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 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
https://puppylinux.rockedge.org/ : Transitioning To
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3913
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul 2020, 20:27    Post subject:  https://puppylinux.rockedge.org/ : Transitioning To  

Hi All,

Taking a bit of my own advice from here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1062369#1062369. If this has been discussed elsewhere, please provide a link.

The Situation:

John Murga was an early fan of Puppy LInux. You are reading a post on a website he graciously set up 15 years ago, +/-. During all this time John has also graciously funded it and continues to do so. But for at least the last 10 years he has not actively administered it. Many of its Moderators are no longer active. To a large extent this Forum has Absentee Ownership and Absentee Management.

Our Community, operating as a "do-acracy" has managed not merely to have survived, but I believe even prospered. But it has become increasingly evident that the 15+ year old technology powering this Website is not only incapable of adapting to current needs but is even failing in one of the primary purposes of a Forum: that of facilitating communication among those who desire to communicate.

It is time to replace this Forum with a new one. rockedge, in the spirit of 'do-acracy' has graciously, created one: https://puppylinux.rockedge.org/.

The Questions:

What steps do we have to take in order to migrate to that site?
What problems do you foresee in doing so?
What solutions to those problems do you suggest?
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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1601
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul 2020, 21:04    Post subject:  

This forum is fine as far as I am concerned.

I will miss you guys. Shocked
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1555

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul 2020, 21:35    Post subject:  

FWIW, I think part of the anxiety can be helped by knowing we aren't in danger of losing years and years of content we rely on.

This is a thread about getting archive.org to archive your whole site/board and some hacks, who to ask nicely, and a paid way to do that.

https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/115369/how-to-archive-the-whole-website
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tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 1767
Location: Drøbak, Norway

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 02:01    Post subject:  

What is the point? An upgraded phpBB? There is already an 'alternative' forum linked to at the top of this page. I feel confortable in this forum, please don't ruin my experience.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3444
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 02:06    Post subject:  

There are only 1050000 posts to be copied over to a new site. Start copying you lazy Puppyists.
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mostly_lurking

Joined: 25 Jun 2014
Posts: 332

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 07:21    Post subject:  

Personally, I prefer phpBB2 over phpBB3, as it's simple and works with pretty much any browser, and the version on murga-linux.com doesn't even require cookies or anything to log in and post. The e-mail problem would need to be sorted out, of course.

I had a look at rockedge's forum and noticed some accessibility issues that may especially affect users of older Puppy versions:

I'm currently using Seamonkey 2.33.1, and I usually have cookies and Javascript disabled. While the front page of the forum displayed fine with this, I was greeted by a blank page when I tried to open a subforum. Looking at the page source revealed that it uses a script to create a cookie named "__test", which is apparently required to view the actual pages. So I enabled scripts and cookies, and it worked. It switched to HTTPS; however, when I closed and re-opened the page, it reverted back to HTTP and remained that way. (I'm not complaining - I don't really see much of a point in using HTTPS for a forum like this anyway...)

I've tested some older browsers, like Seamonkey 2.19 on Precise 5.7.1 and Firefox 17 on Slacko 5.7, and they can only display the forum pages (other than the front page) with Javascript disabled and no HTTPS, presumably because they don't support TLS 1.2 or whatever the site is using (they come up with error messages about interrupted connections, which I've seen before on sites that used HTTPS protocols not supported by the browser in question).

The "lightweight" browsers like Dillo, Netsurf and Links2 (relatively recent versions) all fail. Netsurf had cookies enabled; it was missing the "__test" cookie, though. I had Javascript turned on, but I suspect Netsurf's capabilities in that area are too limited.

So, unless my test results were due to something strange happening on my end, it looks like this forum may be more or less inaccessible for any Puppy older than Tahr (at least when using the default browsers that come with these systems), unless the user recognizes what the problem is and jumps through a few hoops to make it work:

First, load a forum page (not just the front page; ignore the "interrupted connection" error) with Javascript enabled, so that the "__test" cookie can be created, then disable Javascript and re-open the page to circumvent the HTTPS requirement. With Javascript disabled and the "__test" cookie present, the site remains in HTTP mode. (I haven't tried to log in, so not sure if it works as it should.)
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jafadmin

Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 1258

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 07:58    Post subject:  

FWIW, I don't find an MX record for murga-linux.com to begin with. Perhaps the forum software is using a different email domain?

Also, regardless of what future plans entail, they should include porting the current data over. The primary value of this site is it's vast reference resource.
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ozsouth

Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 862
Location: S.E Australia

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 08:59    Post subject:  

I have mixed feelings. The new site looks great. Could be a good move. But there is a wealth of content on this site.
Access for older systems seems a limitation on the new. Search & attachment options are an issue on this site.
Hopefully, rockedge has several 'lieutenants' in mind for continuity/backup, apparently is an issue here.
Also, what will happen to the 'official' alternative site? Will this fragment the community?
I've been around this forum for 15 years (incl. prev. id) - is very familiar.
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mostly_lurking

Joined: 25 Jun 2014
Posts: 332

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 10:40    Post subject:  

ozsouth wrote:
I have mixed feelings. The new site looks great. Could be a good move. But there is a wealth of content on this site.

Same here. This site is where all the content is. Information, packages, lots of more or less relevant discussions, and lots of people to have those discussions with. Losing all of that would be a pity, and possibly a huge problem especially for people who use older Puppy versions and need this forum as a resource to find software for their system.

ozsouth wrote:
Also, what will happen to the 'official' alternative site? Will this fragment the community?

You mean this one? It looks like it has only one active user right now.

As for fragmentation - I guess for the time being, most will stay here, where all the people and all the content can be found. Unless all of this can be ported to another site (at least in a scraped, read-only state, if it's not possible to obtain the whole database), moving would seem like too big a loss, and might only happen if this site here actually goes down.

The best thing, of course, would be to get a hold of our elusive site administrator to either fix the problems, or get the data. It seems that Flash and others haven't been able to contact him for quite some time... more than a year, I think? The question is, why. Did anything happen to him, or has he just decided to go on a hiatus (without telling anyone...)?

This site still seems to be getting maintenance to some extent; at least, the hosting bills are being paid, and the domain was renewed last November. Of course, that doesn't tell us *who* is doing this.

In another post on this subject, I mentioned a cursory Google search which had turned up some web presences that *might* be his (although I guess one can't completely rule out that there is another John de Murga on the web who is also a programmer...). If the man is actually still around, I wonder if it would be possible for someone with an account on such a site to leave a message there?

In the above-mentioned post, I also quoted an older post by John Murga where he said he would "often check the forum's health" - whatever that might mean -, but didn't see many posts. Could he still be doing that, but is unaware of any problems because he didn't see these posts and decided to not be reachable via e-mail or PM anymore, for whatever reason?

Is it possible for a moderator to write "John Murga, we need your help!" on the forum's front page in giant letters, with a link to one of these discussions? Desperate times require desperate measures. Very Happy

nic007 wrote:
There are only 1050000 posts to be copied over to a new site. Start copying you lazy Puppyists.

Good one! Razz
But seriously, if the site was smaller, I'd imagine it wouldn't be such a big problem to crawl it to get at least a read-only copy of the relevant data. But with 1 million posts, how big would that copy be and how long would it take? Would that be even remotely realistic?
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fabrice_035


Joined: 28 Apr 2014
Posts: 768
Location: Bretagne / France

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 12:09    Post subject:  

@mikeslr : requested internationalisation ( section française )
thx

edit : registration captcha ... and what do you see? Rolling Eyes >


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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3913
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 13:11    Post subject:  

Perdido: “This forum is fine as far as I am concerned. I will miss you guys. Shocked

Nobodies leaving. Think of it this way: “We’re merely considering how to hitch our wagon to a different pony” Smile .
Edit: Considering the audience, perhaps easier to understand: "We're merely considering how to hitch our sled to a different team." Laughing

tallboy: “What is the point? An upgraded phpBB? There is already an 'alternative' forum linked to at the top of this page. I feel comfortable in this forum, please don't ruin my experience.”

The objective is not an ‘alternative’ forum but rather ‘the same forum’ just in a different location and with greater flexibility. There are already a couple of ‘alternative’ forums. They may be useful especially if their focus is specialized. But to carry on a meaningful dialog referring to previous posts, one central location is necessary: You can’t start a conversation in one place; have those interested jump someplace else, jump back, jump away, jump back and so on.

One place to look for ‘what’s new’. One place to bring to the entire community's attention problems and resources.Two “General Forums” will ruin your experience. Two “General Forum” and a divided community is likely to result in neither a community nor a viable Forum.

There’s also this to consider: None of us are getting any younger. Does anyone know John Murga’s age or health situation? Does his Will provide for a perpetual trust to maintain this Forum?

Greater flexibility: Well, does phpBB3 present insurmountable problems? mostly_lurking suggests that the older and/or light-weight web-browsers --which many older Puppies must use-- have difficulty accessing posts on https://puppylinux.rockedge.org/

To what extent is that a limitation of phpBB3 and to what extent is that the effect of a configuration setting which can be changed?

Of course, puppylinux.rockedge.org is rockedge’s creation. He can construct it using whatever software he chooses and configure it in anyway he wants. And it is entirely appropriate for him to take into consideration security features. But I would urge him to not “throw the baby out with the bathwater”.

We may all be transitioning to newer computers with greater resources. But one of Puppy Linux’s primary reasons for being is to serve the needs of those who only have access to less powerful computers. A website they can’t use is a website they can’t use: see above regarding a fractured community.

What will happen to http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/index.php. Again, this is the fragmentation issue. It is counter-productive to have two Forum of General Puppy interest. IF THERE IS TO BE A TRANSITION, then for the last few days before it takes place “murga-linux” can go into ’maintenance mode’ -- I assume that’s possible. Notification emails can be sent to registered users. But probably more effective is that upon re-opening, at the end of each current thread and where-ever else it may be useful, would be a Post to the Effect:

“The Puppy Linux Discussion Forum has moved to https://puppylinux.rockedge.org/. Please examine its structure and/or use its Search facilities there to determine an appropriate location for your post.”

Several posts have mentioned its necessity. And being able to accomplish it may prove the biggest challenge. It being “transferring all content over, even if transferred as READ-Only.”

New threads there can include, when necessary, references to READ-Only posts. The new site must have a robust Search engine to find previously written content.

But how to get it from here to there? This is something I have absolutely no experience doing. Add that there are over a million posts on this website. I don’t think duplicating its content will occur in a “jiffy”. And I’m pretty sure Murphy’s Law must be taken into consideration.

Can wget be used? https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/downloading-entire-web-site-wget Be used as an interim step, with the duplicated content then up-loaded in READ-ONLY form to puppy-linux/rockedge?

If I haven’t misinterpreted, https://www.eff.org/keeping-your-site-alive/mirroring-your-site, what we’re actually interested in is a wget output called a mirror: “Making a mirror of your website is not the same as making a backup. When you mirror your website, you download a copy of all of the files that make up your website (images, CSS and JavaScript files), as well as static versions of the HTML... Unlike a backup, it will look just like your website, but it's important to understand that a mirror of your website is not an exact copy. It is a static copy, meaning that you can't do anything dynamic such as log in, edit posts, or post comments.
When you make a mirror of a website you download every single page on the website. For large websites, you might be making hundreds or thousands of requests to the web server, and it may take a lot of time or bandwidth. For small websites it should finish fairly quickly.”

We don’t have a small website. Can it be done ‘piece-meal” --One Section at a time? If so, how? Are there alternatives to wget?

Last edited by mikeslr on Mon 06 Jul 2020, 18:58; edited 2 times in total
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taersh


Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 14
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 13:37    Post subject:  

I tried to register to rockedge's forum.
The code of the image was unreadable to me, so I chose to get a new code. It returns always the same image. I entered it two times wrong, so registration denied.

Haha, what's the difference if I can't register by code or by not receiving the activation mail. Laughing
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3444
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 14:31    Post subject:  

Look, I'm willing to start to post on the new forum only but it won't serve any purpose if most posters/all posters do not follow. I don't think it's necessary to get all the post contents over to the new forum, a selected few stickies is what I would suggest. Start anew. The old site can always still be used as a "reference library" for what's been before as long as the site is still alive. We should just decide to all posts on the new forum from now on and refrain from doing so on the old site. Can the ability to post on the old forum be blocked in a way?
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 15041
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 14:59    Post subject:  

nic007 wrote:
Look, I'm willing to start to post on the new forum only but it won't serve any purpose if most posters/all posters do not follow. I don't think it's necessary to get all the post contents over to the new forum, a selected few stickies is what I would suggest. Start anew. The old site can always still be used as a "reference library" for what's been before as long as the site is still alive. We should just decide to all posts on the new forum from now on and refrain from doing so on the old site. Can the ability to post on the old forum be blocked in a way?

Hi nic007.

I think that's easy. Somewhat like banning everyone, perhaps.
Or putting members on lurk mode only.

Flash could forbid any new postings on this old forum starting
on date such-and-such, with an announcement to send people
to rockedge's new forum.

BFN.

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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3913
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul 2020, 15:02    Post subject:  

nic007 wrote:
Look, I'm willing to start to post on the new forum only but it won't serve any purpose if most posters/all posters do not follow. I don't think it's necessary to get all the post contents over to the new forum, a selected few stickies is what I would suggest. Start anew. The old site can always still be used as a "reference library" for what's been before as long as the site is still alive. We should just decide to all posts on the new forum from now on and refrain from doing so on the old site. Can the ability to post on the old forum be blocked in a way?


Yes, that is a reasonable approach. One of the possibilities IF a piece-meal mirroring is possible. Much of the content written years ago is no longer valid, or even useful. Many links are already dead. But some useful content remains. Certainly anything to do with Programming hasn't changed. By way of contrast, given the current demands of Websites --and how many people will actually want an operating system which can't access the Web?-- specific content about Puppies before, say Slacko 5.7, is more of historical interest than immediately useful. [Slacko 5.7 was suggested 'off the top of my head'. Even that 'terminus point' should be open to discussion].

Another example: my guess would be that pretty much anything having to do with the debian dogs remains useful. But, certainly fredx181 and rcrsn51 would have firmer handle on that question.

If rockedge is willing, we could divide up reviewing what's on murga-linux, and prepare a list of what should be 'mirrored' and what can left out, with reasons. Then, open the list for discussion.

puppylinux.rockedge.org/ is rockedge's creation so it is appropriate that he have the final decision. But, at least, we --who often take part in guiding newbies, or answering questions on the "For the Regulars" Section-- can contribute toward his reaching an informed decision.

That is "IF" a piece-meal mirroring is possible. That is a programing question about which, as always, to quote a guy named Schultz "I know nothing."

So, I would suggest that the order of business be:
1. Find out if a 'partial mirroring' of a website is possible. What are its limitations? Can a "Thread" be identified? A Section? What are the parameters of a partial-mirroring?
2. Perhaps do a test-run about a something most of us agree should be mirrored: Bionicpup64? What problems arose? How to over-come them?
3. IF a partial mirroring appear do-able, discuss how to divide up a review of murga-linux's content?
4. Seek volunteers and/or offer to review whatever "parts" can be identified consistent with the discoveries of Step 1.

Any steps beyond the above would likely be just speculation. The truth is that only Step 1 is currently possible.

Last edited by mikeslr on Mon 06 Jul 2020, 15:23; edited 1 time in total
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