Puppy on very old Win98 machine

Booting, installing, newbie
Message
Author
wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#31 Post by wayne »

Crash wrote:Wow, the mystery thickens... How was your PUPPY CD generated? I made mine from the downloaded .iso file. I used Nero to burn it to a CD-R. It won't boot on every computer I have tried it out on, but at least it is readable by every computer. Is the CD finalized? Some older computers won't read a CD that isn't finalized.
Crash you may struck on the problem. I down loaded the 2.13 ISO from PUPPY Website to the desktop. Using SONIC burned the ISO to the CD-R/W. BUT .... I may not of finalized it. I'm not at my computer so it may be tomorrow before I can check it out.
Last edited by wayne on Mon 19 Feb 2007, 04:42, edited 5 times in total.

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#32 Post by wayne »

muggins wrote:also some people have burned many puppy coasters until, upon trying different brand of cdrom, achieving success. i've come across older computers that don't like CD-R/W, but have no problem with CD-R.

so no luck with sbm boot floppy?

Thanks for the heads up on the coasters muggins.

Tomorrow morning is scheduled for SBM; I'll post back.

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#33 Post by muggins »

wayne,

i haven't used windows in ages, (except at local library), so i'm not familiar with the program sonic, but i thought i'd mention that a common problem, with people burning isos on windows, is when they burn them as data, & not as a bootable iso.

which is why BK makes special mention of the free, tiny program, burncdcc, which is only for burning isos:

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/utilities.html

(N.B. this mightn't be relevant to your cd booting probs, but i thought i'd mention this just in case)

Sage
Posts: 5536
Joined: Tue 04 Oct 2005, 08:34
Location: GB

#34 Post by Sage »

It's not the age of the PC that's a problem, but the age of the CD-drive, in particular, and the CD-RW drive or media in some cases. Try to choose a drive with a speed >~36x, ie made after ~1999. If not, change it - four screws (two are unnecessary!) and three cables. No need to buy one, they are being junked at the rate of hundreds per second in favour of DVD drives. Traxdata, now defunct, and TDK media have caused me more grief than most others. Probably recorded elsewhere that optical drives have been more troublesome than any other component; shelf-loads of spares - just ask.

A couple of asides:
Please don't use 'Wow' for a while - it offends in a Linux Forum!
Be sure that the BIOS is flashed to the latest/last version on all these old machines. Very unlikely that CD booting wasn't incorporated on any file written after ~1998. If in doubt, check via http://www.wimsbios.com/.

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#35 Post by wayne »

Sage wrote: Please don't use 'Wow' for a while - it offends in a Linux Forum!
Thanks for for the heads up.
Last edited by wayne on Sun 18 Feb 2007, 21:47, edited 4 times in total.

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#36 Post by wayne »

muggins wrote:wayne,

i haven't used windows in ages, (except at local library), so i'm not familiar with the program sonic, but i thought i'd mention that a common problem, with people burning isos on windows, is when they burn them as data, & not as a bootable iso.

which is why BK makes special mention of the free, tiny program, burncdcc, which is only for burning isos:

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/utilities.html

(N.B. this mightn't be relevant to your cd booting probs, but i thought i'd mention this just in case)
Thanks muggins. I'm OK with the burning.

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#37 Post by wayne »

muggins wrote:also some people have burned many puppy coasters until, upon trying different brand of cdrom, achieving success. i've come across older computers that don't like CD-R/W, but have no problem with CD-R.

so no luck with sbm boot floppy?
muggins: Which SBM are you posting about? Slackware Smart Boot Manager Floppy or Smart Boot Manager from SourceForge? The Slackware SBM I tried with no luck, but as you and others pointed out other things may be in play which defeat SBM. I'll do the corrections that have been put forward, and post back the results.

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#38 Post by muggins »

the slackware sbm floppy is derived from the same source.

when you say that you had no success with the slack sbm floppy, does the floppy at least boot? (if it doesn't, then either bad floppy, bad dload of sbootmgr.dsk, or bad write of this file to floppy - if using windows need to use utility like rawrite)

if the floppy does boot, but doesn't give you the option of booting cdrom, then:
Boot from CD-ROM

Smart BootManager supports booting from almost all kinds of IDE ATAPI CD-ROM, including PCMCIA CD-ROM. But some special IDE controllers may have different I/O ports, which prevent Smart BootManager from finding the CD-ROM. In this case, you can set the I/O ports by hand. Run the command "Set CD-ROM I/O Ports" (in System Settings Menu). An input box will appear to let you input the I/O ports. Each IDE controller has two I/O ports, e.g. 0x1F0,0x3F6 (the master IDE controller). Input those I/O ports exactly in the following format:

1F0,3F6 (Uppercase hex numbers with a comma in the middle)

After entering the I/O ports, you must use the command "Rescan All Drives" (Ctrl-I) to find the CD-ROM.
(N.B if sbm gives you a 0xAA message that it can't find any bootable cdrom device, this could mean that cdrom drive is empty, or that the cdrom is a bad burn)

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#39 Post by wayne »

muggins wrote:the slackware sbm floppy is derived from the same source.

when you say that you had no success with the slack sbm floppy, does the floppy at least boot? (if it doesn't, then either bad floppy, bad dload of sbootmgr.dsk, or bad write of this file to floppy - if using windows need to use utility like rawrite)

if the floppy does boot, but doesn't give you the option of booting cdrom, then:
Boot from CD-ROM

Smart BootManager supports booting from almost all kinds of IDE ATAPI CD-ROM, including PCMCIA CD-ROM. But some special IDE controllers may have different I/O ports, which prevent Smart BootManager from finding the CD-ROM. In this case, you can set the I/O ports by hand. Run the command "Set CD-ROM I/O Ports" (in System Settings Menu). An input box will appear to let you input the I/O ports. Each IDE controller has two I/O ports, e.g. 0x1F0,0x3F6 (the master IDE controller). Input those I/O ports exactly in the following format:

1F0,3F6 (Uppercase hex numbers with a comma in the middle)

After entering the I/O ports, you must use the command "Rescan All Drives" (Ctrl-I) to find the CD-ROM.
(N.B if sbm gives you a 0xAA message that it can't find any bootable cdrom device, this could mean that cdrom drive is empty, or that the cdrom is a bad burn)

muggins..I am using rawwritewin 7.0 [penguin]. The SBM floppy boots on w2k machine and on Debian Etch machine and gives an option menue. The SBM doesn't boot on the Win95 machine and says the SBMK Bad :?: Because SBM doesn't boot on Win95 I cannot tinker with the IO port settings. What now :?:

Also>> I've downloaded Sbootmgr.dsk to the desktop of Debian Etc and typed the dd command in the root terminal I get this: debian:/home/wayne# dd if=sbootmgr.dsk of=/dev/fdo
dd: opening `sbootmgr.dsk': No such file or directory
What am I doing wrong :idea:

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#40 Post by muggins »

if you've got a sbm floppy that boots on win2k & debian machines, then there's no need to dd another one. the same floppy should work with your win95 machine. that it doesn't indicates something amiss with the hardware of your win95 machine...floppy controller? ram? i think we need to fly sage out via helicopter to have a look at this.

i was going to suggest that you could put sbootmgr.dsk on your hard disk, then install grub to your mbr & get grub to boot sbootmgr.dsk, then use this to boot the cdrom. but then i realised this would necessitate using a grub floppy to install grub to your mbr.

do any floppy's work with your floppy drive?

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#41 Post by wayne »

muggins wrote:if you've got a sbm floppy that boots on win2k & debian machines, then there's no need to dd another one. the same floppy should work with your win95 machine. that it doesn't indicates something amiss with the hardware of your win95 machine...floppy controller? ram? i think we need to fly sage out via helicopter to have a look at this.

i was going to suggest that you could put sbootmgr.dsk on your hard disk, then install grub to your mbr & get grub to boot sbootmgr.dsk, then use this to boot the cdrom. but then i realised this would necessitate using a grub floppy to install grub to your mbr.

do any floppy's work with your floppy drive?
Win95 boot floppy boots to A: Win95 System floppy boots and with Win95 CD to install the OS. DR Dos boot floppy boots to A: Dr Dos lite will install from three floppies. The floppy operates normally when accessed through desktop MyComputer i.e., reads and formats. Also I booted a Compaq restore floppy today just to see what would happen the floppy booted and went through its quite involved process before I exited. But when sbootmgr is given a go SMBK Bad!

I now have CD-R coasters, so tomorrow I'll burn PUPPY and try it with Wakepup.

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#42 Post by muggins »

well, if you're floppy is working, and it's just that particular floppy it doesn't like, then you could try sbootmgr via grub.


i've attached a file that contains memdisk, sbootmgr.dsk & grub menu.lst. (menu.lst is written to boot just cdrom, and assumes that sbootmgr.dsk lives in /boot/grub on hda1).

if you extract this file to a floppy, copy it to hda1, with the same /boot/grub directory structure.

then you could download a grub.img file, then write this to a freshly formatted floppy with rawrite.

this link has a grub.img: http://www.dolda2000.com/~fredrik/grub.img

then when you boot the grub floppy, you will get a grub prompt: grub>

typing:

Code: Select all

 grub> root (hd0,0) 
          grub> find  /boot/grub/stage1
         grub> setup (hd0) 
should install grub to your hdisk's MBR.

then boot, after removing floppy, & cross fingers, smart boot manager should boot & allow you to boot cdrom.

if this works & you get the cdrom booted, then you can use the cdrom's universal installer to install puppy to hdisk & overwrite all of the above.
Attachments
grub.zip
(80.49 KiB) Downloaded 236 times
Last edited by muggins on Mon 12 Feb 2007, 06:47, edited 1 time in total.

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#43 Post by muggins »

just in case, here's another link for a grub.img, (gzipped with this one)

http://sourcefrog.net/projects/grub-img ... 440.img.gz

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#44 Post by wayne »

muggins wrote:just in case, here's another link for a grub.img, (gzipped with this one)

http://sourcefrog.net/projects/grub-img ... 440.img.gz
Thanks muggins all of this seems very 8) Just to sum up:

1) Win95 on the Gateway works as well today as when I bought it direct from Gateway many years ago. All of its parts do exactly what they were designed and assembled to do. The floppy and CD read and execute media written for Win95 and the Gateway box.

2) Burned Puppy 2.13 image file to new CD-R. Win95 doesn't read the CD-R and will not boot it with WakePup. WakePup hangs at FREE Dos with cursor blinking. Must warm boot to break out.

3) Created new SBM floppy using Debian.

Here is the output:

debian:/home/wayne# dd if=sbootmgr.dsk of=/dev/fdo
216+0 records in
216+0 records out
110592 bytes (111 kB) copied, 0.0762662 seconds, 1.5 MB/s
debian:/home/wayne#

Booted new SBM. No CD-R in tray.

Here is the output:

The following file is missing or corrupted: C:\CDD /WCD.SYS
There is an error in your CONFIG.SYS file on line 1

A:\>C:\CDD\MSCDEX.EXE /D:WP_CDROM /M:20
Bad command or file name

A:\>PATH=C:\LP77

A:\>

Well if a file is corrupted did SBM corrupt it :?:

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

Win95

#45 Post by wayne »

Burned an exact copy of commercial CD that both reads and boots on Win95. However, Win95 will not read nor boot the exact copy. Also: when Win95 boots with exact copy in tray My Computer does not show the CD Drive. How weird is that :!:

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#46 Post by muggins »

if you go into your bios, what is the order for boot devices? AFAIK you can't have a win95 machine with a floppy, &/or cdrom, that will only boot win95 media. if the bios is set to boot from floppy/cdrom before hdisk, then it should boot whatever OS is on them.

are there particular gremlins peculiar to gateway 'puters?

also, is your intention, if you can get puppy working on the gateway, to wipe win95 & use puppy?

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#47 Post by wayne »

muggins wrote:if you go into your bios, what is the order for boot devices? AFAIK you can't have a win95 machine with a floppy, &/or cdrom, that will only boot win95 media. if the bios is set to boot from floppy/cdrom before hdisk, then it should boot whatever OS is on them.

are there particular gremlins peculiar to gateway 'puters?

also, is your intention, if you can get puppy working on the gateway, to wipe win95 & use puppy?
muggins: PUPPY is my distro of choice Win95 will be wiped.

boot order: A: then C: or C: then A: no option for D:


muggins: I need to know if were talking apples and apples or apples and oranges here. What is the definition for booting. 1) Place a CD in the tray when the computer is up and running and the CD automatically initiates and gives you a tour or some sales pitch. 2) Place a CD in the tray and the computer needs to be rebooted to activate the CD. Is the first instance simply a case where the CDROM reads the CD and not boot operation. Is the second case a true boot operation with or without a boot floppy?

I didn't intend to convey that only Win95 CD boot, I have other commercial CD that boot such as Gateway CD. You simply put the CD in the tray and it comes alive. I have an compaq restore disc that boots with its floppy, also the floppy boots by itself. I could go on. Of interest to me is why - an exact copy made of a CD that boots in Win95 [without a boot floppy] will not boot :?: By the way I now have a writer that burns as slow as 4X.

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#48 Post by muggins »

we might be talking apples & apples, but whether your's are granny smith's, like mine, is questionable?
boot order: A: then C: or C: then A: no option for D:
so which is first, A or C? if C: then no wonder you're having trouble with sbm floppy!

and if your bios supported cdrom boot, it would give you that option. so we're talking about having a cdrom start afterrebooting.

it appears that, maybe, your bios doesn't support cdrom boot...but i'm still in the dark as to why it doesn't allow you to boot from a non-win95 boot floppy???
Last edited by muggins on Tue 13 Feb 2007, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#49 Post by muggins »

wayne,

also, when you mention that you've got a cd burner etc....have you tried/dloaded burncdcc?
i never had any iso problems when i was using this program on windows.

wayne
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon 29 Jan 2007, 08:56

#50 Post by wayne »

muggins wrote:we might be talking apples & apples, but whether your's are granny smith's, like mine, is questionable?
boot order: A: then C: or C: then A: no option for D:
so which is first, A or C? if C: then no wonder you're having trouble with sbm floppy!

and if your bios supported cdrom boot, it would give you that option. so we're talking about having a cdrom start afterrebooting.

it appears that, maybe, your bios doesn't support cdrom boot...but i'm still in the dark as to why it doesn't allow you to boot from a non-win95 boot floppy???
muggins: Boot order is set to A: then C:

Bios does not give an option cdrom boot.

The cdrom does boot other than Win95 media. I have many CD that boot both on W2K and Win95 some requiring boot floppies and others that do not. The machine hosting Win95 just doesn't like [ for whatever reason] the media I've been feeding to it.

What about the GRUB approach how does that work :?:

Post Reply