfs file it becomes part of the system. another question, can I make more than one .2sf file and make them load together. I am also interested int he option of how to extract the apps then merge them in to sfs categories, hope you can help with that.

Thanks
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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 05:04    Post subject:  

Quote:

I put a lot of time and effort into creating the Slacko 5.7.2CE remaster. So you might say I have an irrational attachment to it. I’ll probably keep booting into it from time to time as long as it will provide adequate access to internet sites. But as I said on its Thread, if you are starting from scratch, dpup-stretch is a better choice.


this is exactly what I did with xenilla 7.5, so I am not ready to give it away

Quote:

Now that your system is again functional, I do suggest you give consideration to the advice you’ve received about how to keep your SaveFile small. The three most effective ways to do that are (1) turn off the Automatic Save; (2) do not save documents/datafiles anywhere in root, such as in root/my-documents; and (3) if you are not using one of the portable web-browsers, move its cache storage location out of /root. Ask if you need help in how to accomplish these.


I do understand 1 and 2 but not 3. my idea about portable is like windows, I download and unpack it and everything work within the folder that contain the unpacked file. However when I unpack one of the apps it doesn't seem to be the case, I searched you tube but could no find any video concerning that matter, please let me know if you know any detailed tutorial with screenshots or youtube video.
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5827
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 11:59    Post subject:  

mikeslr wrote:
Now that your system is again functional, I do suggest you give consideration to the advice you’ve received about how to keep your SaveFile small. The three most effective ways to do that are (1) turn off the Automatic Save; (2) do not save documents/datafiles anywhere in root, such as in root/my-documents; and (3) if you are not using one of the portable web-browsers, move its cache storage location out of /root. Ask if you need help in how to accomplish these.


Mm-hm. Personal data, to my mind, is best kept on a different partition. If possible, keep it on a separate drive. Create folder/directories such as 'my-documents', 'Downloads', 'Pictures', 'Music', 'Videos', etc, save your stuff to those, then sym-link those directories into /root for easier access. A sym-link occupies no space at all.....perhaps 4 bytes.

Portable USB 3.0 hard drives (or large-capacity USB 3.0 flash drives) are ideal for this. The advantage is that if your Puppy goes tits-up, then your personal data remains safe.

Mike's point about WINE is also valid. WINE itself is quite small; it's all the Windows stuff you run with it that quickly eats up space. Mike raised this point, I put my considering cap on, had a think about it, and threw together a script that 'externalizes' the parts of WINE that get large, and then sym-links them back into their original locations.

Mike tells me it works quite well....

Personally, I run an entire WINE 'install' from a large external data partition, and share it between around a dozen Puppies. I do this with a lot of stuff, shared throughout the kennels. There's also a plethora of 'portable' browsers/browser install scripts that have been put together this last 18 months or so; again, these run from completely outside the save-file/folder, together with self-contained profiles.

Lots of different things you can do to stop this from happening....


Mike. Wink

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Moose On The Loose


Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 862

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 12:04    Post subject:  

memo wrote:
@Moose On The Loose

can you elaborate, i thought that when I load the sfs file it becomes part of the system. another question, can I make more than one .2sf file and make them load together. I am also interested int he option of how to extract the apps then merge them in to sfs categories, hope you can help with that.

Thanks


If you tell the system to load an additional SFS, it "loads" it but not into your save file. It just becomes part of the file system as another layer. Your personal settings is a layer. The base SFS of the system is a layer. Imagine it like clear sheets of something stacked one on top of the other. If something is written on one of the lower layers, you can see it through the others. When you make a change to something, you write onto the top layer so you can't see through to the lower layers.

The tool for making your own squash file system is mksquashfe
You make a (Contents) directory and put the stuff you want in there.
Contents/usr/bin/ <---- Will appear as more /usr/bin
Contents/usr/bin/MyThing <--- Will end up in /usr/bin
Contents/root/Bananas <-- will appear in the root directory
Code:

mksquashfs Contents Something.sfs


To help gather up the stuff you want, remember there is a "pet2tgz"
I suggest you experiment with a harmless text file or something and then start gathering the bits you want in your system.
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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 16:32    Post subject:  

I understand that and I already keep my videos and documents away from the root directory. Thanks
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3253
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 16:54    Post subject:  

memo wrote:
I understand that and I already keep my videos and documents away from the root directory. Thanks

Not just the root directory, anywhere under /
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3621
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 18:34    Post subject:  

"Not just the root directory, anywhere under /"

Each time you boot into a Frugal Puppy it creates in Random Access Memory a file-system which looks something like this*. https://nepalisupport.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/linux-file-system-hierarchy/. By / rufwoof is referring to the top folder named root; not the second level folder of the same name. If you browse to the second level root you'll see in its left corner the symbol ~. Don't ask me why those who were smart enough to create the file system weren't smart enough to develop unique names; or why the phrase 'hanging from root' only makes sense if you visualize an upside-down tree.

Puppies include a module which enables the "layering" Moose on the loose mentioned. That layering take place in RAM. The changes you make while running a Puppy initially only exist in RAM and constitute the Top Layer. When you execute a Save it writes those changes to your SaveFile or SaveFolder. The module which does this writes the changes which have been made to any file or folder "hanging" from the top level root (/) with two exceptions: (1) is anything which has been written to the /tmp folder; (2) is anything which has been written directly to the storage space on a disk/partition or CD/DVD.

Browse into the /mnt folder. It is actually a short-cut to memory locations under initrd. But I find it easier to visualize it as a location itself. You'll see something like the attached screenshot. Almost all the folders which 'hang' from /mnt are storage media. The one with the 'green' dot and the name 'home' is the link to your home partition --the one on which your SaveFile/Folder is located. The 'green ' dot reflects that it is mounted. Click that folder and you'll see the contents of that partition. Plug in a USB-Key, mount it, browse to /mnt again and you'll see a folder which is a link to the contents of the USB-Key.

So an easier way to describe what executing a Save does is that it writes to the SaveFile/Folder whatever changes have been made in RAM except those changes which were made to files/folders hanging from /tmp or /mnt.

Some versions of LInux also use the /media folder the way Puppies use the /mnt folder.

* Because Puppies run as Root, while most Linuxes don't, Puppies by default do not have a /home folder. Puppies second level /root folder (~) serves the purpose of storing customizations, setting and contains other folders which can --but shouldn't be-- used for storing the data other Linuxes would place in the /home folder. Because of the difficulty of running Google-Chrome as Root, the Google-Chrome pets/sfses and perhaps some newer Puppies have added a /home folder.

Your question about "3". Although Puppies portable web-browsers can be run from anywhere, they are designed to install to /opt. I should have mentioned, I always move them from /opt to /mnt/home. The original publishers, mozilla and palemoon, expect their products to be installed into Linux systems where the home folder is on storage. Profiles (settings, addons, bookmarks) and files cached from the web under those Linuxes will be written to storage media. But in Puppies, they will be written to (~) root, occupying RAM and when a Save is executed, taking up space in the SaveFile. During an hour of surfing, you can accumulate hundreds of mbs of cached files.

a Portable is started not by calling its application's binary(executable) but by calling a bash script. The bash script --among other things-- tells Puppy not only to start the application, but also to store the application's profile and web-cache in the portable's folder.

Among those other things is that it tells Puppy when using this application first look for dependencies in the application's folder. The dependencies included in the application's folder are those which, if installed to the layered file system, would either break other applications or require an almost entire system re-write -- resulting in a operating system as resource-demanding as those operating systems for which mozilla thought it was publishing for.

For example palemoon version 27 was published roughly a year ago for operating systems perhaps then no older than 2 or 3 years. Thanks to Walter dnes and watchdog, it can be run in Puppies created 10 years ago or maybe even older.
Screenshot.png
 Description   Showing contents of the mnt folder: links to storage
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Screenshot.png


Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 19 Nov 2019, 19:21; edited 1 time in total
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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 18:50    Post subject:  

is /mnt/home a good location then ?
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3621
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 19:24    Post subject:  

memo, you posted while I was typing. Yes /mnt/home is a good location. See my post just above. So is a USB-Stick.

Unintentionally edited. The following was supposed to be a replay to memo's response next following.

There are other ways, and some may be more flexible. But the quickest way to make certain data never gets written to your SaveFile/folder is:

Open a file-manager window to your home partition (/mnt/home) -- click it's desktop drive icon.
Open a file-manager window to ~root --the desktop icon at the top-left corner sometimes named "files" is a short-cut on most newly installed Puppies.

Left-Press, Hold then drag the my-documents folder from ~root on to the /mnt/home Window. From the popup menu select Move

Left-Press, Hold then drag the my-documents folder back to ~root. Select Link(relative) from the popup menu. Remember to execute a Save.

Almost all applications will initially offer to write datafiles to /my-documents and will offer to 'look in' my-documents when you want to open a document. But the my-documents folder will --as with other LInuxes-- now be on storage. Applications are merely following the symbolic link (short-cut) in RAM to the storage media.

You can, of course, create sub-folders in /my-documents to keep your datafiles organized.

Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 19 Nov 2019, 20:53; edited 2 times in total
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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 19:28    Post subject:  

mikeslr wrote:
memo, you posted while I was typing. Yes /mnt/home is a good location. See my post just above. So is a USB-Stick.


yes I have read it, thanks Smile
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3253
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 20:50    Post subject:  

mikeslr wrote:
"Not just the root directory, anywhere under /"

Each time you boot into a Frugal Puppy it creates in Random Access Memory a file-system which looks something like this*. https://nepalisupport.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/linux-file-system-hierarchy/. By / rufwoof is referring to the top folder named root; not the second level folder of the same name. If you browse to the second level root you'll see in its left corner the symbol ~. Don't ask me why those who were smart enough to create the file system weren't smart enough to develop unique names; or why the phrase 'hanging from root' only makes sense if you visualize an upside-down tree.

Puppies include a module which enables the "layering" Moose on the loose mentioned. That layering take place in RAM. The changes you make while running a Puppy initially only exist in RAM and constitute the Top Layer. When you execute a Save it writes those changes to your SaveFile or SaveFolder. The module which does this writes the changes which have been made to any file or folder "hanging" from the top level root (/) with two exceptions: (1) is anything which has been written to the /tmp folder; (2) is anything which has been written directly to the storage space on a disk/partition or CD/DVD.

Browse into the /mnt folder. It is actually a short-cut to memory locations under initrd. But I find it easier to visualize it as a location itself. You'll see something like the attached screenshot. Almost all the folders which 'hang' from /mnt are storage media. The one with the 'green' dot and the name 'home' is the link to your home partition --the one on which your SaveFile/Folder is located. The 'green ' dot reflects that it is mounted. Click that folder and you'll see the contents of that partition. Plug in a USB-Key, mount it, browse to /mnt again and you'll see a folder which is a link to the contents of the USB-Key.

So an easier way to describe what executing a Save does is that it writes to the SaveFile/Folder whatever changes have been made in RAM except those changes which were made to files/folders hanging from /tmp or /mnt.

Some versions of LInux also use the /media folder the way Puppies use the /mnt folder.

* Because Puppies run as Root, while most Linuxes don't, Puppies by default do not have a /home folder. Puppies second level /root folder (~) serves the purpose of storing customizations, setting and contains other folders which can --but shouldn't be-- used for storing the data other Linuxes would place in the /home folder. Because of the difficulty of running Google-Chrome as Root, the Google-Chrome pets/sfses and perhaps some newer Puppies have added a /home folder.

Your question about "3". Although Puppies portable web-browsers can be run from anywhere, they are designed to install to /opt. I should have mentioned, I always move them from /opt to /mnt/home. The original publishers, mozilla and palemoon, expect their products to be installed into Linux systems where the home folder is on storage. Profiles (settings, addons, bookmarks) and files cached from the web under those Linuxes will be written to storage media. But in Puppies, they will be written to (~) root, occupying RAM and when a Save is executed, taking up space in the SaveFile. During an hour of surfing, you can accumulate hundreds of mbs of cached files.

a Portable is started not by calling its application's binary(executable) but by calling a bash script. The bash script --among other things-- tells Puppy not only to start the application, but also to store the application's profile and web-cache in the portable's folder.

Among those other things is that it tells Puppy when using this application first look for dependencies in the application's folder. The dependencies included in the application's folder are those which, if installed to the layered file system, would either break other applications or require an almost entire system re-write -- resulting in a operating system as resource-demanding as those operating systems for which mozilla thought it was publishing for.

For example palemoon version 27 was published roughly a year ago for operating systems perhaps then no older than 2 or 3 years. Thanks to Walter dnes and watchdog, it can be run in Puppies created 10 years ago or maybe even older.

Note the following:
1. Frugal install to internal Harddisk > default behaviour is that changes under / are saved to the savefile (assuming that you already have a savefile running) in real-time (immediately). So if you save/create a file anywhere under / (except /tmp and a few other top running system folders, I think) it will immediately be saved to the savefile which is mounted at /initrd/pup_rw
2. Frugal install to usb drive > savings to the savefile takes place in time intervals which you can choose (30 minutes is the default). This means that changes to the filesystem are not saved to savefile immediately but only after the time interval as specified. Also note that in this case your actual savefile is mounted at /initrd/pup_ro1 and the interim changes during a session is recorded at /initrd/pup_rw before it is saved to the savefile after the time interval.

You can mimic the usb behaviour described in 2 above when you have HDD installation as in 1 by changing the entry for media you boot from in your boot configuration, eg: changing atahd to ataflash. In this situation Puppy will "think" you are booting from and using a flashdrive.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3621
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 21:09    Post subject:  

Hi nic007,

Thanks for mentioning the need for that boot argument change when booting from a hard-drive. I think, by now, I've mentioned it so often that I forget when I haven't.

One of this days --when I don't get lost in responding to a post-- I may get around to writing a post for the 'Beginner's Section' on How to configure a Frugal install: The techniques I've learned from others, such as yourself, and a layman's understanding of why --layman's because (a) that's all I am and (b) newbies will get lost in the technicalities anyway.

Then we can all make suggestions for its revision; and thereafter, just reference the post with a 'See Paragraph 4 (d)'.

But I think I'll wait until gyro, with the help of bigpup and others, finishes work on Frugal Pup.
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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 21:13    Post subject:  

Quote:
You can mimic the usb behaviour described in 2 above when you have HDD installation as in 1 by changing the entry for media you boot from in your boot configuration, eg: changing atahd to ataflash. In this situation Puppy will "think" you are booting from and using a flashdrive.


thanks for the extensive explanation, can you explain how to that because when it is booting it is just boot and I donot know fro where I can do such change.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3253
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 21:23    Post subject:  

Yes, Mike. Please do write the "manual" for beginners (and maybe not so much beginners). The usbflash boot "trick" for HDD is a good one as available memory can be used before any data is written to the savefile. Should actually be the default behaviour for all frugal installs.
Last edited by nic007 on Tue 19 Nov 2019, 21:35; edited 1 time in total
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3253
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019, 21:29    Post subject:  

memo wrote:
Quote:
You can mimic the usb behaviour described in 2 above when you have HDD installation as in 1 by changing the entry for media you boot from in your boot configuration, eg: changing atahd to ataflash. In this situation Puppy will "think" you are booting from and using a flashdrive.


thanks for the extensive explanation, can you explain how to that because when it is booting it is just boot and I donot know fro where I can do such change.

If you use grub4dos as bootloader: change pmedia=atahd in the menu.lst file to pmedia=ataflash
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