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Puppy's Website: Discussion
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darrelljon


Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 548

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 06:56    Post subject:  

I kind of agree with what I think is HairyWill's sentiment. Anyone should be free to make their own website, but beginners should have one comprehensive semi-official (Puppy Foundation) website to start to find everything.
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 07:30    Post subject:  

tombh wrote:
(2)PHP-ification (okay I made that word up!)
BRIEF: This basically involves having a centralised CSS design somewhere on the internet. Either, a site is programmed to get this design from a centralised location OR the centralised location is programmed to get the contents of the individual site and output it as part of its own. The reasoning behind a centralised design is that if ever a change was made to the design it would take effect instantly across all the sites without any extra work.
PROS:
*rich-man's frames -- i.e. many of the advantages of frames but without the inherent cons
*from a design perspective there would be more scope for a tighter and cleaner stylistic integration.
CONS:
*each site would need some coding thus requiring the consent and involvement of each maintainer
*users would effectively be loading two websites incurring compound download delays

This would be my preference. Those who want a link to their site from the Puppy Community Web would be invited to run the css code on their site. Those who don't might just get a mention on the other links page. This way we end up with the best of all worlds - a consistent look and feel without moving data all over the net and without usurping people's rights/desires to run their own sites.

The loading of "two sites" is only going to be an overhead while visiting those other links, and only for as long as you do that. It isn't that much really - a header from us and a page from them is all. I see this as a way to give everyone something of what they want - a central Puppy home with connections and links to all the important places from the one Puppy Portal, but allowing individuals to maintain their own presence and flavor when accessed separately.

Just my $AUD0.02c worth
(Today that's worth about $US0.96c but I can remember when it was only worth about $US0.65c! What a change!).

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tombh


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 422
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 08:04    Post subject:  

Woh! Hold yer horses there!

I intended my 3 options to really only apply to the core puppy sites -- ie main website, wiki, manual and forum. I'm certainly not in favour of bringing design continuity to the growing list of sites in HairyWill's post.

Not wanting to speak for HairyWill, but I don't think that's exactly what he means either. For me the gist of his point was in his bullet points --
HairWill wrote:

we need
- stable easy to navigate repositories preferably multiple identical (load balanced) mirrors. Ideally these will allow uploads from a number of individuals who have earned their stripes and are willing to take responsibility for any software they contribute (maintainer if you will)

- wiki space that we all feel happy to contribute to

- easy to understand, conflict free, version relevant documentation that can be easily maintained and rolled forward to the next version without losing the last

- It would also be nice to be able to hold our own repository for source code. Currently their are large amounts of original source and programs stored as attachments to the murga-forum. Should the forum disappear overnight the community would have great fun reassembling it. John has done an excellent job of providing this forum, I have no reason to believe anything catastrophic will happen to it, it just strikes me as poor contingency planning.


Therefore it is only those sites that provide, let's say 'core resources',
-repositories
-wiki space
-version relevant documentation
-forum + original source and programs

So I haven't visited every link in HairyWill's list but I think the import of what he says will only apply to a portion of those sites.

Am I right HairyWill?
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nic2109

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 406
Location: Hayslope, near Middlemarch, Midlands, England

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 08:59    Post subject:  

Todd wrote:
One of the wonderful things about Puppy is how eclectic it is. There seems to be a lot of talk about “organizing” things. Why? The quirkiness of Puppy and its community is what makes it so wonderful. So what if we have a whole gamut of sites dedicated to this or that agenda? I like it!

Todd

Todd; I don't think anyone is trying to prevent or tone-down the eclectic quirkiness evident all around you - think about herding cats and you'll get the scale of the challenge - but of attempting to capture and clean up the public face of Puppy.

The analogy that comes to mind is the creation of a learned society whose role is NOT to squash inquiry and exploration and creativity, but is to foster it by constructing and maintaining a self-regulating discipline that members sign up to voluntarily.

Newton acknowledged that he was only able to see further by standing on the shoulders of other giants, and that was made possible by the emerging conventions of scientific discourse.

And also: no-one (that I've read) has proposed interfering with sites and threads devoted to Puplets, but in so far as there is such a thing as "Official" versions of Puppy, they will all benefit from a better web presence. That web presence can, of course, include links to the wilder stuff that abounds and adds so much to Puppy.

(BTW; I do know that Newton pre-dated the Royal Society etc., but it doesn't invalidate the general point. Wink )

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 10:04    Post subject:  

The funny thing about this whole ordeal is that ................
Barry has put obsoletely no input into this discussion.
Does he actually what to have a change? Or is this just a dream thats being forced upon him?
Also how about lets all post sites that appeal to each individual, that way we could get a feel of what works!
Then we can talk about how to put it together. I do have a diploma in web development and thats usually the first step for a client. Find out what the clients wants and needs are. Then guide them with examples. Its not an operating system its a way of life.
ttuuxxx

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LOF


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 115
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 10:31    Post subject:  

Here's my 2 pence.

The community needs an official home. Somewhere where we point people to get the key info (be them newbies, press or seasoned developers). This really should be a site that Barry has some amount of control over (which would make it official).

That basic site would not have to have too much heavy content:
- Official release download links ("Get Puppy")
- Some sort of system requirements, technical specs
- Various boot options (usb, hdd, livecd, etc...)
- Goals/aims
- About Barry/community/history
- Official artwork/logos/slogans/press releases
- Reviews from various sources ("Puppy in the News")
- Donation link
- Support options
- Some way of channelling news from forum/wiki/Barry
- Links pointing to wiki, forum, repositories, irc, devloper blog, etc.

The wiki and forums would not need to be on the same domain as this official home (although it would be easier).

The second stage would then be collaborating all code for Puppy. From Puplets to individual packages to archived releases. Everything would be needed in one repository (mirrored indentically, as already mentioned). This could also be the point when the community can go through and standardise development. Major programs could be renamed in a standard order (think KDE-like), development on key areas could be timelined/roadmapped, various artwork areas could be simplified... You get the idea.

This is all only ideas though, and I seem to be aiming for some sort of uber-Puppy-taking-over-the-world-thing. Don't get me wrong, I love the quirkyness, it would just be nice to have some clear order for us all to rest on when adding new and improved things.

[Edit: See diagram for better idea of what I mean.]


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HairyWill


Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 2949
Location: Southampton, UK

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 11:13    Post subject:  

tombh wrote:
Am I right HairyWill?
I think so!

Are we talking about a website or also greater underlying organisation?

As a community we/you/they have tried to get organised in several ways before. The multiple foundations did not go well and previous community editions have been carried off by the determination of one or a few people. This thread is conspicuous by the absence of a number of major contributors to the community. They have seen similar efforts fail in the past. Anyone wanting to change embedded practice needs to offer these people a new way of doing what they are already doing that is less effort. This is not easy when you are dealing with highly productive people that have honed their methods over a number of years.

There are people in the community that I trust and those I don't. I'm not aware of anyone particularly malicious but there are definitely a few whose ability to deliver and understanding is less than their enthusiasm.

Eg MU runs a well organised repository (in my opinion it needs more package metadata) why would he submit control of this to a common standard run by a body less competent than himself. Zigbert is starting to amass a collection of his own software if his website address was added to the package list stored on the wiki he could make his latest releases available using PSI. In fact anybody can make their software available via PSI simply by telling people to add their website address to the mirrorlist in PSI. As an aside it would be nice if PSI didn't throw away user edits or had two lists, one for personal and one for semi-official.

out of time.....

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contribute: community website, screenshots, puplets, wiki, rss
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HairyWill


Joined: 26 May 2006
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Location: Southampton, UK

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 12:06    Post subject:  

lof
I like your plan.
Its pretty close to what we already have!
If Puppy Home is Barry's website then the only things missing are the manual and the news (this function is probably merged between Barry's blog and the wiki news page)

The manual is a key element. Oliver has done a fantastic job of creating and maintaining a manual. It would be really nice to establish a mechanism for a number of people to contribute concurrently to a manual using some automated system. An agreed document standard would be great. It should be possible to get a manual to a standard where Barry will sign it off as official. Look at the gnome desktop guide.
http://library.gnome.org/users/user-guide/
version, specific fantastic. The real difficulty with this arrangement is the need to install the editing environment and learn how to use it. Does anyone here have experience at this?

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Will
contribute: community website, screenshots, puplets, wiki, rss
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LOF


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 115
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 13:28    Post subject:  

HairyWill wrote:
...It would be really nice to establish a mechanism for a number of people to contribute concurrently to a manual using some automated system. An agreed document standard would be great...


Surely your answer is the wiki? Then all that would be needed would be to compile it into a PDF at the time of each official release and label it as the official manual for that release.

As to my plan, I agree completely that Barry's official page serves this purpose at the moment. But surely the point of this whole discussion is to graduate somehow to a site that will combine/complement this. Otherwise what is the aim of tombh's site?

I feel that if we are to change the outward appearance of Puppy's web presence then this is a great opportunity to change other aspects of the workings of the web community.

That's all IMHO though!

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HairyWill


Joined: 26 May 2006
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Location: Southampton, UK

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 14:57    Post subject:  

I have two objections to the use of a wiki to create a manual.

1. Unless you rigidly enforce presentation standards they can easily look messy. Compare a report written in Word to one written in LaTex. No slight intended on the existing wiki authors who do a good job in the absence of any style guidelines.

2. An unstructured hypertext environment is not good for a manual. Users jump around and can easily get "lost in hypertext". In a hierarchical document the author of chapter 5 can make reasonable assumptions about the reader understanding chapters 1-4, this stops lots of jumping around. The average newbie probably needs 1,2,3,4,5 not 1 then 4 or but you might need to look at 2 if you haven't looked at 3 already or if it is Tuesday you can go straight to 5.


I have never administrated a wiki so I have no idea how easy it is to clone for a new puppy version ensuring all the links move forward. Using a proper document preparation system would raise the bar to contribution just high enough to ensure that contributors were committed and understood linux/puppy well enough.

I've spoken a lot, I should be quiet.

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oli

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Germany, Frankfurt

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 17:46    Post subject:  

I followed the discussion and now I try to express my point of view.

(1) Barry as the head of Puppy is the owner of the (one and only !) official Puppy site. It was a mistake that he didn't allocate all relevant Puppy domain names e.g. www.puppylinux.com, www.puppylinux.org, www.puppylinux.info, www.puppyos.com, www.puppy-linux.com ....

(2) There are too many Puppy sites looking like an official site. I assume that this has come into existence because Barry concentrated at the development of Puppy and didn't manage to build up an organisation around Puppy and therefore some needs (forum, wiki, manual, ...) weren't fullfilled.

(3) Barry's site www.puppylinux.com has all relevant links at the main page. In my opinion it is very easy for a newbie to get all relevant information.

(3) It was not good to establish the PuppyLinux-Foundation.

(4) The wiki is out of date (broken links, referring to old Puppy releases), fragmentary and (sorry!) almost useless for newbies (that's why I wrote a manual and created the website www.puppy-linux.info)

(5) Caneri's offer of a server is well-intentioned but download speed is very slow (87 kb/sec). Are you sure that you really have enough bandwith and transfer volume to host the Puppy site? What about the costs?

My conclusion:

(1) We should do nothing without Barry.

(2) If Barry agrees to your/our ideas, some persons of the community (maintainers) should get access to his website and make a redesign (design and content) of the official Puppy site. Barry and these maintainers are something like a virtual Puppy organisation. Then I would be willing to integrate the manual into this page and to carry over www.puppy-linux.info to this organisation (and could be one of the maintainers for the manual).

(3) There is no need to create another (not official) Puppy website.

(4) We should empty the wiki and build up a new wiki (for example, every article must be marked with the Puppy release it refers to). The old content of the wiki should be checked and - if it is allright - brought into the new wiki.
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 18:15    Post subject:  

tombh wrote:
I intended my 3 options to really only apply to the core puppy sites -- ie main website, wiki, manual and forum. I'm certainly not in favour of bringing design continuity to the growing list of sites in HairyWill's post.

Agreed. There are, however, one or two unofficial sites that are greatly beneficial to the core e.g oli's puppy-linux.info site, Rhino's site for basic video tutorials, caneri's site for downloads. These could be included in this fashion, without disruption to what the site owners are trying to achieve, IF they want to be included as part of the common Puppy look-and-feel.

I also favor LOF's organisation as the central idea to how Puppy's web presence is organised, but I do NOT see puppylinux.com at the centre.

For the benefit of those who aren't sure what we're talking about "fixing" with this project, we are referring to puppylinux.org not puppylinux.com - the former is a community site, the latter Barry's own site. If Barry wants his own site included in the overall package, like oli, caneri, Rhino et al he will have to be approached and asked what level of inclusion suits him best.

Certainly I agree that Barry needs to be across, and in favour of, what is happening here. It is his distro. My understanding is that he's happy for this to proceed as a community project, but it really isn't the core of his interest in Puppy. Barry or raffy can correct me if I'm wrong about that.

The very LAST thing we are trying to do is to fix all of Puppy's communication issues with one web site update, although we are trying to lay down a solid foundation for what will follow! I'm sure MU would be happy for PSI to be a part of the community program, but it isn't necessarily a part of the current project. Let's deal with one thing at a time and progress rather than smoking our tyres and getting nowhere.

When we have a consistent community interface to present to the world as a portal to the most important things about Puppy, then we can move on to fix other things that need to be addressed. We don't need Barry personally and directly involved in that - just his ok to get it done.

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4759
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 20:15    Post subject: design and content  

There are many good points made already. Allow me to focus on what can be done soon.

1. Page design - Tom has offered a page design and has already received a good deal of suggestions. Could we have a simple page design that someone can easily get and publish? It should be simple enough for the average Web enthusiast to get and deploy. (This last point is relevant especially because the Puppy Web is kept by volunteers.)

2. Wiki - Oli has set an example in content (manual), so his suggestion about a new Wiki is significant. The latest version of wikkawiki should be adequate for this purpose. It will be good if (1) above can be implemented for this.

3. Test implementation - perhaps Oli could agreee to a test implementation of (1) and (2) at puppylinux.org, in a test directory (think of your preferrred word or phrase). Oli does not have to commit to long-term upkeep of the site, just the test period of 2-4 weeks. LOF and everyone else should be able to contribute once the basic structure of the site is in place.

Yes, Whodo, we will do the test site at puppylinux.org.

Thanks, everyone, for your inputs. Hope to see you in the new site. Smile

Barry could drop by and comment when we've done something already.
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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1580
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 21:15    Post subject:  

Hi Raffy et al,

Hooray!

I can't wait for the new testing to begin.

Best,
Eric

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 22:57    Post subject:  

HairyWill wrote:
MU runs a well organised repository (in my opinion it needs more package metadata)

One of our web developers, prit1, has created a web site-based Software search facility that uses the underlying file lists of MU's PSI to provide access to Puppy software packges. This was evidently developed at tombh's suggestion. I've tried it and it works well, but like PSI it is short on metadata (information about the files themselves for those who have never known the term). That said, it is a brand new, application-independent feature that will be part of the testing phase for our new web presence, although not yet finished by any means. Like tombh's interface, it's a GREAT start! We are moving forward, people.

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