Puppy's Website: Discussion

[LOF]

...The problem is that I don't know if a hierarchy system is possible to do with Wikka. The category feature is the closest thing that I know of but this has proved very confusing to orchestrate. I also would suggest not going with a Drupal extension wiki as realistically the wiki needs to have the power of a dedicated content system. Would a change of wiki software be possible? I know that http://moinmo.in/ (used by Ubuntu wiki) is capable of doing subpages (e.g. .../Manual/French)

Bump.

What do people think of changing the wiki software if we start it over from scratch?

[HairyWill]

LOF
Are you talking about a manual wiki, other or everything combined into one wiki.

I am strongly against throwing away the existing content. There is over 800 pages there and this action gives a very bad signal to those that have put the most effort into it. These are also the people most likely to contribute to the new wiki. If we choose to move to a new wiki engine all the existing material should be transferred. Each page should be automatically marked as "Needs review for style and content", then we can edit and reorganise as time allows. Maybe it is possible to automatically add these pages to a category NeedsReview.

[WhoDo]

I am strongly against throwing away the existing content.

@LOF - I'm with Will on this one. There are also a myriad of links, HOWTO's and other stuff that is very important for understanding Puppy.

Either we should go for the upgraded version of Wikkawiki (our current wiki engine), or move the content to Drupal's wiki for better control and security. Either way, the content is indispensable, IMHO.

[Lobster]

go for the upgraded version of Wikkawiki (our current wiki engine)

I am already using an updated wakkawiki for tmxxine and the main difference is in better editing facilities.
It seems to be stable but the security updates for spam have not yet been added
http://docs.wikkawiki.org/WikkaReleaseNotes1164

A wakkawiki update is due this month - however I heard that one 4 months ago

[raffy]

Surprise, surprise - I saw it last night but could not believe it. Now am starting to believe. The Apache server at puppylinux.org has no version* number and it runs mod_php4 (version 4.3.11).

Oli can't get dokuwiki to work since yesterday, and am running out of solutions, so I looked again at phpinfo. AFAIK, servers should now be running PHP5, and dokuwiki coders know this.

I could be wrong, but I have used dokuwiki before in a netfirms site, without problems.

Possible solution: use another server that can run dokuwiki.

-------------------
* phpinfo says "Servage.net Cluster/(Enhanced Apache)" without giving any number.

[LOF]

I am strongly against throwing away the existing content.

@LOF - I'm with Will on this one. There are also a myriad of links, HOWTO's and other stuff that is very important for understanding Puppy.

Either we should go for the upgraded version of Wikkawiki (our current wiki engine), or move the content to Drupal's wiki for better control and security. Either way, the content is indispensable, IMHO.

Good point guys. Sorry I completely forgot about the need to change all links around and reformat everything when transferring content. I guess I just thought of copying and pasting. Soz.

Anyway, a quick question. Have people considered using the current wiki for the manual? If there are technical problems in setting up a new one, and we can somehow set access levels for users of a particular catergory on the existing wiki (can this be done?), then surely it would make sense to put manual development onto the existing structure.

Just throwing some ideas out there, feel free to shoot them down...

[Lobster]

html can be displayed on a wiki page by putting it between a set of double quotation marks

eg
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/AdditionalPrograms

[tombh]

Sorry to have not contributed for the past few days, I was discussing some stuff with raffy.

So anyway, Drupal, yes my favourite, the self-proclaimed provider of "community plumbing". It is the complete Content Management System, not really possessing a specific speciality, but excelling in adaptability whilst keeping all its functionality under one roof. With only Joomla to compete with it is widely considered to be the most powerful non-commercial CMS.

It literally has thousands of modules and a huge, friendly and helpful community following. The Internationalisation module (which I have some experience with) and the Localisation module might be interesting to Oli (there are even more translation modules that I have not looked at) -- let me know if you'd be interested in trying them out.

Its core functionality is all about providing means to manage and manipulate large amounts of varied content, pages, wikis, images, blogs and even custom content types. Also part of the core is the ability to finely control privileges on a per user and per role basis.

Drupal is perfectly built for the kind of project that we are talking about here, it's the kind of thing were, scattered throughout its code, there will be numerous gadgets, gizmos and features that cover eventualities that we could have never foreseen. I think it would also be a great investment for the future, because if we ever start thinking about adding new features to Puppy's web life, we can just consider adding new modules rather than a whole new piece of separate software that needs to be separately installed, themed, administrated, maintained and registered with unique usernames.

If anyone would like admin access to the Drupal backend of my proto-site, just PM me.

PS Oli's been sorted out with his test docuwiki installation, so no worries there.

[oli]

Thanks to Raffy, Tom and Eric I can test dokuwiki now. It is very easy to use and - if everything I need works - I would like to use it for the manual.

Perhaps Raffy and Eric can manage to run dokuwiki at the prospective website (www.puppylinux.org ?) too. Then there should be a login so that only the manual's maintainer can edit.

[tombh]

@Oli: What do you think about using Drupal? I can see that Dokuwiki is certainly capable of maintaining the manual, but from the wider point of view of the whole Puppy website there would be many advantages to just using one CMS.

From what I have read I can see that maintaining the manual will require 3 main areas:
Revision Control: If someone makes a change to a manual page the old version needs to be retained automatically. Drupal has this as standard.
Access Control: Only users that are trusted translators or maintainers should be able to edit manual pages. Again Drupal has this functionality as standard.
Notification Support: Whenever a manual page is updated, in ANY language, the maintainers of the other manual pages need to be notified. Drupal has a notification module. It also provides a comment feature for all content types, access to read/write these can be finely controlled.

There is also a clone module that may come in useful when upgrading the manual to a new version -- we can simply make a copy of the entire manual, then hide it from public view and edit it privately until it is ready, then simply switch the manuals around.

I appreciate that this maybe a compromise for you, learning something which might be quite new to you. However, I mention it because I think it would be worth considering from the broader perspective of the other features that we need to integrate now (ie, the general WIKI and main website) and in the future.

[mcewanw]

I've never worked with drupal, but I do know it is taking over from commercial content management systems all over the place. Even the local polytechnic has decided to move all its content over to a drupal system (except for online learning, for which they are using the Australian created Moodle instead of Blackboard, which they used to use).

If tombh is offering to set up a Drupal site, I think it would be daft not to go with that. Anyway, its a useful skill to learn as far as I'm told; its expanding in use so rapidly that a former colleague tells me that there is lots of work in that area.

[Caneri]

Hi William and all,

Yes, Drupal is the way to go for me. I plan on moving to Drupal for all of puppylinux.ca in the not too distant future.

With Tom's help and his knowledge of Drupal this should be a fairly smooth process.

You never know but maybe Tom can earn some real money in the future from the test runs that will be done here.

Best,
Eric

[oli]

I had a look at Drupal, especially at "How to make a manual". If I understood right you have to use html-code to format the content. This is a disadvantage in comparison to dokuwiki because content and layout is not seperated. Dokuwiki seems to be much easier to use.

@ Tombh, Caneri, Raffy: I've made some test pages in dokuwiki (you know the URL), simulating two languages and (at one page of the manual) two versions. Pictures are still missing.

[tombh]

@Oli
I was wanting to know that you understand that we're considering Drupal for the whole website not just the manuals. Dokuwiki is good for the manuals but not so good for the other aspects of the website (ie, main website and general WIKI).

In order to give these 3 aspects a consistent design it will be easier for me if they all use the same CMS. It will also be easier for users and maintainers because they will only have one username and password.

I understand that Drupal will be harder to use at first, but is it so much harder that we seriously need to consider using separate CMSs?

PS. You don't have to use HTML to format the content in Drupal, it is just an option. It has the same WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) editor as Dokuwiki -- see the TINYMCE editor in action here.

[Aitch]

Hi tombh

Following on from nathan's post I just posted elsewhere about spam assassin, though it's not my field, however

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 439#183439

and the altering of pizzasgood's post here

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 9388da2335

are examples of problems of relying on badly set up filters

perhaps you should invite suggestions for dealing with via*** type spam advertising getting through, as alienjeff is going to explode if it transfers to the new site after all your efforts

Thanks

Aitch

[raffy]

oli:

@ Tombh, Caneri, Raffy: I've made some test pages in dokuwiki (you know the URL), simulating two languages and (at one page of the manual) two versions.

Thanks, Oli. Dokuwiki is already running with the same admin account in another site (will PM you the URL).

Tom and Caneri, I don't know the URL and access code of the test site, so you can just send me the gzipped copy of the test pages. As to whether we will use Drupal or Dokuwiki, I guess both will still have to be learned by most contributors. However, I tend to support Oli's concern for simplicity.

Oli, once you are able to populate the site with content (is it English first?), we can ask Barry to direct the DNS of puppylinux.org to the new site. Please give the signal.

[oli]

I can start creating the manual sites next week. But before I do I would be sure which site and which wiki is chosen. I don't want to make the work twice. What is the result of the discussion, what is the "real" future website?

I think someone (perhaps Tom?) should structure this project. First he should sum up the actual state of the project, what is already decided and what decisions have to make next? Who are the maintainers for which part of the website? When do we want to launch the new site? What content is a must at the date of starting?

At the moment the project is a collection of ideas and a preparative discussion and some testing. That is good, but it has to be changed into a real project.

[Caneri]

@Oli,

Yes agreed Oli. Raffy has the dokuwiki at his domain and we can import your work here as far as I know.

I have one other point to add....If anyone can spare a few quid...maybe a small donation to Tom...it would be a helpful addition with all Tom's work so far. Hey just a thought but sometimes a few bob goes a long way.

My request is my own request...not from Tom....so I hope he isn't angry with my post.

Eric

[WhoDo]

I think someone (perhaps Tom?) should structure this project. First he should sum up the actual state of the project, what is already decided and what decisions have to make next? Who are the maintainers for which part of the website? When do we want to launch the new site? What content is a must at the date of starting?

At the moment the project is a collection of ideas and a preparative discussion and some testing. That is good, but it has to be changed into a real project.

Agreed. And since raffy originally invited me to lead the project, your comments lead me to think it is now time for me to make some decisions.

1. If we are agreed that Servage doesn't have the supporting bandwidth we need, and subject to Eric's agreement, I'd like to see Barry point the puppylinux.org DNS to Eric's server address. Although this is point 1, and is rightly the first decision to be made, it comes well down the list for priority of action.

2. If we are agreed that we don't want to face similar problems of lack of clarity and integration at the new site as we currently suffer with the old, I'd like to see Drupal be the integrated environment upon which the rest of Puppy's face is built. Evidence is that it has such popularity that finding future maintainers shouldn't be an issue.

3. If we are agreed that Drupal makes sense for Puppy, then we have the ability to assign editorial permissions to specific maintainers for oli's manuals. That helps to ensure the ongoing integrity of the manuals.

4. If we are agreed that the job oli and his cohorts are doing is indispensable to Puppy's attempts at being user friendly, I'd like oli to continue as the official Puppy leader of the documentation project.

5. If we are agreed that we like the way Tom and prit1 are working with our web development effort, I'd like them to begin work on a Beta site, so we can give a final ok to the look-and-feel aspect as well as overall functionality.

6. If we are agreed that a Beta site is our next logical step, that site MUST include a section for the manuals so oli and his crew can start porting their material. It must also contain a wiki section, since we are already in agreement that the wiki is the beating heart of Puppy.

7. If we are agreed that we do not want to lose the valuable content on the wakkawiki that Lobster maintains, I'd like to see our web developers and Lobster get together to do some test ports to the Beta site, so we can be certain we will be able to preserve the vast body of work that our diligent wiki maintainers have created.

8. I originally set Easter, being the time of rebirth, as the logical time for us to move on to the next stage of the rebirth of Puppy's web presence. Easter is upon us and so, if we are agreed that there has been enough discussion over the preliminary issues, I'd like to see us move into the Beta phase from now.

That certainly doesn't mean that discussion ends. It just means that we have enough material to move into creating a Beta test site. I will continue to communicate with tombh, prit1, caneri, Lobster and raffy by PM on any issues they feel may need clarification. If I deem any single issue is important enough to require community input, I will recommend the party raising it opens the matter for discussion here before any decision is made.

Onward and upward, gang!

[tombh]

@Eric: I of course appreciate your sentiments but I'd far rather people added to my Colour Memories Database than my bank balance.

@WhoDo: I'm just off to bed! Let not the brevity of my post reflect the significance of your post.