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Puppy 2.15CE Standard Edition - Trim the Fat!
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Tue 27 Feb 2007, 11:10    Post subject:  

My comment was intended to bring focus to the thread (and admitedly, bump it up). I'm sorry it had the oposite efect.

May I suggest returning this thread to the original purpose? What can be trimmed that will have an impact? Specific things.

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TheSquire

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb 2007, 17:13    Post subject:  No X at All?
Subject description: One Vote for a Console-Only Variant
 

The official 2.15 release might not be the best place for it, but I would really appreciate a modern Puppy with no X at all. No X and no graphical apps. What I'm after is a fast, lightweight console only OS, easy to install to hard disk, with enough drivers to support the kinds of hardware I'm using. Could we generate a version <50 MB installed?

[The best I've done so far is trim Puppy 2.13 down to ~109 MB installed... but this includes Xorg and Dillo. If I remove more, I break things. Sad ]

It would be a little like SLAX 5.1.8 Frodo - except it would be Puppy! And modern! With drivers for USB-Serial adapters and such.

If such a No-X base for Puppy were implemented, I could imagine a console-based technique for adding X. Perhaps a nifty script thingie using wget to fetch the needed file(s).

[I'm a Linux noob or else I'd apply myself to generating the Puppy variant I've described. Maybe as my 1337-ness increases...]

Anyway, thanks so much to the Puppy community for a great distro. Keep up the great work!
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xandas

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar 2007, 06:03    Post subject:  

I downloaded 2.14. All right. But, it doesn't recognizes our Sound Blaster cards.
And it was impossible to get working the voip phones we use daily.
So, the trimming of Alsa and so on was -at least for me- a bad choice, that forbid me the use of 2.14.
Does not seems coherent to stretch the code when the old machines are left out Puppy. The newer ones does not need so stretching, at all !!!.
By example, I navigate several hours each day. In the alternative to change the
browser plenty of features I use, (which simpify greatly my browsing life ), simply to get the goal of five megas more small the obliged solution is to change to a older Puppy version.

My proposal is to make a small Puppy version, full of libraries and drivers, with a menu to install those programs we need. Some people will install graphic programs, other music developement ones, some others offfice suite, so I propose to include a menu that allow to install the personal programs each guy needs, letting a lot of other programs out. And remaster the CD.
Without compel by force the guys to use programs they doesn't likes.
The freedom of choice is a flag between who censure M$ practices.

Do not forget that all must be simple to let the not-initiated people not need to compile anything or follow the smart guidances that a lot of generous guys post in the forum, but that doesn't help to spread Puppy, and Linux, among the masses (not technically minded people).

I propose that certain features must be included: it is awfull when navigating the browser doesn't shows the pages "comme il faut" or ask for a inexistent plug-in or doesn't show the stream of videos that apperars into the newspapers frequently., or reboot in other version to see a powerpoint file that a friend attach to its mail.
Or when browsing off-line the browser shows the code instead the formatted page, as usually happen with small navigators.

As my girlfriend told me, small not always be the best.
Xan
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Springer


Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Tue 06 Mar 2007, 23:10    Post subject:  

Good ways to trim fat out of the Standard Edition (V): General theme - avoid needless duplication. A few suggestions:

ONE X server. Do we *really* need two, especially in Standard?

ONE Window Manager. We DON'T need more than one of these!

ONE Very Good default theme/background/icon set.

ONE Calculator (with a STRONG preference for one that can use algebraic OR RPN entry. Right now, for all the calculators we have, there's still not one that does RPN (HP-style, the standard in business and finance (because of the HP-12C), and also favored by many of us engineers.)

ONE Text Editor. I know they're small, but do we really need FOUR text editors? Pick one and make it the default. SIMPLIFY!

If the new PETget system really allows single-click installs (haven't tried it myself, yet), then adding pieces is no problem for the people that need something different.

The beauty of Puppy is it's simplicity and size with very rich functionality. It's niether the smallest distro, nor the most complete (nor should it try yo be either), it's simply the best bang-for-the-byte that produces a system that JUST WORKS.
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 01:11    Post subject:  

Actually, better to have two text editors: one for in X, and one for the commandline. Ever try fixing a script with just cat, echo, grep, and sed? I can tell you now I'd have trouble. Think how a new user would feel! Give them good old MP, with it's familiar interface.

Themes can stand to be chopped down a little more, to maybe two or three. Only go to one if space is very tight. Eliminate the similar ones first (multiple XP, multiple Velvet, etc.)

I didn't look at the backgrounds, but only a couple are needed. 3 tops.

The reason I don't advocate a single theme/wallpaper is that this is the standard version, not a barebones. Just because there's a big version doesn't mean the standard can be stripped naked. Having a few themes (only a few mind you) really helps in the user-appreciation department. It gives an illusion of space, like the ISO is really packed with stuff, even though they only take a couple hundred kb. The trick is to limit yourself to just several themes, or the size starts to get too big. Two or three distinctly different themes are plenty.

As for X servers, the setup for Xorg has improved a lot since we first got it. But unless the vast majority of hardware works with it, it still might be good to include Xvesa. Hardware is one of my weak points, so I don't know how well it's support is. I do know that that's the reason Barry has kept Xvesa so long.

Now, for JWM, I don't really see any good reason to keep it, other than for choice's sake. It wouldn't even be needed as backup, because IceWM is so sturdy. It really is minuscule though, so it doesn't hurt any.

Hmm... I'm thinking back to the old days when we used FVWM95 and JWM was the "cool new second WM" that you could convert to out of the box. Choice factor again. It made Puppy that much cooler to ship with a second windowmanager for an imperceivable size increase.

Actually, the JWM configuration utility is bigger than JWM. Laughing

But yeah, the standard Puppy hasn't had a second WM since Barry dropped FVWM, so it's not like we'd be breaking tradition by not having JWM included as a second choice.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 01:29    Post subject:  

Springer@

I support what Pizzasgood had to say about multiple copies. With very few exceptions, there are either very good reasons or a significant split in preferences. It's surprising how many Puppy users have stayed with JWM, despite the availability of Icewm. There are even some still using Fvwm, believe it or not. The next Puppy will probably be a toss up between Icewm and Xfce, the way things are going with our younger generation of Puppy's.

No-one would rather see the demise of Xvesa than me, but for sheer compatibility with lots of older hardware, its unbeatable. I have machines that simply won't boot with Xorg, and Xvesa is the only choice. Some even drop back to 320x200 and 4 colours for crying out loud! I just couldn't configure them without Xvesa. As soon as I get them running I can bump up the resolution and colour support, but seldom can I move them up to Xorg - not yet.

Themes, backgrounds and icons are my Ace in the hole, so to speak. When I get desperate for space to meet a size target, they're the first things to go. That said, I don't want to lose what will be, I hope, a Puppy showpiece for those outside the community, and more themes, etc does help convey the idea of getting more bangs per buck.

Have you tried Fox calculator in Puppy 2.15CE Beta1? I don't know but maybe that's the one you've been looking for. Just a thought.

Pizzasgood@

I had planned to drop JWM from the Beta1 to see what sort of reaction it would bring. Trouble was, it was almost not worth the hassle because of its size! I want the CE to be a unifying experience for the community - something we can all be proud of together - so leaving in JWM for its many devotees was really the only choice. It will be revisited before Final if the community wants it so, however.
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 01:38    Post subject:  

Doesn't matter to me either way. In fact, the only reason I dropped it from Pizzapup was to save me from having to maintain/support it.

Two reasons someone might prefer JWM are that you can scroll the mouse on the title bar to roll up the window, and you can roll the mouse on the desktop to change desktops. And on a slower computer, it's probably faster than IceWM, though I doubt by much.

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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 1169
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 10:41    Post subject: about stripping out one of the X servers  

In respsone to Springer:
strip out xorg and you loose the ability to change refesh rate ect...
stripout xvesa and puppy won't run on strange hardware or many emulators. So IMHO keep them both.

cb88
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 11:07    Post subject:  

What can I say that I didn't say in my first post in this thread?

Removing 100 small things makes no diference. Ooops, I had already said that.

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zigbert


Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 5723
Location: Valåmoen, Norway

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 11:40    Post subject:  

I agree, Rarsa. But I also see Lobsters point of clean menus.
In 2.15beta, there is 3 filemanagers, 2 cd-rippers, 3 burner programs, 3 backup-programs, 2 file finders, 2 grep-progs, 4? texteditors...
Choices are nice, but...... there is a petget. Wink
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 13:53    Post subject:  

zigbert wrote:
I agree, Rarsa. But I also see Lobsters point of clean menus.
A) I don't remember this thread being about clean menus. I remember it is about trimming fat.

B) Geany is not a text editor is a development environment. It is not categorized correctly. That leave us with Leafpad and MP plus that other small editor I don't remember the name which is the one included in initrd in case something goes really wrong.

The worst thing that can happen when having two editor entries in the menu is that you always choose one and ignore the rest. I think that we should not patronize "new users".

I haven't read a post from a new user saying that they got confused with three calculators but I've read people saying that "other people" may get confused. That big brother attitude may even be ofensive to some "new users".

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GuestToo
Puppy Master

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 4078

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 14:38    Post subject:  

Quote:
Right now, for all the calculators we have, there's still not one that does RPN (HP-style, the standard in business and finance (because of the HP-12C), and also favored by many of us engineers.)

xcalc can run in TI mode or RPN (HP10C) mode ... trouble is, xcalc is a bit buggy in rpn mode

see my xcalc wrapper dotpup, which runs xcalc in 5 different styles, including colours, large fonts, and rpn mode: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16040

you can use dc on the command line, for rpn calculations

# dc -h

# dc 2 3 \* p
6

# dc
2 3 * p
6

i have hp67, kalc, and rpncalc installed on my machine

Quote:
Good ways to trim fat ... avoid needless duplication

no, as has been said, when you have a 100 meg distro, and you remove 200k or so, you still have a 100 meg distro ... but you definitely have less functionality ... the 80/20 rule also applies here (80% of the bloat is from 20% if the apps)

Quote:
do we really need FOUR text editors?

yes

if Puppy does not boot properly, it might be useful to have a text editor available ... e3 is only about 10k compressed ... 100 megs minus 10k = 100 megs

mp is a powerful and useful text editor for general purpose editing in command line mode

leafpad is a simple and useful general purpose X application ... it is the text editor that i use most of the time

Geany is more than a text editor, as rarsa says, it is a development environment. ... personally, i use leafpad more often

remove all 4 applications, and you still have a 100 meg distro ... with considerably less functionality
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GuestToo
Puppy Master

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 4078

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 14:43    Post subject:  

note: my xcalc wrapper is not installing a new application ... it is just running xcalc, which is already installed in Puppy, using the fonts and configurations that are already in Puppy (well, i added an alternate colour configuration for the TI calculator, and i added the TI colours to the RPN caclulator)
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar 2007, 17:06    Post subject:  

Quote:
I haven't read a post from a new user saying that they got confused with three calculators

Erm,... I get confused. I never liked any of them though, so I just use a real calculator. My only confusion was in remembering which one was which though. I didn't see the options and say, "Oh no, what do I do? Too complex!" I just opened them all then made my decision.

Leafpad starts much much faster than Geany, which makes it better when just opening plain text. Geany has tons of great features for coding (syntax highlighting, keyboard shortcuts for multi-line commenting, auto-indent, geometric select, function collapse, function listing, etc.) It's very small anyway. Keeping it adds much more functionality than weight, it's worth it.

Even xmms is only 1.5 MB decompressed. After the filesystem compresses, it probably adds at most 1 MB, probably more like 0.8. Thats enough that the overlap with Gxine becomes nagging, but not too much. It's much faster to start, and more friendly to use. Reason: it doesn't support video. Replacing it and Gxine with a unified solution would require that unified solution to start as fast as xmms, or save a significant amount of space (more than .8 MB in my opinion).

That said, I'm all for dropping Gxine for something nicer. I'm no videophile so I couldn't offer suggestions. I do know that I've never liked Gxine though. Does VLC offer the same functionality or more in the same space or less? If so, add it (keeping xmms unless VLC fits the conditions of the prior paragraph).



As for bootsplash, Puppy's boot scripts are pretty different from most distros. To enable a third party bootsplash would probably take a great deal of work. I once began looking into that, but decided it would be easier to just make a Puppy specific bootsplash program. There is a working beta in the cutting-edge forum (named "Pebble"), which I worked on in the fall. It's not the best implementation by far, and lacks the ability to have animation, split screens, or change to text. I don't even know if it works with the newest Puppies. But it worked back in 2.02.

I have plans to start fresh with a better design that will make the above features possible. I just haven't gotten to it yet. For one thing, it will require C/C++, which I hadn't used in years and am re-learning now. I'm to the point now where I could start on it. My first goal is to get Pizzapup 3.0.1 done, then I'll finally start in on it.

Puppy does support a brief splash when booted from the CD, which is currently used to display optional boot parameters. It can display images too. It only lasts until the kernel and initrd.gz are loaded though, then is replaced by boot-text (which is where my bootsplash will kick in).

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zigbert


Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 5723
Location: Valåmoen, Norway

PostPosted: Thu 08 Mar 2007, 10:56    Post subject:  

I guess it's not important, but I thought the Linsta gtk-theme was a little to big for me, so I tweeked another. I haven't checked the size of LiNsta in 2.15CE beta, maybe it's stripped, but original is is 226kb compressed. H2O-Stardust is 12kb.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16203
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