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 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
https://puppylinux.rockedge.org/ : Transitioning To
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 6397
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul 2020, 16:50    Post subject:  

perdido wrote:
It is interesting reading in this thread, people that have nothing to do with the management or running or ownership of the site are calling for the site to be permanently locked because they want to force evrybody to do what they want. Just what gives anyone besides John Murga the right to lock his site without his permission? The bills are paid and the site does what it is designed to do. Don't try to force your opinion on me. If you want to move then move. None of you that want to lock the site have any authority here.

Site runs fine for me. It is not overloaded with spam. Always loads using minimum resources.
There are no ads. Nobody trying to make a living off the site traffic.


Perdido's certainly got a point. But this kind of "major" change - even discussion of such - is always going to throw up multiple opinions.

Sure, there's always going to be a few "eager beavers". There always are. "Well, if we're going to do such-and-such, then let's get on and do it..."

Then there's the vast majority who are happy with the way things are, see no reason to upset the status quo, and are perfectly happy to 'suck it and see'.....and wait for developments.

At t'other end of the scale are those who will find every conceivable reason not to 'change over'.....

----------------------------------------

The "http vs https" argument has been going on as far back as I remember. Periodically, it gets dragged out of its casket, dusted down, paraded around for a while and then abandoned again. Until the next crusader comes along!

I absolutely agree that this site is one of very few nowadays that will function with minimal hardware requirements, even elderly browsers that most Linux users wouldn't give you house-room for. But at the same time, we have to accept that Palemoon drops 32-bit support at the end of the year. Firefox's "requirements" are slowly creeping up all the while, with a jump to glibc 2.17 mandated by current Quantum, along with corresponding jumps for libstdc++ and GTK+. The clones are mostly 64-bit only, and the few 32-bit versions need pretty new Pups that older 'puters struggle with.

Nobody is trying to "force" anyone across to the new forum. But supporters of such a move are putting their point across "vigorously", shall we say.....and with staff appearances being at a minimum (Flash doesn't tend to put in an appearance until he feels it's necessary), some folks tend to forget they even exist, and go a wee bit "lairy"...

My only real concern here is that we don't lose access to the wealth of information this forum represents. It's good to know the site is apparently still being maintained, and the bills are paid. Fair dibs to JM, and many thanks again.

I'm thinking here more of those guys'n'gals who through no fault of their own are stuck with 32-bit hardware. In a lot of respects, the clock is ticking....

------------------------------------------

(Interesting 'fact' there about makoto. I didn't even realise he was "staff". Where I moderate over at BleepingComputer, my God! talk about structure. They have a team of 'Advisors'. We have a team of about 10 mods - including me - then there are 3 Global Moderators, one overall Admin guy, and of course Lawrence Abrams himself, the founder (aka 'Grinler').

Then they have what amounts to a 'Malware Removal College', which folks sign up for, go through various tests/exams to advance through the various levels - the site was originally set up to help folks with Windows 'issues', and that's still its primary function, though the Mac and Linux forums are expanding all the while. The 'Malware Removal Team' have a whole system of procedures & rules set up to do with how 'sufferers' should contact them, what to do once you've been contacted, what you should or shouldn't do with your machine until they give you the 'all-clear'.....it's akin to being sent to the headmaster's office in disgrace!!

Every staff member's 'function' is clearly displayed under their avatar, all in different clour codes (so everybody knows who's who, and what their function is).....and to top it all off, the "staff" have their own set of forums, which are completely hidden to the average member! Frankly, I've never seen owt quite like it anywhere else....and the staff over at BC 'police' themselves, too! There's even - or was until very recently - one staff member who acted independently from everybody else, was a 'go-between' for the different 'teams', and was basically the staff's "enforcer". Go figure......but with a membership of well over a million, I guess you have to have some structure.

All very different to the way we do things here... Laughing )


This is still, and always will be, my favourite 'home-from-home' on the web. I'd hate to lose touch with you guys. Whatever it takes, IMO.


Mike. Wink

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Last edited by Mike Walsh on Tue 07 Jul 2020, 18:12; edited 1 time in total
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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 5834
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul 2020, 17:56    Post subject:  

mikeslr wrote:
specific content about Puppies before, say Slacko 5.7, is more of historical interest than immediately useful. [Slacko 5.7 was suggested 'off the top of my head'. Even that 'terminus point' should be open to discussion].

I almost choked on my own gizzard when i read that.

My daily driver is still built on Slacko 5.6 and as much as possible i use even older puppies where they match the needs of an old PC.

Wherever possible I go back to GTK1 and basic utilities and scripts in order to avoid overblown programmes and browsers that no-one can understand or control.

To be honest i feel that some of you are becoming too "web-centric".

Why not simply stay with Windows or Ubuntu if you find it acceptable for Google and others to lead you astray via a firmly embedded nose-ring??

Now that Google is involved in heavy censorship and misinformation i think we all have a responsibility to drive them off the web - not suck up to them.

Whenever i encounter a Captcha or ReCAPTCHA i now inform the website admin staff that their use of Google software is blocking me from accessing my account. I question them about how many actual "bot" attacks they have really suffered and why are they happy to use those unconvincing stats to separate me from access to my money?

And people want to mark this forum "read-only" in order to force puppians to lock-step with dogs and google acolytes?

Wow, how things change. Talk about biting the hand that feeds....

Anyone remember freedom and individuality????
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2075
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul 2020, 19:25    Post subject:  

greengeek wrote:
And people want to mark this forum "read-only" in order to force puppians to lock-step with dogs and google acolytes?


I doubt any Dog-only user really cares whether "puppians" move forum or not.

Most of these inaccurately grouped together Dog-distributions have little or no relation to each other, and most of them are not in any way "derivatives" of Puppy Linux either despite a few of them adding a few utilities and configuring their desktops to look like a traditional Puppy. DebianDog, for example, is a derivative of Debian Live, but with alternative initrd boot options (e.g. one being a modified initrd from Porteus Linux). Certainly, some of these Dogs are as small as any current Puppy, though not all, and they can generally provide, at least, similar facilities to any Pup.

But the comment regarding "puppians" is a reminder that despite Murga forum members creating and making available all sorts of Projects, including various long-established member-created distributions (which sometimes adopt the word Dog - DebianDog, for example, having its dev threads on here since 2013!), the forum continues to call itself the "Puppy Linux Discussion Forum". An anachronism which cuts off a whole section of its most productive members. Personally, though I do occasionally still fire up a Pup or two, I always refer to this forum in a more representative way as the "Murga Forum".


perdido wrote:
Administrators are here
Flash
Makato
ttuuxxx


Which is also interesting, because if any of these forum members actually do have Administrator rights (rather than just Moderator rights) then they have always had the ability to re-organise the forum according to its actual content and thus represent all of the forums membership. Instead, most all threads are about "Puppy" this or Puppy that, whilst all the other long-established other distributions provided to the forum membership are relegated to odd corners and inappropriately named "Puppy Sections" - the result being a horrible mix of very different distro projects, impossible to organise HowTo and Tutorial/Documentation information, and utter confusion for any new forum member who manages to beat the email registration traps.

What a shambles indeed, and if any of these individuals truly were given Administrator status then they have a lot to answer for in terms of avoiding to do their job of appropriately representing the forum's membership and its needs.

Since one, at least, of all of these Administrators appears to have the forum rights to appoint new Administrators perhaps a good first step to help prepare for the future would be to appoint rockedge as a new Murga forum Administrator.

wiak

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Check Firmware: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1022797
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rockedge


Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 1874
Location: Connecticut, United States

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul 2020, 21:03    Post subject:  

The Captcha during the registration process is now disabled.

I had turned it on because the forum was flooded with Spam bots which register but don't activate because the email addresses being used to register are bogus. The Captcha function is built in and easy to enabel/disable. I prefer it off if at all possible.

The goal is to make a mysql export which will run through a conversion script to "translate" the murga forum SQL file into the phpBB v3+ database structure format. The new forum would take on the the same structure as the murga forum and the chaos could continue.

Another possibility would use the same SQL export file and run a different script on it that would funnel the murga forum data into it's own sub forum on the new forum (if you get my meaning)

New forum is only a platform for what already is a strong and vibrant community and is a work in progress. The phpBB3 is only the rails for the Locomotive. The administration and moderation duties can be shared and remember those roles require responsibility, focus and reliable work.
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 3702
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul 2020, 07:57    Post subject:  

I always thought that Puppy's "raison d'etre' in the first place was to continue support for older machines.
I use a 32bit machine as my daily use machine and will be extremely unhappy to find that it can no longer access sites.

I have been a computer programmer/consultant since 1967 and have seen the death of 8bit and 16bit general computing. I would rather not have to see 32bit support go out of the window.

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mostly_lurking

Joined: 25 Jun 2014
Posts: 332

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul 2020, 08:43    Post subject:  

rockedge wrote:
The goal is to make a mysql export which will run through a conversion script to "translate" the murga forum SQL file into the phpBB v3+ database structure format. The new forum would take on the the same structure as the murga forum and the chaos could continue.

Provided we can get the database from Mr. Murga...
rockedge wrote:
Another possibility would use the same SQL export file and run a different script on it that would funnel the murga forum data into it's own sub forum on the new forum (if you get my meaning)

I think I get the meaning; I've seen something like this on another site in the past, where the data from another forum was integrated as an "archive" sub-forum. If I remember correctly, the transition was from phpBB to XenForo; it was facilitated by the fact that the usernames on both forums were identical - those had both been game forums, and people had registered with their in-game names.

wiak wrote:
[...]if any of these forum members actually do have Administrator rights (rather than just Moderator rights) then they have always had the ability to re-organise the forum[...]

@ Flash and other admins: is this the case? Are you able to create new forum sections?

If yes, could you maybe make a new one titled "Forum Problems - PLEASE READ!" or some such, and put it right on top, above the "House Training" one, so that anyone who visits this site will notice it? (Maybe including John M. if he ever comes by.) Then move the relevant threads to it, and maybe add a sticky topic there with a contact e-mail for people who need their account activated, like the example text in my previous post, that was picking up a suggestion by Smithy.

And maybe a topic that offers a short summary of what the problem is, and what has been discussed so far:

Example wrote:
=== Summary: What is this all about? ===

For some time, many users have not been able to receive e-mail notifications from this site, which is likely due to the forum sending them over an unencrypted or otherwise not sufficiently secure connection, which causes many e-mail providers to reject the mail. This is especially problematic for users who have just signed up and are unable to receive their activation e-mail, as they can only log in after contacting an administrator and getting their account manually activated.

The site's owner, John de Murga, has not been seen here and has not responded to any e-mails or PM's sent to him for a long time. There does not seem to be anyone else here who has the authority to fix any technical problems.

While the forum still appears to be actively hosted - the bills are obviously being paid, and the domain seems to be getting renewed regularly - there is some uncertainty about the site's future; both about the hosting, and about the inability to take care of any technical issues that might occur.

Hence, people have started to talk about switching to a different site, and forum member rockedge has set up a new forum at https://puppylinux.rockedge.org. So far, only few people have signed up there, and there have been lengthy discussions about the pros and cons of moving. Some arguments brought forth are:

For moving:
- uncertainty about how long the murga-linux.com site will continue to exist
- newer forum software
- a chance to "start new" and re-organize the forum in a more comprehensive manner

Against moving:
- fragmentation of the community: some may move while others prefer to stay here
- losing lots of content from this forum (mainly information and software packages), or at least making it inconvenient to access (either having to go to a different site for it, or using a web-crawler to obtain a read-only copy of this forum's publicly accessible content); a problem that could only be solved by getting a hold of Mr. Murga and his forum's database to port it to the other site; even just copying the "most relevant" threads manually would be a huge task
- various possible accessibility problems on the new forum: difficulties signing up due to e-mails not being received or hard-to-read captchas during the registration process; lack of support for older/lightweight browsers that users of old computers and Puppy versions rely on

Whatever the decision will be, a satisfying solution will likely depend on whether Mr. Murga can be contacted, to either fix the problems of this site, appoint a new server administrator to perform such tasks, or obtain the forum's database to move it to another site.


Here are the threads on this topic that I found. Did I miss any?
https://puppylinux.rockedge.org/ : Transitioning To (this thread)
Asoulutely Ridiculus A Major Forum with NO ADMINISTRATORS?
Problems posting on forum (relevant discussion starts on page 2)
Work on the test forum
Unable to register
A new record for forum users

Last edited by mostly_lurking on Wed 08 Jul 2020, 09:14; edited 2 times in total
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 4499
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul 2020, 08:59    Post subject:  

Barry created Puppy.

John Murga supports Puppy.
He even delivered an early micro version>> Meanpup

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=10427

That the forum has worked so well for so long is a tribute to both people.

As for Flash I have nothing but complete respect for the hours
he has put in.

Nothing lasts forever but as long as it lasts I am happy with the
Murga experience.

In a world so divided let's not bicker.

I wish everyone success in their new forum.
Report back occasionally to just say hello.

Cheers....Chris.
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Trobin

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 982
Location: BC Canada

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul 2020, 12:37    Post subject:  

I would suggest that i8f you do make this move, you set a date for the move. Give enough advance notice so that users can et what they want to keep, just in case it doesn't transfer over.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3913
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul 2020, 16:37    Post subject:  

@ rockedge “The Captcha during the registration process is now disabled.
I had turned it on because the forum was flooded with Spam bots which register but don't activate because the email addresses being used to register are bogus. The Captcha function is built in and easy to enabel/disable. I prefer it off if at all possible.”

For reasons having nothing to do with Puppy Linux, I was thinking of creating a blog with associated forum and examining Captcha and Anti-spam alternatives available to phpbb and smf. I kind of remember one of the alternatives was to require potential registrants to type the answers to some questions. Maybe a graphic (human but not machine readable) could be used as a sign to a (not-indexed) page providing both the questions and answers and the link to actual registration? Just an idea. Maybe half-backed. Laughing

I'll have to carefully read the last several posts before adding to the discussion Smile or confusion. Rolling Eyes
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tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 1767
Location: Drøbak, Norway

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul 2020, 20:54    Post subject:  

This started with complaints about many people on facebook that could not log in to this forum, and moderators that did not respond to that, and many heated remarks.

1) One facebook person mentioned, so far.
Several members in this forum showed that the registration process is up and running, by making new members.
It turns out that the facebook person in question did not follow the default procedures to make an account, and therefore failed.
Exclamation Case dismissed.

Question Where are the other cases?
No? Really?

This is what we in Norway call a storm in a glass of water, I think brits call it storm in a teacup.

If such drivel prompts some of you to make your own Puppy forum, please, go ahead. I feel sorry for the future moderators in that forum, if their members start to revolt over peanuts, and I feel sorry for the future members that will have you as moderators.

But, why do you bother the rest of us with this?

Edited: My use of the word drivel was maybe out of place, sorry! I try not to offend people by characterizing their opinions.

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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 13653
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul 2020, 21:44    Post subject:  

Tempest in a teacup.

But it really is a problem. Confirmation emails sent to Gmail from the forum have been a problem for years. I tried to find a way to ask Google about it and failed. Sad
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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 1157

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2020, 02:10    Post subject:  

sundar@google.com
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3444
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2020, 02:45    Post subject:  

I registered with a gmail account in 2011. Tried again to register with a new gmail account, no go. Now I wonder how many new users we are losing who can't register with a gmail account? Seeing that gmail must be the most popular, it must be plenty. BTW - I've registered with a few other forums lately with my gmail account, no problems. Logic would suggest that this is not a google/gmail problem but a problem with this aged forum.
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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 1502
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2020, 03:31    Post subject:  

Tallboy wrote

Quote:
This started with complaints about many people on facebook that could not log in to this forum, and moderators that did not respond to that, and many heated remarks.

1) One facebook person mentioned, so far.
Several members in this forum showed that the registration process is up and running, by making new members.
It turns out that the facebook person in question did not follow the default procedures to make an account, and therefore failed.
Exclamation Case dismissed.

Question Where are the other cases?
No? Really?


Tallboy, you're missing the point. This isn't about facebook. That is just the place people are going to to try and get info about registering here. If they could register here, they wouldn't have gone there.
Gmail & google are primarily to blame here. The forum does exactly what it is supposed to do, just google doesn't like it.
Where are the other cases? Probably using another distro because they couldn't create an account here to solve their problems.

Flash wrote:

Quote:
But it really is a problem. Confirmation emails sent to Gmail from the forum have been a problem for years. I tried to find a way to ask Google about it and failed.


Thank you Flash for trying to do something. Google has made their rule, the forum's old software doesn't do what they want. Trying to get them to accept it is only going to fall on deaf ears, they don't care about Puppy Linux. (maybe they don't want to acknowledge their apparent roots...)

http://blog.jeff-nelson.com/2012/11/on-inventing-chromebook.html

nic007 - thanks for giving it a go with the problem maker (gmail) and confirming the problem.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3444
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2020, 03:43    Post subject:  

When I tried to register with the gmail account the registration process didn't seem to finish at all nevermind anything about a confirmation message. Does the registration finish by confirming that a confirmation message is being sent (which is normally the case)? If so, my registration process did not succeed to that point.
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