Puppy's Website: Discussion

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Pizzasgood
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#31 Post by Pizzasgood »

Using this feature means a page modification for all Puppy sites
Not if you used frames. Then you could have the new site incorporate all the others without changing them at all. Plus, that way people who want nothing to do with it can just keep using the addresses to the actual forum/blog/wiki/whatever and not get a frame shoved down their throats, and without needing cookies to "save" the setting.

On the down side, using a frame would mean you get that much less viewing space, since you can't just scroll away from them. I didn't work with frames for very long back in my web-coding days, so I don't know if it's possible to set up a chunk of javascript to 'collapse' a frame by resizing it. If it is, that would be cool. I know that the frames can be set as manually resizable as long as you don't make the border invisible. That's a little ugly though, unless you can apply style-sheets to them. I got into CSS after I stopped using frames so I'm not sure if you can do that. I know you can use CSS on forms and such, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyways, as a worst case scenario there could be a link on the upper part that sends you to the actual page without using frames, like Google Images uses. And every browser I've ever used also supports right-clicking and choosing "view this frame only" or some such thing.
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LOF
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#32 Post by LOF »

Did I miss the code by LOF?
Nope. That was only a mockup. If people want then I'll code something nicer as a 100px frame or so. Frames are the bane of many web developers though and are discouraged by many. But it seems that this might be the best way of going about it.

Frame code would probably be as follows:

Code: Select all

<html>
 <frameset rows="100px,100%">
   <frame src="frame1.htm">
   <frame src="frame2.htm">
 </frameset>
</html>
Obviously a homepage like tombh's site would still be required for everything to come back to.

To add my own personal experience, I found Puppy hard to get info on to start with, as it was impossible to keep up with the latest stuff here when only really using the wiki. Some huge glorified rss feed would be great to keep up with the latest news and announcements (think LatestNews wiki page on steroids).

@ttuuxxx - the fedora menu is very aesthetic and minimalistic but would work better as a top menu rather than a side one. We all much prefer scrolling down to scrolling left and right. Great design though.
Cheers,

[b]LOF[/b]
:D

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headfound
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#33 Post by headfound »

There is a CSS frame example right here -

http://www.cssplay.co.uk/layouts/frame.html

each page must have the frame coded to work though. Is there any way of getting a php script to grab (for example) the pages called from this forum and dynamically sticking the css on top so the end user just clicks the forum link and its done?
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Lobster
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#34 Post by Lobster »

One way to set up a news type environment (similar to digg.com)
is Pligg
http://www.pligg.com/

It is easy to set up (even I have done it) 8)
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SirDuncan
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#35 Post by SirDuncan »

Frames would not necessarily be required to achieve that effect without page modification. PHP should be able to do it, and you could still scroll down and away from it. The trick would be writing the code that changes all of the links on included pages to point to the PHP version of the page instead of the normal one. I'm afraid my knowledge of PHP is not great enough to do that without some research.

I personally think that we need to move all of the main Puppy pages to a central server so that we have an easier time dealing with security. While we are at it, we might as well re-do the sites and combine them. I guess I prefer to stick with what Tom is already doing.
Be brave that God may help thee, speak the truth even if it leads to death, and safeguard the helpless. - A knight's oath

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Pizzasgood
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#36 Post by Pizzasgood »

Frames are the bane of many web developers though and are discouraged by many.
I didn't mind them as a developer, but I generally hate them as a user. Thus why I eventually stopped using them.
Frames would not necessarily be required to achieve that effect without page modification. PHP should be able to do it, and you could still scroll down and away from it. The trick would be writing the code that changes all of the links on included pages to point to the PHP version of the page instead of the normal one. I'm afraid my knowledge of PHP is not great enough to do that without some research.
I don't know if that would work with the forum very well though. I think it would be fine for viewing it as a guest, but logging in and posting would probably be tricky.

Of course, I have no problem with keeping the forum separate. I prefer it this way really. If I were in charge of all of this, I'd just add a link up at the top that points to the main page, and otherwise leave the forum how and where it is now.
I personally think that we need to move all of the main Puppy pages to a central server so that we have an easier time dealing with security. While we are at it, we might as well re-do the sites and combine them. I guess I prefer to stick with what Tom is already doing.
I agree with that with the exception of the forum and maybe Barry's blog. You don't want your eggs scattered willy-nilly, but you don't want them all in the same basket either. Besides the security hazard, having a bunch of eggs in one basket makes that basket pretty heavy.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
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SirDuncan
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#37 Post by SirDuncan »

Pizzasgood wrote:I don't know if that would work with the forum very well though. I think it would be fine for viewing it as a guest, but logging in and posting would probably be tricky.
I wasn't even considering the forum. That would be a real trick.
Pizzasgood wrote:I agree with that with the exception of the forum and maybe Barry's blog. You don't want your eggs scattered willy-nilly, but you don't want them all in the same basket either. Besides the security hazard, having a bunch of eggs in one basket makes that basket pretty heavy.
I definitely agree about the forum. Besides the too-many-eggs issue, moving the forum would be a major task, and we haven't had any major security issues here. Why mess with what works?

As for the blog, even if it doesn't get combined into the site, it needs moved to a different host. Servage appears to completely compromised, and they aren't doing anything about it.
Be brave that God may help thee, speak the truth even if it leads to death, and safeguard the helpless. - A knight's oath

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HairyWill
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#38 Post by HairyWill »

Before you talk about moving (or not) Barry's blog, website, wiki and John Murga's forum it might make sense to talk to them.

Barry seems to have had a lot of trouble with blogs over the past year. If someone was to offer to maintain a blog for me I would be grateful (as long as I maintained full control)
Will
contribute: [url=http://www.puppylinux.org]community website[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/6c3nm6]screenshots[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/6j2gbz]puplets[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/57gykn]wiki[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/5dgr83]rss[/url]

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tombh
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#39 Post by tombh »

So to summarise there seems to be some consensus concerning both security and continuity.

Security
In terms of improved security we have been kindly offered the option of Caneri's server.

Continuity
The main sites involved are the; main website, wiki, developer's blog, forum and manual. In terms of continuity we have a number of options --

(1)Frames
PROS:
*simplicity
*easy maintenance
*no need to move great lumps of data about the internet
*freedom of choice for users
CONS:
*frames unreliably integrate with browser history and bookmarking.

(2)PHP-ification (okay I made that word up!)
BRIEF: This basically involves having a centralised CSS design somewhere on the internet. Either, a site is programmed to get this design from a centralised location OR the centralised location is programmed to get the contents of the individual site and output it as part of its own. The reasoning behind a centralised design is that if ever a change was made to the design it would take effect instantly across all the sites without any extra work.
PROS:
*rich-man's frames -- i.e. many of the advantages of frames but without the inherent cons
*from a design perspective there would be more scope for a tighter and cleaner stylistic integration.
CONS:
*each site would need some coding thus requiring the consent and involvement of each maintainer
*users would effectively be loading two websites incurring compound download delays

(3)All sites on one server
PROS:
*frames for the gods ;) -- i.e. all the advantages of frames and PHP-ification but without either of their inherent cons.
*Not only would all the sites be under the control of one server but they could also be under the control of one CMS, one user database and one cookie/session.
CONS:
*all our eggs in one basket
*requires not only significant individual commitments but also significant commitments to work together
*large amounts of data would need to be moved across the internet and some of it would need to be manipulated (eg Wikka Wiki to Drupal 5)

Postscript
Firstly, I feel that the Developer's Blog is a seperate issue (see this post in the beginning of the thread) and should not be considered in our plans for continuity unless explicitly directed by Barry himself.

Also I think that the forum is really a whole other task in itself, certainly a very important and feasible one, but one that I don't think would be sensible to commit to at the moment. As Hairywill suggests, first we would need to discuss it with John Murga and then we would need someone who was willing to give the task individual attention -- which I might be able to do one day, but not at the same time as making a Puppy website. However, just to wet your appetite, there is a well-maintained phpBB module for Drupal.

My own personal preference for the continuity solution is number (3). The reason for this is not so much because of the technologies involved but because it is fundamentally reliant on a deeper meaning of continuity -- namely that continuity is a reflection of the willingness of the community to work together. For me it is this, above anything else, that will bring continuity to Puppy's web presence. In this way I'm sure we'll hardly even have to think about continuity as it will just happen by itself.

I also just want to make a brief point about the proto-site that I made. Even though it is up there on the verge of becoming a fully functional site, I'm willing to start over -- if that's what's needed! When I first started thinking about this project I wanted to be very careful about how I approached it, on the one had I knew that the community had to be involved, yet on the other I understood that if I was to offer my services I needed to prove that I was not merely in the realms of great ideas, I needed to have something to prove that I meant, and could do, business! So that's why the proto-site is there, it is just as much an example of what is possible as a token and expression of my willingness and enthusiasm.

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HairyWill
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#40 Post by HairyWill »

I think this project needs doing but the social/organisational issues are just as hard as the technical ones

Here is a list of a number of puppy websites/repositories (apologies to anyone I have missed)

http://www.dotpups.de
http://www.puppylinux.ca
http://www.puppy-linux.info
http://rhinoweb.us
http://www.puppylinux.net
http://puptrix.org
http://www.murga-linux.com
http://home.no.net/zigbert/downloaders
http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/wmd04r/puppy
http://www.giovelug.org
http://www.puppylover.netsons.org
http://www.puptrix.org
http://www.grafpup.org
http://www.minipc.org
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/grafpup-77
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/puppy-71
http://www.erikveen.dds.nl/qemupuppy
http://openlab.jp/puppylinux
http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com
http://www.moulinier.net
http://www.lin-web.be
http://hi.baidu.com/puppylinux
http://e-pup.5d6d.com
http://www.hacao.com
http://digilander.libero.it/puppylinuxitalia
http://www.tmxxine.com
http://www.puppyrus.forum24.ru
http://www.ecomoney.eu
http://edupup.pieroni.biz
http://fabionicolascabrera.es.tl
http://www.puppyrus.ru
http://www.ecomoney.co.uk
http://micro-hard.homelinux.net/puppy
http://www.ttuuxxx.com

under Barry's control I think
http://puppylinux.com
http://puppylinux.org
ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/puppylinux/

dead sites which probably still get hits
how much valuable information was lost with these
http://www.puppyos.com
http://www.zen45800.zen.co.uk/puppy3/index.htm

If one/you/we want a single portal the people maintaining many of these sites need to be asked very nicely to stop compounding the perceived problem. These contributers to the global understanding of the monster that is puppy might find it actually less effort to maintain their contribution if it was in a shared space. That being said they will also have to share editorial control of their content, free and independent thinkers as we are this may not come easily.

we need
- stable easy to navigate repositories preferably multiple identical (load balanced) mirrors. Ideally these will allow uploads from a number of individuals who have earned their stripes and are willing to take responsibility for any software they contribute (maintainer if you will)

- wiki space that we all feel happy to contribute to

- easy to understand, conflict free, version relevant documentation that can be easily maintained and rolled forward to the next version without losing the last

- It would also be nice to be able to hold our own repository for source code. Currently their are large amounts of original source and programs stored as attachments to the murga-forum. Should the forum disappear overnight the community would have great fun reassembling it. John has done an excellent job of providing this forum, I have no reason to believe anything catastrophic will happen to it, it just strikes me as poor contingency planning.

Who will hold the keys? I don't trust anybody else but me ;-)

Sorry for the indigestibly long post, Merry Christmas, peace on earth and goodwill to all (wo)men.
Last edited by HairyWill on Fri 14 Mar 2008, 05:55, edited 3 times in total.
Will
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Caneri
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#41 Post by Caneri »

Hi Will et al,

I for one will be more than happy to support a single interface for Puppy.

I also will be more than happy to go back to my original project mission statement...to provide space and bandwidth for the community and let developers promote and share their work from puppylinux.ca. My web site can disappear in a heartbeat and be replaced with the common interface..no worries for me on that.

A skilled administrator is also my main need at the moment to transform the work that is already here with me into a better and more informative site..aka download directories need to be setup with better info here with dates and size etc.

I hope this setup can become a reality soon as spring is coming to my neck of the world and I'll need to get back to work.

As I consider puppylinux.ca a permanent server for the community (thus the name) I have taken on the costs and will continue to cover the costs as long as I am able...(just so you all know)...now I just need someone that is a Linux guru to handle the stuff I'm a tad uneducated about.

EDIT: added from Will's post,
"we need
- stable easy to navigate repositories preferably multiple identical (load balanced) mirrors. Ideally these will allow uploads from a number of individuals who have earned their stripes and are willing to take responsibility for any software they contribute (maintainer if you will)"

exactly!

Best,
Eric
[color=darkred][i]Be not afraid to grow slowly, only be afraid of standing still.[/i]
Chinese Proverb[/color]

klu9
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#42 Post by klu9 »

if anyone's putting together a list of puppy-related sites, I've got a bunch of them at the bottom of this page:
http://klu9.50webs.com/puppystuff.html
[size=75]- Remember: it's a [url=http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyLinuxMainPage]wiki[/url]. You can contribute too! :D
- Puplet creators, see [url=http://puppylinux.org/wikka/DistributingYourPuplet]DistributingYourPuplet[/url][/size]

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#43 Post by ttuuxxx »

klu9 wrote:if anyone's putting together a list of puppy-related sites, I've got a bunch of them at the bottom of this page:
http://klu9.50webs.com/puppystuff.html
ummm you left mine out www.ttuuxxx.com
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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archive

#44 Post by raffy »

This is an interesting archive of everything Puppy Linux:
http://micro-hard.homelinux.net/puppy/
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].

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#45 Post by Todd »

One of the wonderful things about Puppy is how eclectic it is. There seems to be a lot of talk about “organizing

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darrelljon
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#46 Post by darrelljon »

I kind of agree with what I think is HairyWill's sentiment. Anyone should be free to make their own website, but beginners should have one comprehensive semi-official (Puppy Foundation) website to start to find everything.

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WhoDo
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#47 Post by WhoDo »

tombh wrote:(2)PHP-ification (okay I made that word up!)
BRIEF: This basically involves having a centralised CSS design somewhere on the internet. Either, a site is programmed to get this design from a centralised location OR the centralised location is programmed to get the contents of the individual site and output it as part of its own. The reasoning behind a centralised design is that if ever a change was made to the design it would take effect instantly across all the sites without any extra work.
PROS:
*rich-man's frames -- i.e. many of the advantages of frames but without the inherent cons
*from a design perspective there would be more scope for a tighter and cleaner stylistic integration.
CONS:
*each site would need some coding thus requiring the consent and involvement of each maintainer
*users would effectively be loading two websites incurring compound download delays
This would be my preference. Those who want a link to their site from the Puppy Community Web would be invited to run the css code on their site. Those who don't might just get a mention on the other links page. This way we end up with the best of all worlds - a consistent look and feel without moving data all over the net and without usurping people's rights/desires to run their own sites.

The loading of "two sites" is only going to be an overhead while visiting those other links, and only for as long as you do that. It isn't that much really - a header from us and a page from them is all. I see this as a way to give everyone something of what they want - a central Puppy home with connections and links to all the important places from the one Puppy Portal, but allowing individuals to maintain their own presence and flavor when accessed separately.

Just my $AUD0.02c worth
(Today that's worth about $US0.96c but I can remember when it was only worth about $US0.65c! What a change!).
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tombh
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#48 Post by tombh »

Woh! Hold yer horses there!

I intended my 3 options to really only apply to the core puppy sites -- ie main website, wiki, manual and forum. I'm certainly not in favour of bringing design continuity to the growing list of sites in HairyWill's post.

Not wanting to speak for HairyWill, but I don't think that's exactly what he means either. For me the gist of his point was in his bullet points --
HairWill wrote: we need
- stable easy to navigate repositories preferably multiple identical (load balanced) mirrors. Ideally these will allow uploads from a number of individuals who have earned their stripes and are willing to take responsibility for any software they contribute (maintainer if you will)

- wiki space that we all feel happy to contribute to

- easy to understand, conflict free, version relevant documentation that can be easily maintained and rolled forward to the next version without losing the last

- It would also be nice to be able to hold our own repository for source code. Currently their are large amounts of original source and programs stored as attachments to the murga-forum. Should the forum disappear overnight the community would have great fun reassembling it. John has done an excellent job of providing this forum, I have no reason to believe anything catastrophic will happen to it, it just strikes me as poor contingency planning.
Therefore it is only those sites that provide, let's say 'core resources',
-repositories
-wiki space
-version relevant documentation
-forum + original source and programs

So I haven't visited every link in HairyWill's list but I think the import of what he says will only apply to a portion of those sites.

Am I right HairyWill?

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#49 Post by nic2109 »

[quote="Todd"]One of the wonderful things about Puppy is how eclectic it is. There seems to be a lot of talk about “organizing
[color=darkblue][b][size=150]Nick[/size][/b][/color]

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ttuuxxx
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#50 Post by ttuuxxx »

The funny thing about this whole ordeal is that ................
Barry has put obsoletely no input into this discussion.
Does he actually what to have a change? Or is this just a dream thats being forced upon him?
Also how about lets all post sites that appeal to each individual, that way we could get a feel of what works!
Then we can talk about how to put it together. I do have a diploma in web development and thats usually the first step for a client. Find out what the clients wants and needs are. Then guide them with examples. Its not an operating system its a way of life.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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