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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Changing boot sequence witout enter BIOS?
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Sirexel

Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 23
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 05:13    Post_subject:  Changing boot sequence witout enter BIOS?  

For most simple PC users enter the BIOS is to much misterious.
(More enough when they are not english spoken)

I know to change boot sequence from BIOS is the cleanest way to boot a Puppy CD, but when that is not an option:

Are there any way to force CD boot just when HD but has started? May be through GRUB?

In fact I don't want to change the BIOS.
May be even more transparent. Something like:

1. Normal HD boot.
2. Boot intercept -> look at CD drive: Is Puppy there? Then boot Puppy. No? Then continue normal HD boot.

No text, no options, no delay.

And all that installed (and uninstallable) from a little app: PpDSlnch.exe, Pp98lnch.exe, PpXPlnch.exe

---
Why? Motivations.

In my quest for an EasyPuppy (Puppy for not very able PC users, or not PC users still at all) I find that BIOS setup is beyond their possibilities.

I know PuppyWin98 (very interesting) and I have a Puppy HD NTFS isntall on my machine but by the other hand, a live-Puppy or a multi(session)-Puppy, are the best solution for them (a clean, secure and safe way to pupping without any possibility to harm their machines).

I think 80% of EasyPuppy users have DOS, Win95, Win98 or WinXP on their machines.

And I need a way to make them boot theirs CD without asking them to enter the BIOS.

Thx
Sirexel Smile
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11131
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 05:57    Post_subject:  

If the first boot device is A (or drive A is before the HD) then you can use a floppy to boot to the CD-ROM

http://www.murga.org/%7Epuppy/viewtopic.php?t=390&highlight=oldbios

The way I set my computer up is first boot device is CD-ROM

If there is no bootable CD-ROM disk in the drive, it boots the hard disk.
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Guest
Guest


PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 06:01    Post_subject:  

I think that in messing with the BIOS is too much for a user then no way should they be installing ANYTHING that messes around with the MBR...cos that's the only way what you propose could happen
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 07:43    Post_subject:  

"Let them eat cak"

Smile
Only joking . . .

Dunno if being able to access Linux files from Win is of any interest . . .
http://www.fs-driver.org/

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4796
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 08:12    Post_subject: Floppy OK  

Bruce's solution is useful - even newer machines with floppy drive are configured to boot from floppy first.
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 10:26    Post_subject:  

raffy... newer machines come without a floppy.

Sirexel. In principle your idea seems simple. Actually something like you are describing would be more complex for a new user as you would have to configure it for the particular hardware configuration they have. What if they have two CDs? what if one is SCSI or USB? An inexperienced user would have no clue why would that matter.

As I said in a different thread. Don't assume that inexperienced users (or non english speaking users) are dumb or living in a void. Do you know how to use the BIOS because you are more intelligent than they are?

Motivated and curious inexperienced users will learn how to do it (as you did the first time).

Inexperienced users that just want to turn on the computer and don't care about what or how it does it, will ask a friend or call technicall support.

I still don't think that your mythological gran'ma exists. People either don't want to depend on someone else, in wich case they try to learn. Or they don't want to learn and accept that they will have to depend on someone else.

My question again: Have you EVER met such a computer user?

Actually, if they are so inexperienced, how did they get to know about Puppy in the first place?
- They bought a linux magazine: they are curious users willing to learn
- A friend handed them a copy: They are not isolated and have someone to ask to
- This is their first computer ever and puppy came preinstalled: They don't even need to care about the BIOS, puppy is already there.

Conclusions can only be correct if the premisses are.
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11150
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 12:14    Post_subject:  

The BIOS directs the CPU to begin executing the code at the beginning of the hard drive, where resides the Master Boot Record, or MBR for short. Among other things, the MBR contains a program called a bootloader, for loading the OS(s) contained on the hard drive. The bootloader in turn jumps the CPU to yet another location on the hard drive, where there is a file which contains the next step in the loading sequence for Windows. If that file could be moved, and, say, GRUB substituted for it (with GRUB cofigured to point to the new location of the Windows file which was moved, for booting Windows,) would that work?

See? Nothing to it. Laughing
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 18:05    Post_subject:  

My point is that installing, understanding and configuring grub is much more difficult than going into the bios and changing it.
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Guest
Guest


PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 18:13    Post_subject:  

rarsa wrote:
My point is that installing, understanding and configuring grub is much more difficult than going into the bios and changing it.


Right on...and changing the BIOS isn't forever
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Sirexel

Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 23
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 18:40    Post_subject:  

rarsa wrote:
My question again: Have you EVER met such a computer user?


Of course. But I would rather prefer not to personalize because the we start talkin on a particular case, and that is not very usefull.

Anyway, just as an example, one of my best friends is one of this users.

He is just a worker building houses, he doesn't speak english. He is very simple and practical.

He likes to play old PC wargames, like Panzer General II. He uses word to write contracts, email to play wargames by email, and Explorer to browse Inet to find something related with Barón Rojo (a heavy rock group).

When a new wargame shows he wait a couple of years to buy it, because he knows that a new game costs 50 € and only 8€ ater that time. He has money but he is no hurry because there are a o of old games to play with meanwhile.

Now he uses Windows XP home edition. He would prefer to use Win98 because he is more confortable with it, but it lacks drivers for his printer (a gift) and his TV card (but just now he has not an antenna plug for it).

I talked him about Puppy Linux and he was skeptical because he feels 'Linux is harder than windows or otherwise all people would migrate to Linux'.

He hat to learn Windows XP but he would prefer not to do it.
He musted learn how to install Windows 98 because 'it can not run flawlessly for more that a couple of years witout to reinstall'. (He install a lot of demo games that always let some kind of problems after uninstall).

I entered his BIOS, changed the boot sequence, and I asked him 'try to open your DVD film (somebody borrowed him).

---
He doesn't like to enter the BIOS. He doesn't understand anything on there and he is feared to damage his machine. He knows how to change the boot sequence because he needed that to install Win98 but anyway he is awkward.

He asked me how would he recomend Puppy to a friend if both them doesn't know to enter the BIOS.

I said him:
'Well It is easy. You must hit "borrar" just at the begining, after the first logo. Well. Sometimes it is "suprimir", altough sometimes it is F2, F8 or F12. Although in my laptop it is "Acces IBM. You just have to look on the screen to see what it says. DEL is "borrar", I don't remember how it is "suprimir"... The rest, ok, just read the screen but, ops! you have just half a second to scan through twenty understandable lines to search something like 'press X to enter BIOS''.
'Then you are inside. Try to search something like '*whatever* boot *whatever*. Use scroll key to higlight it, altough sometimes it is RePag, AvPag, or TAB. Then Enter, altough sometimes it is right cursor.
Search someting like 'boot sequence'. Sometimes is just a list like C,A, CD-rom. Sometimes is like 'first device, second device...'. Change the orther to put CD-rom in first place. How? Well, sometimes with cursor, sometimes TAB, Av/Re Pag, with 'x' to include or exclude a device the change the order...
OK. You got it. Exis and save: sometimes F10 or F12 and the answer Yes or No, when it asks if you want to save and exit, or exit without save changes. Just read the screen. Oh sorry, you don't understand english!'
--

If you think this is easy or practical just copy and paste in the Wiki and you have a new HOW TO. My friend says 'no way' and his friend never will know Puppy.

Altough this is not a great lose for Puppy comunity it is an example why Puppy can not reach more people.

Windows it is preinstalled in (near) all machines and thousands of owners
have never enter BIOS.

If it would be a way to change the boot a Puppy CD without to enter the BIOS just double clincking a little EXE depending on your windows version, that can be done by every newbie user.

If not, may be a HD install it is the answer.

Anyway, may be changing the MBR is the only solution, what I think it is not a preblem for them:
1. They never heard about it, so they can not feel any fear about that.
2. An unistall program should exist to restore MBR.

It is too late now I must sleep. I will continue how could my friend play the movie and how he feel about that.

Thanks. And remmber mine are just suggestion with all my gratitude to real Puppy developers.

'Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies.'
Sirexel Smile
in Puppy
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Guest


PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 18:56    Post_subject:  

In your friends situation running puppy isn't going to give him any gains if he simply wants to do what you say. And the time spent trying to run his games under linux would just not be worth the effort.

Just a builder..........pull ya head in. Without builders you freeze cos you got no place to live, without honest,caring skillful builders you die because the building around you falls on your head.

Without tradesmen ya all (inserted bad word here)
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4796
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 20:00    Post_subject: No complaint  

People who are installing Puppy in Windows are not complaining:

http://www.ph-islands.net/pupinstall/winxp.php

(it also has links to the Windows 98 install)

_________________
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? Get the sfs (English only).
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug 2005, 23:10    Post_subject:  

sirexel: Your friend is the perfect example of a user unlike the ones you are describing.

He is lucky to have a friend (you) that can help him to change the BIOS. That was my point.

One thing to consider is that thankfully there are options, Windows is one of them and that's a good thing.

Some people want, like or need Windows, others don't. Puppy (or Linux in general) cannot be everything to everyone.

During a regula day I use Windows XP, Windows 2000, zOS (Mainframe OS), Puppy and Fedora (another linux). I would not expect Puppy to behave like the others. It has it's own place.

As a good friend, I would be helping someone to use Windows XP more effectivelly if that is what they need.
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