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Puppy's Website: Discussion
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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 3198

PostPosted: Wed 19 Mar 2008, 07:30    Post subject: drupal sounds good to me  

I've never worked with drupal, but I do know it is taking over from commercial content management systems all over the place. Even the local polytechnic has decided to move all its content over to a drupal system (except for online learning, for which they are using the Australian created Moodle instead of Blackboard, which they used to use).

If tombh is offering to set up a Drupal site, I think it would be daft not to go with that. Anyway, its a useful skill to learn as far as I'm told; its expanding in use so rapidly that a former colleague tells me that there is lots of work in that area.
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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1569
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed 19 Mar 2008, 09:04    Post subject:  

Hi William and all,

Yes, Drupal is the way to go for me. I plan on moving to Drupal for all of puppylinux.ca in the not too distant future.

With Tom's help and his knowledge of Drupal this should be a fairly smooth process.

You never know but maybe Tom can earn some real money in the future from the test runs that will be done here.

Best,
Eric

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oli

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Germany, Frankfurt

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 07:06    Post subject:  

I had a look at Drupal, especially at "How to make a manual". If I understood right you have to use html-code to format the content. This is a disadvantage in comparison to dokuwiki because content and layout is not seperated. Dokuwiki seems to be much easier to use.

@ Tombh, Caneri, Raffy: I've made some test pages in dokuwiki (you know the URL), simulating two languages and (at one page of the manual) two versions. Pictures are still missing.
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tombh


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 422
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 08:23    Post subject:  

@Oli
I was wanting to know that you understand that we're considering Drupal for the whole website not just the manuals. Dokuwiki is good for the manuals but not so good for the other aspects of the website (ie, main website and general WIKI).

In order to give these 3 aspects a consistent design it will be easier for me if they all use the same CMS. It will also be easier for users and maintainers because they will only have one username and password.

I understand that Drupal will be harder to use at first, but is it so much harder that we seriously need to consider using separate CMSs?

PS. You don't have to use HTML to format the content in Drupal, it is just an option. It has the same WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) editor as Dokuwiki -- see the TINYMCE editor in action here.
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6815
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 10:07    Post subject:  

Hi tombh

Following on from nathan's post I just posted elsewhere about spam assassin, though it's not my field, however

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=183439#183439

and the altering of pizzasgood's post here

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=10837&start=45&sid=be84bef1001f39e66ecc359388da2335

are examples of problems of relying on badly set up filters

perhaps you should invite suggestions for dealing with via*** type spam advertising getting through, as alienjeff is going to explode if it transfers to the new site after all your efforts

Thanks

Aitch
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4839
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 13:00    Post subject: dokuwiki is running in a site  

oli:
Quote:
@ Tombh, Caneri, Raffy: I've made some test pages in dokuwiki (you know the URL), simulating two languages and (at one page of the manual) two versions.

Thanks, Oli. Dokuwiki is already running with the same admin account in another site (will PM you the URL).

Tom and Caneri, I don't know the URL and access code of the test site, so you can just send me the gzipped copy of the test pages. As to whether we will use Drupal or Dokuwiki, I guess both will still have to be learned by most contributors. Smile However, I tend to support Oli's concern for simplicity.

Oli, once you are able to populate the site with content (is it English first?), we can ask Barry to direct the DNS of puppylinux.org to the new site. Please give the signal.
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oli

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Germany, Frankfurt

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 14:59    Post subject:  

I can start creating the manual sites next week. But before I do I would be sure which site and which wiki is chosen. I don't want to make the work twice. What is the result of the discussion, what is the "real" future website?

I think someone (perhaps Tom?) should structure this project. First he should sum up the actual state of the project, what is already decided and what decisions have to make next? Who are the maintainers for which part of the website? When do we want to launch the new site? What content is a must at the date of starting?

At the moment the project is a collection of ideas and a preparative discussion and some testing. That is good, but it has to be changed into a real project.
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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1569
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 15:40    Post subject:  

@Oli,

Yes agreed Oli. Raffy has the dokuwiki at his domain and we can import your work here as far as I know.

I have one other point to add....If anyone can spare a few quid...maybe a small donation to Tom...it would be a helpful addition with all Tom's work so far. Hey just a thought but sometimes a few bob goes a long way.

My request is my own request...not from Tom....so I hope he isn't angry with my post.

Eric

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4440
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 19:01    Post subject:  

oli wrote:
I think someone (perhaps Tom?) should structure this project. First he should sum up the actual state of the project, what is already decided and what decisions have to make next? Who are the maintainers for which part of the website? When do we want to launch the new site? What content is a must at the date of starting?

At the moment the project is a collection of ideas and a preparative discussion and some testing. That is good, but it has to be changed into a real project.

Agreed. And since raffy originally invited me to lead the project, your comments lead me to think it is now time for me to make some decisions.

1. If we are agreed that Servage doesn't have the supporting bandwidth we need, and subject to Eric's agreement, I'd like to see Barry point the puppylinux.org DNS to Eric's server address. Although this is point 1, and is rightly the first decision to be made, it comes well down the list for priority of action.

2. If we are agreed that we don't want to face similar problems of lack of clarity and integration at the new site as we currently suffer with the old, I'd like to see Drupal be the integrated environment upon which the rest of Puppy's face is built. Evidence is that it has such popularity that finding future maintainers shouldn't be an issue.

3. If we are agreed that Drupal makes sense for Puppy, then we have the ability to assign editorial permissions to specific maintainers for oli's manuals. That helps to ensure the ongoing integrity of the manuals.

4. If we are agreed that the job oli and his cohorts are doing is indispensable to Puppy's attempts at being user friendly, I'd like oli to continue as the official Puppy leader of the documentation project.

5. If we are agreed that we like the way Tom and prit1 are working with our web development effort, I'd like them to begin work on a Beta site, so we can give a final ok to the look-and-feel aspect as well as overall functionality.

6. If we are agreed that a Beta site is our next logical step, that site MUST include a section for the manuals so oli and his crew can start porting their material. It must also contain a wiki section, since we are already in agreement that the wiki is the beating heart of Puppy.

7. If we are agreed that we do not want to lose the valuable content on the wakkawiki that Lobster maintains, I'd like to see our web developers and Lobster get together to do some test ports to the Beta site, so we can be certain we will be able to preserve the vast body of work that our diligent wiki maintainers have created.

8. I originally set Easter, being the time of rebirth, as the logical time for us to move on to the next stage of the rebirth of Puppy's web presence. Easter is upon us and so, if we are agreed that there has been enough discussion over the preliminary issues, I'd like to see us move into the Beta phase from now.

That certainly doesn't mean that discussion ends. It just means that we have enough material to move into creating a Beta test site. I will continue to communicate with tombh, prit1, caneri, Lobster and raffy by PM on any issues they feel may need clarification. If I deem any single issue is important enough to require community input, I will recommend the party raising it opens the matter for discussion here before any decision is made.

Onward and upward, gang!

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tombh


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 422
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 19:50    Post subject:  

@Eric: I of course appreciate your sentiments but I'd far rather people added to my Colour Memories Database than my bank balance.

@WhoDo: I'm just off to bed! Let not the brevity of my post reflect the significance of your post.
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klu9

Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 345

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 20:34    Post subject:  

another vote for a single unified CMS.
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- Puplet creators, see DistributingYourPuplet

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klu9

Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 345

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 20:58    Post subject:  

hmm... just tried Tom's link for testing out the TinyMCE wiki editor
  • the text formatting worked fine in the editing window (Headings, font changes, indents etc)
  • but no formatting applied in the Preview
  • and no formatting applied in the final result

weird Confused

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- Remember: it's a wiki. You can contribute too! Very Happy
- Puplet creators, see DistributingYourPuplet

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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 3198

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 21:35    Post subject:  

gone
Last edited by mcewanw on Sat 22 Mar 2008, 22:26; edited 2 times in total
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4839
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 22:24    Post subject: my notes so far  

Some notes to add:

1. Simple vs Complex - a unified CMS is fine, except that it demands a high level of maintenance work (This is especially true for Drupal, which requires many add-ons for additional functionalities such as (but not limited to) image uploading and wiki). If the maintainer later leaves for some reason, then the site would become stale. This has happened already when Puppian suddenly withdrew support from the puppylinux.org site and the Fusion CMS that he built with many added "infusions" (packages).

Thus, if we go Drupal, then there has to be at least three committed maintainers who know the ins and outs of the modules, to make sure that there will always be maintainer/s of the site.

On the other end, there is a simple out-of-the-box solution like the wiki (wikkawiki, dokuwiki) which anyone having FTP access can install and maintain.

2. Pointing the DNS of puppylinux.org - Barry will point the DNS to whichever site he chooses. In doing so, one criterion that he is likely to follow is "Don't put many eggs in one basket", meaning, that if one site already offers popular services for Puppy, then it would be better to go for another. In this light, Eric's puppylinux.ca already does a high level of support as a downloads site for Puppy.

This latter consideration (puppylinux.ca being a downloads site) raises the possibility that content from the wiki can be imported into puppylinux.ca and published as a manual - Eric has already acknowledged this idea above, in his most recent post. I find this idea worthwhile.

3. Netfirms as host - The dokuwiki installation I have is with netfirms.com (a free hosting benefit from a few small sites that I maintain), and I guess puppylinux.ca is also a netfirms.com site. I wonder if the sites can support clean URL (using Apache's mod_rewrite), an essential feature of Drupal. I will retry tests about this, but I recall that I was unable to use that feature in the past with my netfirms.com sites. If both sites (mine and Eric's) can't support clean URL, then we may have to look somewhere else for hosting, to exploit the clean URL feature of whatever CMS/wiki that we use. In this light, note that wikkawiki is able to use clean URL at servage.net.

4. Servage as host - we're reluctantly leaving servage.net because of undesirable server features* and unreliable support/security issues**. We're "reluctant", as puppylinux.org enjoys at least 5 years of free hosting accumulated from referrals. In this light, the wikkawiki has performed remarkably well despite all the other troubles with servage. If we add a new category, like "Manual" to wikka, will this satisfy our documentation thrust? And since wikka can also use HTML code, can't we use this feature to certain front-end parts of wikka?

-----------------------
* Specifically, dokuwiki can't run out of the box in servage.net, but this would not matter if wikkawiki is kept instead.

** A Fusion CMS feature that leaves certain directories open for writing must have aggravated the security situation.

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4839
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Thu 20 Mar 2008, 22:39    Post subject: ha ha  

Just saw your post, McEwan. My immediate reaction: ha ha ha! But, yes, your perspective is unconventional.

We have followed a principle of "earn your stripes" in matters concerning the Puppy Linux project. If some people here tend to speak with authority, it is because they know the developments and try their best to inform others and offer courses of action so a decision can be made given reasonable time.

As to the seeming rush of some recent posts, there was originally an Easter deadline for a new Puppy website. But that is not pressing for now as Oli made room for things to be wrapped up first.
----------------------

EDIT: Additional re Drupal - Drupal can be installed at servage.net (the current puppylinux.org site). I will free up a database and create an FTP account for this. We need volunteers who are able to tinker with PHP code to help install and maintain Drupal. I guess learning Drupal will be consistent in ensuring an integrated web presence of Puppy Linux in the future. I will PM Tom the details.

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