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 Forum index » House Training » Bugs ( Submit bugs )
Minor probs Alpha7
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Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 865
Location: Oregon USA

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 08:46    Post subject: Citrus - Awful  

Barry, I have the highest regard for your expertise and judgment, but - -

The citrus theme is an offense to the eyes. It immediately suggests,"What can he be thinking?" It's an invitation to look elsewhere.

A peaceful (non-distracting) theme is best. Greys and some blues are usually best, which is why they are used in all major apps. The medium should not get in the way of the message.

Another thing - You might say I am a minimalist, but I _use_ my computer. It's not a toy to show off a gaudy desktop with curves, animations, gimicks and wallpaper in the way. These tire eventually if not immediately. Nothing wrong with the original basic look of Puppy, except that the icons were toylike and garish. Zigbert's are much nicer.

Those who want to "personalize (we all do to some extent) will and should. But the default should not look like an awful mistake.

Respectfully, Henry
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Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 5538
Location: GB

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 08:48    Post subject:  

BK wrote "What do you mean? Hardinfo is in alpha7. "

Ah, yes, thanks. I see you've fixed the installed, so I can get back to it now.
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 09:32    Post subject:  

Puppy has unlimited potential to be THE operating system of choice. It is really, really good and a credit to the efforts of BarryK and assisting developers. However, there are a lot of fractured opinions in the forums that are constructive, but in the end very confusing. Have tried to get many friends to convert, but there is always something that goes wrong, ending in tears and frustration and a hasty retreat back to the original OS.

Maybe, and after long thought, it is time to examine the strengths of Puppy and where it is going. If it is just seen as a development tool, then continuing as now, would be sensible, but it would always be just that, a hobby for linux enthusiasts. There is endless discussion of themes and colours and desktops and desktop managers etc. but what does that matter when you can’t easily get your basic equipment to work, if at all.

Puppy’s strength lies in the fact that the package is small, requires little resources, can be run from a liveCD and most importantly can be remastered to suit individual preferences. From what I’m reading, it seems the development goals have become somewhat hijacked to the detriment of the overall philosophy of the KISS principle. After all, the very best systems are those that are simple, look too simple to work, but underneath have rock solid foundations and clever design.

For Barry’s original Puppy, would it not be better to have a core with all the basics a new user would need, tested, sorted and as stable as possible. And initially just one of each program. And call them what they are…. Spreadsheet, Web Browser, Word Processor, File Search, Media Player, Burner, PhotoViewer, Image Editor etc…… not defined by the developers code with preceding “k’s” or “f’s” or other coded references.

The greater development should be concentrated then on the ability to seemlessly download and install required packages, so the user can customise the package to taste and then remaster it. Now most will say that facility is already there, but from my experience some downloads work flawlessly and others give spurious messages about dependencies or missing files etc and then what. These should be well sorted before they are available for download. The great unwashed are totally lost and give up in frustration. It’s not a good way to convert anyone to Puppy.

The fact is, that like it or not, the majority of converts will come from a Win environment and will expect the same ease of use that they are familiar with. Sitting some friends down to try Puppy is an interesting experiment.

Initially they are ecstatic about being able to boot live and have all programs available. But the smiles soon vanish. Why are there two browsers? Which one will I use? What are all these other programs? How do I get my printer going? Oh, it’s not supported. Can you get my Webcam going? Nope! Can I use VOIP? Well, maybe, maybe not. My friend just sent me a movie but it won’t open. Work sent me an Excel sheet to work on but it won’t work in Puppy. Why don’t my drives show up. Oh, you need to mount them first. !!!!! What do you mean, mount them? Where is Google Earth? Etc. The list goes on. Anyway, that’s the reaction and a flight back to windows.

You can see that it’s a work in progress to prise users away from windows, but judging from all the variations of linux out there with broken or incomplete elements, it may be a lost cause. I hope not, but think that linux will remain forever a hobbyists tool. Puppy will either crash or crash through this resistance and will only be successful if developers put themselves in the shoes of the user and provide a friendlier interface. Have a look at Linpus Linux Lite at http://www.linpus.com/ to see how simple and good the interface can be.

Just thinking out load and in no way detracting from Barry’s work and his genius!

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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 176
Location: Above sea level .. about 320m

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 11:38    Post subject: Themes  

I vote for gray, blue, or black themes ... the darker the background is ... the better (but with readable text and icons). My eyes aren't that great and darker background tones work best for me. The GTK theme matching selector in 214R is an outstanding addition. JWM is looking better but without a double height (two icons high) taskbar I much prefer a basic version of IceWM without extra addons.

However, without a retro kernel to boot (like with 301Retro) it's a moot point as the ndiswrapper will not recognize my usb wireless drivers or I can't get a connection .... not even on my Acer Aspire 5570Z laptop that's less than a year old. Linux drivers in the setup menu don't work for me either on myZyXEL G202 andM202 usbs..

214R and 216EZ runs great on most of my old boxes (ndiswrappers work) but will not setup the built-in ath_pci wifi on my laptop. There, 396 comes close to working right .... but not as good as the Vista Basic OS that came preloaded. Haven't tried 397 .... will wait for at least Beta2 or final.

In general, I am pleased that Puppy developers (especially Barry) are constantly making improvements and turning out such a nice, well rounded, yet small OS ... but as a relative n00bie to linux ... I'm getting tired of bleeding on the cutting edge.

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Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 1552
Location: florida

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 12:07    Post subject:  

Do you hate the Citrus theme?

I usually don't care what the theme is, don't think I've ever bothered to change it from whatever the default is. But all that orange is really hard to look at. With Dingo it's the first thing I change.

I vote for Zigbert's Stardust Icons and theme. I think Stardust Icons are particularly sharp looking. For wall paper I like the old seagull in flight wall paper, a nice blue sky shot.

As far as the default image viewer, I usually want to edit an icon or somthing, so mtPaint is good for that. But users like me would no problem using mtPaint if it wasn't the default. Fotox is better for looking at photos, probably should be the default.
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Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2
Location: Uruguay

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 15:10    Post subject: Citrus theme.-  

Citrus theme is innovator, at first it looks and feel strange, but then you like it, just like puppy. If you don't like it, is so easy by now, to change puppy look; but the first impression has to be different and personal. Citus theme go with this philosophy.
Best regards from the South.-


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Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 538
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 16:22    Post subject:  

Even though the Citrus theme make puppy look a bit different, I still prefer the blue or grey themes. Stardust is a good one too.
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Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 560

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 17:12    Post subject:  

Stardust theme please.

Hi, as a user with impaired vision I would really appreciate the inclusion of the Stardust or similar theme. For whatever reason giving the user an out of the box choice of a clean and easily readable theme has got to be a bonus.
Many thanks to all.
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Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 87
Location: Agoura Hills, California

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 18:28    Post subject:  

I absolutely love the orange theme.
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Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Flagstaff, AZ

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 18:34    Post subject: Puppy 4 theme
Subject description: Moderation by default

I believe a relatively conventional (but inspired!) look is best as the default. More adventurous themes like Citrus can be offered as options, included or available. I generally tend to favor environments easy on the eye and brain and find Stardust appealing.
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13093
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 18:58    Post subject:  

Stylish themes like Citrus are nice until you add desktop icons for other programs. Then it clashes.
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Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 2816
Location: South Australia :-(

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 19:05    Post subject:  

I must admit I do like the Stardust theme too. It's sharp, easy on the eyes and looks professional.

As many have already said Puppy needs to be fully configured out of the box. In other words if I click on an attachment in the email client it should just work. I know this is easy to setup but many people are unable to deal with this and therefore discard puppy as an unfriendly system. Puppy is without a doubt (in my opinion) the best OS I have ever used when considering speed, size and functionality. I must admit though, Barry's graphical OS that fits on a FDD was pretty impressive.

Puppy is also very good at hardware detection. Why not make things like network configuration automagic? It may be more difficult that I imagine but it would certainly appeal to most new users of puppy. The wizard would need to stay for the odd time puppy got it wrong.

Another problem for many is the package manager. It doesn't seem to work, can't find the site. This is not an issue for me but it is for many I have introduced to puppy.

Although I have some favorite programs I always install, and I'm not suggesting they should be part of the standard package, they need to be easily available to install as a PET package. Two that come to mind are Skype (latest) and Picasa. Skype is one of the most popular VOIP programs about and needs to be available.

There are also many opinions about software for viewing and managing photos. In MY opinion picasa is hard to beat although quite large. I like the way picasa installs Wine. It always does it better than when I have done it as a stand alone package. I also like the idea of keeping puppy small and fast.

I would also like to see a utility than allows the removal of existing installed software. Currently if I install a new program I can usually uninstall it with package manager. I haven't found a way to simply remove the original programs, for example: I might want to use Firefox and Thunderbird. How do I get rid of Seamonkey without doing it manually? All too hard for most. In most cases you just leave it there and the save file become huge and eventually starts to slow down the system.

It has already been mentioned but video and scanning is a must. Too many people want it to leave out.

Maybe another idea is to have a software configuration wizard where on the first run you tick boxes to decide what programs you would like to include. There would obviously be default programs.

This would allow you to add or remove programs quite easily too.

Not all the software would need to be on the ISO, keeping it even smaller. As a box is ticked it could be downloaded then installed. In the past this was not an option but with ADSL not a problem.

I realise Squash File Systems already address this to some extent but this method would be simpler for many users. One needs to remember nearly everyone knows windows and anything similar will be welcomed. I'm not saying that is a good thing but it is a fact. It is easy to change people but small steps are required. I'm not advocating converting people from windows just suggesting we give them a choice, I better one I believe.

I have many other ideas but this will do for now.

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Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 194
Location: Fort Worth, TX

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 19:22    Post subject:  

A consistent look throughout makes Puppy feel like something serious. The themeing in the recent 2.14 remaster has this quality.

The orange is fairly consistent, but there are some pieces that don't seem to fit in well. Some of the ROX icons are unchanged and don't match up well with the new icons. There's also some weird gray sprinkled about (like on the JWM config tool) that adds to that "slapped-together" feel.
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 20:44    Post subject:  

Agree with Smokey01 comments which parallel mine to some extent.

In addition, why can't the drives be auto mounted on startup as default and an option in setup to turn this off if required. And auto internet connect.

Also would encourage members to have a look at the http://www.linpus.com/ linpus site and download ver 9.4. It's a bit big at ~400mb so dial up is out. Some components don't work as I believe it's a pay prog aimed at the Chinese market. But the interface is fantastic, it is quick and just begs to be used. Gets away from the desktop type arrangement and clearly and simply organises tasks. If only Puppy could head in this direction! Crying or Very sad

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Joined: 02 Jun 2007
Posts: 50
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 14 Mar 2008, 21:31    Post subject: Citrus Theme  

Dingo's Citrus theme didn't bother me because I just changed it. But if it turns off a potential new Puppy user who would otherwise use it , then that would bother me.
It's what is under the hood that matters. I liked 3.01's theme just fine!

CWLab : Amateur Radio CW Program Moving to GNU/Linux!
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