Puppy's Website: Discussion

[Aitch]

@tombh

Followong WhoDo's excellent response above, may I please add my supportive voice
I didn't see mcewanw's post either but had had an exchange with him elsewhere, which showed that he was not the only one feeling frustrated
I sent him a supportive PM and wished him well, as his own project for the blind was very good also
AJ is/was about to blow a gasket as well, over this spamming outbreak
I even posted an alert to BarryK about this
The Morale of a team is, as you rightly say, both dependant on good clear open communication, and a sense of common purpose
I believe, coincidentally this was a topic of a talk on mindfulness by Jon Kabat Zinn posted by Lobster, here

http://www.43folders.com/2008/03/17/falling-awake

And would just like to say that you are held in great esteem & admiration for the stirling work you demonstrated with your Wobbly project, which is part of the reason why people 'selected' you for this project, if you don't mind me putting it that way. You are a 'victim' of your own success
though victim is not really appropriate for you
Please don't lose heart Tombh, or any of the rest of the team who are working on this

This should be one of those projects where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts

I would also say that having done complex community projects, where admittedly having the people face to face helped, one of the most common causes of breakdown, apart from communication, is 'burn-out' where too much is either taken on, not off-loading/delegating tasks, & burdening, people not having the same agenda/timescale urgency/need
If anyone gets a sense of that - share it , ask for support, it's not a weakness, it's just contributory, but can seriously affect the 'flow'

Just from reading the posts here, there clearly is the best opportunity for this to work as this is the most positive a group so far assembled

Good luck all of you, & if there's anything you need
Put it out, puppy's strength IS its community [with a bit of help from BarryK, of course]

Aitch

[raffy]

A new host should be fine, as neither servage nor netfirms appears adequate for what we wanted to achieve (a tightly knit web presence using cutting-edge CMS/wiki).

For this, I would recommend bluehostDOTcom, with the newer versions of Apache (2.2.8, w SSL), PHP (5.2.5) and MySQL (5.0.45) installed in its servers. Sorry, but I can't offer to contribute for this at the moment.

Much of the flurry in recent days is about finding a free but adequate host for what we want, while discussing at the same time what can be done. Some read politics from it, but it's really more about getting things done despite limited time and resources. If you find this hard to believe, wait until you hear this story about migrating the wiki from goosee to servage: In summer 2005, we were transferring the wikkawiki from gooseeDOTcom to puppylinux.org, but we encountered a MySQL version problem - servage.net has a lower version, so we can't get the wiki database uploaded. What did Barry do? He hand-copied every page of the wiki just to get the work done soonest! He did that while the rest of us were still discussing the alternatives.

With that said, the only politics that I know of here is that of hard work. Take it from Barry's example.

[Caneri]

Hi all,

Well I think I found one good reason to get away from servage.net.

Just google servage.net+porn

To my horror I found a child pron link...nuf said me thinks.

EDIT: The Drupal site strongly recommends people to choose a host that does not host pron....they say the pron sites seem to filter to all the accounts in the same cluster of sites...makes sense to me.

Best,Eric

[Aitch]

@raffy

your choice of site requires funding

Is it not possible to use a free site like this

http://www.000webhost.com/?page=features

and although they use cpanel, isn't it possible using the link on this page to instal drupal for free, too

http://schogini.us/wordpress/index.php/ ... mysql-cms/

a mate of mine, who has thousands of sites uses godaddy, as he says they are good value for money,
but he reckons with all the free ones there's a catch, normally forced ads

If we're going to go fee paying, can I suggest:-

http://www.solarenergyhost.com/

since we're obviously a forward looking bunch of souls

Perhaps tombh already has a host in mind?

aitch

[Rhino]

I use godaddy and it is fairly inexpensive. I have had my site with them for a couple of years and haven't had any problems. They make it easy with an automated drupal installation (not that it can't be done manually). I set up a moodle server with them and it is very easy to manage with all of their hosting utilities. I run a low traffic site, so I'm not sure how something like the puppy web presence would do there or how much bandwidth we would need.

I'm not pushing godaddy by any means, just offering up my experience with them.

Rhino

[raffy]

Yes, puppylinux.org is a high-traffic site. It will be useful to look for hosted bandwidth in the neighborhood of what servage.net offers, i.e., 5,010 GB per month.

[Caneri]

Hi Raffy,

Drupal.org has a section on web hosts.

Some of the ones they mention may be interesting.

Best,
Eric

[tombh]

@oli: Thankyou, I think we're clear know on the Drupal/Dokuwiki issue.

Also if I understand you right, what you're saying is that you would like to know exactly who the website team will be? Therefore, admins, developers, maintainers, contributors, etc. And that you'd like to know before we push on with the manual, because if there are not enough people involved then there is chance that the website will not work and that your work will go to waste?

Okay, well that's a very good question. With regard to Drupal I know that it has been mentioned that people need to know PHP. I think that would certainly be a bonus but Drupal certainly doesn't require that. I would consider someone knowledgeable of Drupal if they had some familiarity with some of the resources provided here. Those are a collection of user guides and manuals. Essential admin tasks that spring to mind are;

*user control, assigning roles, banning, etc
*checking the logs
*installing, activating and disabling modules

I'm sure there are a number of people capable and willing to learn these tasks. I'm sure raffy, WhoDo and Lobster (the current WIKI admin) will pick these things up very quickly. I'm not sure how involved with admin prit1 wants to be but he is a competent PHP programmer and has a good grounding in Drupal.

Regarding which web host
From what I can see we need the following;
*PHP5
*MySQL5
*clean urls
*customisable 404 document
*regular backups

I say go with Hostgator, I had a look at them when Barry was thinking about using them, they have excellent reviews and provide everything in this list. Their $4.95 per month package will be adequate. Does Puppy have an official treasurer? Those who are willing to contribute anything, even just $1 per month should indicate anonymously to the treasurer.

PS. Much appreciated Aitch.

[WhoDo]

I say go with Hostgator, I had a look at them when Barry was thinking about using them, they have excellent reviews and provide everything in this list. Their $4.95 per month package will be adequate. Does Puppy have an official treasurer? Those who are willing to contribute anything, even just $1 per month should indicate anonymously to the treasurer.

Ok, problem solved. If necessary, I will pay the $US4.95 per month myself. That's not bravado, it's a genuine offer. I haven't yet spent a single cent in support of Puppy, because financially I haven't been in a position to do so. Now I am, and this is as good a project as any. If we need to go up to the $US7.95 per month level for bandwidth, so be it. I'm still willing to go the whole hog if necessary.

Admins? Barry, raffy, tombh and Lobster at the top levels. I know enough about CMS/LMS management on a LAMP platform to assist, so I'll offer my support to the team as well. prit1 if he wants to be involved, especially after his hard work on the repository search feature. Flash is a keen supporter and may also be interested. Rhino has already offered to maintain the video tutorials, and has said he'd help wherever else we needed. oli is the logical choice for leading the team managing and maintaining the manuals area. Lobster should be leading his small but dedicated team on the wiki section.

This is NOT some half-hearted attempt at change we're dealing with here. These are all committed, talented long-term Puppy supporters. We have more resources in this group than many of the bigger distros, so we are equipped for success. The effort will NOT be wasted, even if I have to personally devote every spare moment to doing stuff myself to ensure it succeeds. I'm sure that won't be necessary, but you can gauge my determination from that statement. Let's do it, people!

[WhoDo]

A new host should be fine, as neither servage nor netfirms appears adequate for what we wanted to achieve (a tightly knit web presence using cutting-edge CMS/wiki).

For this, I would recommend bluehostDOTcom, with the newer versions of Apache (2.2.8, w SSL), PHP (5.2.5) and MySQL (5.0.45) installed in its servers. Sorry, but I can't offer to contribute for this at the moment.

@raffy
I've had a quick look at BluehostDOTcom and their package looks fantastic value for $US6.95 per month. Perhaps tombh could have a quick look there, too, and do a developers comparison. Either way, I'm happy to front the cost of $US7.95 per month at Hostgator, or $US6.95 per month at BluehostDOTcom.

@tombh
Can you check out what's on offer at BluehostDOTcom from a developer's perspective. They seem to be offering much greater bandwidth and storage capacity at a lower monthly rate. As long as that's not at some cost in terms of guaranteed uptime or support levels it might be worth the look. If not, then I remain willing to pay for Hostgator's intermediate level too. Let me know what you think.

Cheers

[Caneri]

Hi Warren and all,

Well shiver me timbers and blow me down...thar she blows.(This is for Tom as he lives where the pirates came from..lol..coorrr)

Well done gentlemen.

Best,
Eric

[raffy]

Hostgator's next-higher level plan compares with bluehost features, but it is more costly. They use the same industry interface, Cpanel.

I've gotten an account with bluehost in the hope that I can host multiple domains there. I can, but the name of the main account still shows. Netfirms' multiple-domain feature does what I want, so I returned to netfirms after spending money on bluehost.

Other than that, bluehost service is excellent, and it has Fast CGI and even tidy.

With bluehost, we can offer to host other domains (like Oli's manual site at puppy-linux.info, for example). And the main domain name, puppylinux.org, will still show in the URL (redirected, like to manual.puppylinux.org).

[BarryK]

I've 99% decided to go with hostgator. I haven't signed up yet as I'm working on my web pages, getting them ready.

Note,
Someone just sent me an email, telling me that puppylinux.org is down. I just tried, get an empty page.

Note2,
don't forget that the servage account for puppylinux.org is paid-up until about 2013. We have it for a long time, so should keep using it for something.

[WhoDo]

Someone just sent me an email, telling me that puppylinux.org is down. I just tried, get an empty page.

Just checked in and it's back up again, this time without the garbage in the header. Someone over at servage.net must have decided to have a clean out. That's good news for us.

don't forget that the servage account for puppylinux.org is paid-up until about 2013. We have it for a long time, so should keep using it for something.

Indeed, but for what? Maybe it could be our own personal image host, like a tinypic.com but for Puppy only? That would sure take the pressure of John's forum. The gallery module in PHPFusion works, but we might be able to find something better and easier to maintain.

I don't know how good is servage.net's download speed, but maybe it could also be a backup repository for our dotpet, dotpup and unleashed packages, too? Remember when ibiblio.org went down and we were stuck without any access? That would at least give us a second basket for our Easter eggs!

Any other ideas?

[Pizzasgood]

My thinking is either fight servage tooth and claw to get actual money for all that time (which may be difficult since you didn't actually pay for it), or to use it for mostly unimportant things and to keep local md5sums of the entire account so you can easily check to see when things are tampered with. Perhaps diligent checking over time would discourage people from messing with it. If you have SSH with them, you could set up a program to upload an md5sum file (overwriting any already existing one), log in over SSH, check all the files, set some kind of flag for bad ones, log out, then upload fresh copies of those. It would need to be run at random times at least once a day so the hacker couldn't anticipate it and take measures to trick it, and make CERTAIN you do all uploading from the local machine. Obviously, logging into your machine from a compromised location is a Bad Thing...

But I just came up with all that in a couple seconds, so it probably has a bunch of flaws. But I have some ice cream waiting on me, so I'd better get going...


EDIT: Image host, yes that's a good idea. A file host would also work as long as people were strongly warned to verify the MD5 sums from an alternate source to guard against trojans. Even if the above method were implemented hourly.

[raffy]

If we go either host (hostgator, bluehost), we will be given a domain, like

servername.hostname.com/~puppylinux

We develop the site then point the puppylinux.org DNS to it when ready. If WhoDo starts the purchase now, then we'll have achieved something this Easter. (You'll be surprised how fast these guys respond to customers.) As to other people contributing funds for the website, please send contributions to Barry's Paypal account.

Re: puppylinux.org - the nasty links are there again - will check how much damage was done. I guess it's an interjection that we really have to move hosting. (Addition: The index file was completely replaced by the crap links - someone must be reading this thread and trying to have some weird fun.)

Yes, our servage hosting includes pupweb.org, so we can still keep using the site even if puppylinux.org is moved to another host.

Addition: I will no longer upgrade the wiki (and risk corrupting parts of it) since its contents will be ported soon to the new site.

[WhoDo]

If WhoDo starts the purchase now, then we'll have achieved something this Easter. (You'll be surprised how fast these guys respond to customers.)

Done, raffy. Details included in a PM to you this afternoon my time. I have told them we will use our own domain name in puppylinux.org and simply re-point our name servers, so we'll see what access they send me.

[raffy]

Thanks, Warren (Whodo). Hostgator.com is puppylinux.org's new home.

It will take some time before the actual transfer of puppylinux.org, and Tom, Oli and other editors will now start working on the new site. Tom has the Cpanel details, and I suggest that he PMs a few helpers and they use the temporary URL (and possibly a Drupal forum in it) to coordinate while preparing the new site.

Happy Easter, everyone!

[Aitch]

Nice work, guys

Onward & upward!

as WhoDo said elsewhere,

Easter is a time of new beginnings

Happy Easter, everyone

aitch

[klu9]

Note2,
don't forget that the servage account for puppylinux.org is paid-up until about 2013. We have it for a long time, so should keep using it for something.

My suggestion: turn it into a repo for ISOs, SFSs, big dotpups/dotpets, manuals... but NOT an http/ftp repo.

Make it a BitTorrent "seedbox" instead, permanently sharing Puppy files via BitTorrent.

Why?

1. Puppy needs a constant BitTorrent source for files; maybe the Servage account could be it.

2. Servage=Pwnage

BitTorrent clients automatically hash pieces of a file and fix corruption.

A regular HTTP/FTP repo on Servage might be giving people corrupt files (which might require redownloading 100% of the file all over again after finding out what the problem is and then finding a reliable alternative server to use).

But if the files somehow get corrupted on a Bittorrent seedbox, the downloader's BitTorrent clients will simply ignore/fix the corrupted pieces.

Alternative/Workaround

If a BitTorrent repo/seedbox is not permissible with that Servage account, then maybe there's still a way: metalinks with MD5 / SHA1 hashes included, and Servage URLs among other download URLs.

People don't get to access the Servage repo directly, but only through metalinks that include anti-corruption info, thereby providing a layer protection against future Servage pwnage.

By including several download URLS in the metalink, the download client can always get uncorrupted pieces from those alternative sources.