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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
New Orleans: A Geopolitical Prize
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2005, 17:23    Post subject:  

klhrevolucionist wrote:
Did GOD not warn you of great deception?
And the deception came in the form of religion...

Wink sorry I could not restrain my self. Very Happy

Let's keep the conversation focussed on New Orleans...
Godtalkstobush.jpg
 Description   The title for the cartoon is: AND GOD SPOKE WITH BUSH.

the sign says "Bush, resign NOW"
 Filesize   23.37 KB
 Viewed   1096 Time(s)

Godtalkstobush.jpg

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Walt H


Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 216
Location: citizen of the world

PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2005, 17:26    Post subject: Re: well  

klhrevolutionist wrote:
I can only say from what the experts were saying, that it was only a level 3
or whatever hurricane.
So, just how did the leveee break???


First, there really is no such thing as "only a level 3 hurricane." Such a storm carries winds up to 130 miles per hour. Wind speeds less than that destroyed the Hood Canal Floating Bridge in Washington state in the late 1970s.

Actually, I believe Katrina was a Category 4 hurricane (winds to 155 miles per hour)when it made landfall, but that is only part of the story. The winds were only part of the problem. Because the hurricane stretched 120 miles in any direction from the eye (much larger than 1969's Camille, which was technically a worse hurricane as a Category 5 storm, the strongest or highest level), the storm produced massive and continuous surges of water, something which I believe has accounted for much more of the New Orleans damage than any winds and may also help account for the breaching of the levees.

Lack of funding for upkeep may have also played a role.

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Walt

Now that you point it out to me, the answer seems painfully obvious.
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klhrevolutionist


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1124

PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2005, 17:35    Post subject: no  

No, stop watching the government telling you what it was.
And listen to the people who have been doing their job all there lives.
It was no category 4 nor 5 but a 3.
which means? If the levee could withstand level 3 hurricanes, how could it have tumbled? Just as the twin towers did, government.
Look at hitler he set fire to the reichstag and blamed it on the jews.
Look at all the suport he got from his fellow men! Astounding, but not the great U.S.A right? Wrong, there are a number of government archives that I read almost daily, looking for stuff our government has and plans on doing.
As a good rock band once said in a song ->Bush the band "history moans"
And will always do so, as you might oir might not know, they us americans all
lies, forget anything these people ever told you in history ands political science. Start reading! And when you think you have read enough it keeps getting better. Yes they are this arrogant to make such documents available!

http://www.archives.gov/

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Walt H


Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 216
Location: citizen of the world

PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2005, 19:43    Post subject:  

What !!!???

First off, the government did not give me my information, the weather people, trained to gather and measure weather data, are the ones who classified the storm for me. The people on the ground, who have no formal meteorological training weren't likely to know whether it was a Category 3 or 4 storm. Furthermore, they probably didn't care. Either level is a dangerous and dealy storm.

Your analogy of the Twin Towers does not work here. With that tragedy, an argument could perhaps be made that government policies drove some fanatics over the edge. But government policies did not cause Katrina. More funding might have lessened damage to the levees but would likely not have prevented flooding in New Orleans.

I am a lifelong Democrat, but despite my dislike of Bush and of the far Right, I would not go so far as to blame a natural disaster on him. Once the survivors are accounted for and dead found and identified, there will be blame enough to go around - to Democrats, Republicans, local, state, and federal officials. But as many have said, that is a discussion for another day.

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Walt

Now that you point it out to me, the answer seems painfully obvious.
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2005, 22:44    Post subject:  

I feel guilty for saying this, but I have gotten some good laughs out of this topic.

A. Cartoons (even though I more or less support Bush)
B. Spanish cartoons posted by a Canadian (shouln't be funny, but it is)
C. Calling weathermen reliable
D. Wanings about deceit from one who is just as likely to be decieving me as the gov (no offense khl, but I get a laugh out of people who try to convince me of their views and warn of deceit at the same time, because I can just turn it around and throw it in their faces)

As for N.O., I don't give a crud how good your levies are, if you are below sea-level and a hurrican comes in, you're gonna get flooded. The levies can stop outside water, but not rain. And hurricane classes really mean very little. They are written by humans, thus highly prone for errors, and are not written in stone. You can't just say, "This can handle a class 3 hurricane." It doesn't work that way. Hurricanes are analog, not digital, if you get my drift. They can't be divided into a couple sizes, because there are so many in-betweens and charictaristics.

Instead of trying to blame people, we should try helping. Blame me if it makes you feel better, but give the red cross some cash too.

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Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib

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Walt H


Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 216
Location: citizen of the world

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 01:45    Post subject:  

Pizzasgood wrote:
I feel guilty for saying this, but I have gotten some good laughs out of this topic.

C. Calling weathermen reliable


Having once done weather on television (in another career), I know how hard it is to predict what the weather is going to do. Having said that, the weathercasters where I live are actually very reliable. In addition, my point wasn't that they are reliable predictors of the future but that they were the ones examining and analyzing the existing (i.e., present, not future) data, not the government.

pizzagood wrote:
And hurricane classes really mean very little. They are written by humans, thus highly prone for errors, and are not written in stone. You can't just say, "This can handle a class 3 hurricane." It doesn't work that way. Hurricanes are analog, not digital, if you get my drift. They can't be divided into a couple sizes, because there are so many in-betweens and charictaristics.


If you actually look at the definition, you'll see they aren't divided into sizes, per se; rather, they are divided into five ranges, each of which has its own range (not specific value) of wind speeds and tidal surges associated with it. The classifications make it easier to talk about hurricanes but do not tie storms into a "one size fits all" scheme. In the sense that they help people to get a better sense of what is being discussed, these classifications are useful and meaningful.

pizzagood wrote:
Instead of trying to blame people, we should try helping.

I believe I tried to say this, although at some point, questions will need to be asked and answered about what went wrong. For instance, local, state, and federal officials staged an exercise earlier this year involving a mock hurricane in New Orleans ("Pam" it was called). That exercise assumed the levees would be damaged and assumed a significant number of deaths. At some point, it will be interesting and may be important to know what, if any recommendations came out of that exercise and the extent to which they were implemented.

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Walt

Now that you point it out to me, the answer seems painfully obvious.
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acklan on a rant
Guest


PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 02:52    Post subject: Re: no  

klhrevolutionist wrote:
No, stop watching the government telling you what it was.
And listen to the people who have been doing their job all there lives.
It was no category 4 nor 5 but a 3.
which means? If the levee could withstand level 3 hurricanes, how could it have tumbled? Just as the twin towers did, government.

Look at hitler he set fire to the reichstag and blamed it on the jews.
Look at all the suport he got from his fellow men! Astounding, but not the great U.S.A right? Wrong, there are a number of government archives that I read almost daily, looking for stuff our government has and plans on doing.
As a good rock band once said in a song ->Bush the band "history moans"
And will always do so, as you might oir might not know, they us americans all
lies, forget anything these people ever told you in history ands political science. Start reading! And when you think you have read enough it keeps getting better. Yes they are this arrogant to make such documents available!

http://www.archives.gov/


It wasn't the 150 mph winds as much as it was the 16 foot wall of water that was pushed out of the north, from the lake that did the damage. As far as reading, you should reseach from credible sources instead of the made up garbage on the internet. $3.99 a month and a little html coding and anyone can be an "Expert". Research Congress, the House, local leeve boards. I have little love for any politication, red or blue, but to blame anyone person or party is silly. Bush 41 had 4 yrs, Clinton had 8 yrs., Reagan had 8 yrs, Carter had 4yrs, Ford had 2yrs, Nixion had 6 and I don't see you bashing any of them not to mention the local fools.
You need to stop reading those hate sites and go to your local town meetings, keep up with your State House, and the feds. I do. I don't rely on others to interpet issues for me.
I see you quote the bible. God refers to use as his flock, but I don't think he wants use to be lambs lead to slaughter. Be a free thinker and form your own opinion. Don't rely on what others tell you. You are just as bad if not worst than the people that believe the gov's spoon feed verison of whats going on. You are taking someone elses hate and adopting it as your own. Set the koolaid down.
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klhrevolutionist


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1124

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 04:10    Post subject: great  

The idea, the idea of sovereign government, is not new. Historically, the conqueror was the government. The Emperor, the King, the conqueror by whatever name, established his government by appointment and established laws by decree. Variations of this idea emerged over time to give the perception that the people had some say in the development of law.
Now remember when Colin Powell went to the United Nations and showed pictures of mobile biological weapons labs? In fact the world then and now
knows those pictures were fake! Where are the weapons of mass destruction? In case you forgot here is the site:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030205-1.html#44
And if you have ever wondered what was the downing street memo about?
I heard of it, but don't know about it?
Here you go:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/dsmemo.pdf

One thing you should know, I will hunt for the truth!
I hate being lied to!! As you should 2!!!
I don't support bush nor do I support any governement,
In about 15 years they will declassify documents.
And then it will be told that the government failed and was in fact the reason
hurricane katrina was so bad!


pizzagood-I try not to throw my belief system on others! But I do make them aware that I beleive, I can assure you of that.
However, I love talking politics and religion, and all that in between.
I don't get mad at what the people write. Unless they purposely call names and stuff. But in this topic no one has done that all we have done is express are knowledge or lack of. And have had a good chat, I don't mind it.
In fact I am glad that others joined in!!!
So, thanks for the small talk!!!

And so here is the feature presentation!!!

http://www.interviewwithgod.com/forgiven/highband.htm

_________________
Heaven is on the way, until then let's get the truth out!

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theelf


Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 55
Location: Temperance Hall, TN

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 08:16    Post subject:  

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Walt H


Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 216
Location: citizen of the world

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 12:40    Post subject:  

theelf wrote:
Having read thru this discussion I have only two questions.
1. Which of you have been thru a hurricane?
2, Which of you have been thru hurricane Katrina?

While I have not been through a hurricane, I have been through a tornado. In addition, my wife has been through hurricanes, and her family has been through a number of hurricanes, including being on the back end of Katrina.

I was also in the general vicinity of hurricane force winds while living in Washington state, when such winds ripped through western Washington and destroyed the Hood Canal Floating Bridge. And I was on the Washington coast when Mt. St. Helens blew.

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Walt

Now that you point it out to me, the answer seems painfully obvious.
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edoc


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 4369
Location: Southeast Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 15:10    Post subject:  

I really appreciate the technical fellowship of this list so I do not want to engage the politics here, though I spent 10 years in the trenches of politics at the national, state, and local level and understand the system well enough to have been paid to teach it at the college level.

I do want to clarify some issues re. emergency response because I am also trained and experienced in that area and have access to others even more well trained and experienced and there are claims being made in the political and public forum that are *flat out wrong on the facts*.

Fact: Law and policy *require* the Local government to request Federal assistance -- it is so because here in the USA we choose to limit the power of the central government.

Fact: Local means the Mayor and the Governor, neither of whom handled their responsibilities well, nor did they act promptly, yet they are the noisiest about blaming the Feds ... one wonders why.

Fact: The Feds pleaded with the Mayor & Governor to request Fed assistance sooner and they refused, preventing the Feds from getting critical equipment and manpower in place more quickly.

Fact: Due to a lack of leadership the Mayor's city of New Orleans has had a extraordinarily high 10-1 rate of murder and other crimes vs the national average. In NYC Mayor Guiliani did something about their crime problem, the Mayor of NO failed to do so and as a result his criminal population ran wild when the Local authorities fled the waters.

Fact: The Mayor had hundreds of buses he *could* have used to evacuate the poor, black and white alike, but he failed to do so. Those who died as a result are on his head, not the President's.

Fact: The Feds did pre-stage as best they could without Local requests and the President went ahead and declared Louisiana and Mississippi disaster areas so they could do more while the Mayor and Governor stood around indecisively.

Fact: Since at least the 80's officials in New Orleans have been warned of the flood risk from a wet (emphasis on quantity of water delivered to the region, not on the original storm surge or wind level alone) storm -- even a mere Tropical Storm that got stuck and dumped lots of rain could have cause this flooding. The Locals have refused to act decisively.

Fact: The key levee failure is reportedly a new one. It will be interesting to investigate what Local elements may have contributed to an inadequate levee. BTW: Typically such projects take 10+ years to plan and execute which means it was the Clinton Admin. (surprise!) that failed for 8 years to address the problem effectively in the critical time period necessary to prevent this flooding.

Fact: There has never been a more free and generous nation in the history of the world and it is sad when people attack the USA as though we are as evil as most major nations in history. The lies of people like MIchael Moore, George Soros, the Hollywood Left, the Democrat Left, Dan Rather, etc. have poisoned much of a generation here and around the world but lack any foundation in fact and are definitely not from God.

Fact: Let's get back to Puppy and let the dogs fight elsewhere on the Net. We will solve nothing here and could sacrifice the good will that has meant so much to the development of Puppy.

doc

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Home page: http://nevils-station.com
Don't google Search! http://duckduckgo.com
Puppy upup Raring 3992 & Lighthouse64-b602
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acklan


Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 45
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 15:25    Post subject:  

theelf wrote:
Having read thru this discussion I have only two questions.
1. Which of you have been thru a hurricane?
2, Which of you have been thru hurricane Katrina?


1 Several. Everyone that has hit south Louisiana since the 1960s

2 I'm still in Katrina. My dept deploys fire fighters every day up to 100 miles to aid other depts.

Were you curios or did you want to make a point?
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edoc


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 4369
Location: Southeast Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 15:28    Post subject:  

For those who are looking for practical ways to help the hurting in New Orleans and elsewhere in Louisiana, and in Mississippi, here are some good links to monitor the recovery and organizations on the ground making a real difference.

http://bibleseven.com/kr.html

I wish I could be there as I have relevant training -- cannot afford to not make a living -- cost overruns due to builder incompetence on our new house wiped out our savings and put us in debt. If one of us is not working while the other cares for the children we lose the house. It is *very* frustrating being stuck here!

I did sell some stuff from my Amateur Radio hobby and have sent funds to the soldiersangel.org and Florida Baptist Disaster funds. Not much but at least something more than lip service -- plus lots of prayers!

doc

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Thanks! David
Home page: http://nevils-station.com
Don't google Search! http://duckduckgo.com
Puppy upup Raring 3992 & Lighthouse64-b602
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acklan


Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 45
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 15:38    Post subject:  

I know how you feel(as far as the kids go). Several of us watch each others kid while the others are on duty. It' a real mess. Thanks for your thoughts.

John
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2005, 16:51    Post subject:  

Warning: harsh facts ahead.

edoc wrote:
as though we are as evil as most major nations in history
Go and explain that generosity to the civilains bombed in Irak. To the Cubans after all this years of sensless embargo. Maybe to the vietnamise civilians whose villages were burned just for the fun of it. Ok, lets not be that crude, lets just ask the UN officials that are still waiting for the money US has pledged for AIDS. Or maybe we could ask a Mexican to thank US for the generous payment for the Northern territories appropriated by USA. I'll stop because I don't think there is enough space in a post for more examples.

edoc wrote:
The lies of people like Michael Moore, George Soros, the Hollywood Left, the Democrat Left, Dan Rather, etc.
Like the Chilean left after the coup d'etat orchestrated by the CIA. Like all the people in countries where the USA helped impose dictators (Irak included).

History does not lie. Too bad that inside fortress america indoctrination is stronger than reality. Instead of clasifying facts as lies, I encourage you to study those facts as disgusting as they may be.

Trivia: Extra points to whoever names the american official that elegedly said "America does not have friends, only interests".

This is not a tirade against Americans. I've lived there, I like it. I find that there are many inteligent and well informed Americans but also that the american media has a very narrow view of the world.

This is to encourage you to go out of your borders for information. To learn to take the good with the bad while knowing the difference.
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