Puppy's Website: Disclaimer.

[tombh]

Seeing as the website is designed to be, well if not official, then at least a formal focal-point of Puppy and the community (receiving around 6000 visits a day) we should make use of the opportunity to formally communicate what users should expect from Puppy, Puplets, Pets and involvement with the community..

Although I think Barry deals with the official side of his releases, and to some extent Puplets and Pets, we can still take the opportunity to repeat, reinforce and extend on the details. So perhaps in the "Official Releases" section we could reiterate Barry's terms and conditions, then in the "Puplets" section, make it clear that they are not official and that Puppy cannot take responsibility for them, and then for the Pets, that only Barry's 'ibiblio' pet packages are official and that all others should be used at the user's own risk.

And then there is the use of the website itself, where do we stand on spam, advertising, abuse, misconduct, bad jokes and post-processual archeology in a post-modern culture?

So that's 4 areas to cover;

Official Puppy
So here we could just repeat Barry's legal notice, this is lifted straight from his site (something which he discourages) and is also included with every Puppy,

Legal notice:
I, Barry Kauler, established the 'Puppy Linux Project' in January 2003, first website and product release 18-June-2003, and I have trademark claim to the name and typed drawing of 'Puppy Linux', 'PuppyOS' and 'Puppy' as it relates to "computer operating system software to facilitate computer use and operation", under Federal and International Common Law and Trademark Laws as appropriate.
Programs in Puppy are open source (except where noted above), and licences of individual products are duly acknowledged. The name Puppy Linux", also known as "Puppy" and "PuppyOS", and all artisitic creations thereof, are copyright (c) 2003,2004,2005,2006,2007,2008 Barry Kauler.
Disclaimer:
Very simple, use entirely at your own risk. Barry Kauler accepts no liability or responsibility whatsoever, and you use Puppy with this understanding.

But perhaps this applies more to the entire Puppy phenomenon as a whole rather than just official releases? So should appear in the main "Terms and Conditions" as well as within the "Official Releases" section.

Puplets
Again, we need to spell out the situation, that Puplets are *not* official nor endorsed (though encouraged!) by Barry. That users use any given Puplet at their own risk. Perhaps even mention the potential dangers that a malicious developer could create. This would appear somewhere in the Puplets section, perhaps somewhere (in small print), on every Puplet download page.

Pets
Similar to the Puplets, Pets should be used at the users own risk. the downloads and search page would be convenient places for this disclaimer.

Website and Community
For example:
Information contained on this website is publicly editable and so can be changed at any time without warning, therefore Puppy does not accept responsibility for the accuracy, quality nor suitability of any its content.
Any content found to be unsuitable may be removed without warning.

[alienjeff]

Better run this one by "legal" ...

[tombh]

How do you mean?

[muggins]

Especially post-processual archeology in a post-modern culture. I was waiting for AJ to pre-deconstruct that one for me.

[HairyWill]

makes sense to me

Maybe the problem of Barry's stuff could be solved if he put his legal disclaimer on its own page that was designed to be included live in other pages or just linked to easily. If he even provided a page with an anchor at the legal stuff it would be helpful.

www.puppylinux.com/legal
www.pupplinux.com/info.htm#legal

[muggins]

Er...Will,

you couldn't put that phrase into other terms for this poor antipodean. (I have to admit failing English at the lowest level in Oz's Higher school certificate)

[tombh]

Okay, how about these, ready to be pasted into the site?

(I should work for a legal company! I've never written stuff like this before, but I've read enough terms. conditions, small prints, disclaimers and cereal packets to know the lingo Oh and Puppy may contain traces of nuts)

Official Puppy
Although every effort is made by Barry Kauler, the creator of Puppy Linux, to ensure that these official releases are stable and nice to your computer, he cannot guarentee this. Please read his disclaimer (at the bottom of the linked-to page) before using Puppy Linux.

Puplets
Disclaimer: Please be aware that Puplets are not official releases and although Barry Kauler, the creator of Puppy Linux, does encouraged them, he, nor the Puplet authors, cannot accept responsibility for any misfortune that may result from their use. There are no restrictions towards those wishing to both create a Puplet and advertise its existence on this website. Therefore you are advised that use of Puppy is entirely at your own risk.

Pets
Disclaimer: Please be aware that the majority of additional software for Puppy, otherwise known as 'Pets', linked to from this site are not official and although Barry Kauler, the creator of Puppy Linux, does encouraged them, he, nor the Pet's authors, cannot accept responsibility for any misfortune that may result from their use. However, all Pets that come under the 'pet-packages' category are released by Barry Kauler and come under his disclaimer which can be accessed from his website. The administrators of servers hosting additional Puppy software do actively strive to ensure the authenticity and reliability of community contributions but ultimately they cannot make any guarentees. Therefore you are advised to use the Pets available through this site at your own risk.

Website and Community
Information contained on this website is publicly editable and so can be changed at any time without warning, therefore Puppy does not accept responsibility for the accuracy, quality nor suitability of any its content. Any content found to be unsuitable may be removed without warning.

[ttuuxxx]

[quote="tombh"]Okay, how about these, ready to be pasted into the site?

(I should work for a legal company! I've never written stuff like this before, but I've read enough terms. conditions, small prints, disclaimers and cereal packets to know the lingo Oh and Puppy may contain traces of nuts)

Pets
Disclaimer: Please be aware that the majority of additional software for Puppy, otherwise known as 'Pets', linked to from this site are not official and although Barry Kauler, the creator of Puppy Linux, does encouraged them, he, nor the Pet's authors, cannot accept responsibility for any misfortune that may result from their use. However, all Pets that come under the 'pet-packages' category are released by Barry Kauler and come under his disclaimer which can be accessed from his website. The administrators of servers hosting additional Puppy software do actively strive to ensure the authenticity and reliability of community contributions but ultimately they cannot make any guarentees. Therefore you are advised to use the Pets available through this site at your own risk.

Well when it comes to making pets, I release a good selection on a regular basis, People like myself wouldn't have to make so many of them if Barry would release some also, he does do the best job at it, I'm ok at compiling, but no pro like Barry is and we could use a few from him, His repo is great as a starting point but they never get updated untill the next full release.
Like Barry would probably do a great job on the latest VLC, Gimp Mplayer, Musescore, Midori or a stripped down version of Open Office, the big programs I always have problems with making them small. But after a release is made basically Barry switches to fix it mode/next release mode. You can write the disclaimer if you wish, But really shouldn't you explian to all of us what we should be doing and what not to do? That disclaimer looks like your washing your hands of all the extra help that people like me do. Some of us should be educated.
Not trying to upset anybody, but I always have a problem with disclaimers.
ttuuxxx

[HairyWill]

Website and Community
This website is maintained and financed by volunteers, most information is publicly editable and so can be changed at any time without warning. No liability can be accepted for the accuracy, quality nor suitability of any of its content. Any content found to be unsuitable may be removed without warning.

Somewhere we should probably say thanks to WhoDo for the hosting.

[ttuuxxx]

Website and Community
This website is maintained and financed by volunteers, most information is publicly editable and so can be changed at any time without warning. No liability can be accepted for the accuracy, quality nor suitability of any of its content. Any content found to be unsuitable may be removed without warning.

Somewhere we should probably say thanks to WhoDo for the hosting.

I like Hairy's Idea, If it looks bad get rid of it asap and maybe inform the poster the reason why.
ttuuxxx

[HairyWill]

ttuuxxx
I was only intending on rewording the section that I wrote, the rest I think, should stand as is. Tom wrote the bit about deleting stuff, sometimes it might be nice to give a reason but in the face of obvious junk we should allow ourselves to just bin it. If an editor is unsure about something they can just delete the content of the post as it can always be reverted later (it is important that you complete the log in this case).

Here is a list of the people that currently have privileged rights and responsibilities on the site.

translators:
AC
craftybytes
urbansoul
cecc2
alexthedragon
Puppyluvr
nyu
BillWho
caka
vk
slapshot

editors:
aitch
SunBurnt
pakt
ttuuxxx
cb88
prehistoric
disciple
darrelljon
LOF
J_Rey
tronkel

admins:
raffy
hairywill
WhoDo
lobster
oli
prit

Any of these, especially WhoDo and probably Barry who owns the domain name could be held responsible for the site content. Really we all need to have our opinions considered on this, should we choose.

The site is partly intended as a gateway for people to puppy who may not appreciate the anarchic way in which the community is organised, there is no chain of responsibility.

When was the last time you downloaded some windows shareware and ran it without it going through through a virus scanner first? When was the last time you ran a pet or even an iso through a virus scanner?

There is no slight on any individual intended. Why should you trust the software I release? Why should you trust the software that User987654 releases. You and I understand the difference in these two situations. Jo Newbie may not,we have a duty of care to ensure that she does. The forum is full of posts saying "just download and run this", what is it really? I have ranted before on binary software and our non-existent trust mechanisms, I had better stop now .

[WhoDo]

Somewhere we should probably say thanks to WhoDo for the hosting.

Nice thought, Will, but I'll settle for just not being open to litigation!

It might be important to use the words "warranty" - as in there isn't any - and "merchantability" - as in if you use this for business don't blame us if your business loses out - somewhere, too.

Since everything here is released under the GNU Public Licence, a reference to the wording of that wouldn't hurt either.

Thanks for the effort on this guys. It is really appreciated.

[alienjeff]

I strongly suggest following Creative Commons' lead on this. To wit, have a consise, succinct, plain-language summary page of the disclaimer and a separate page with as much of the bloody fine print legalese that is decided upon.

Example pages:

Read the Commons Deed

View the Legal Code

Reference:

http://creativecommons.org/about/license/

[raffy]

I wonder if we can emphasize support, like making sure that every contributor of puplet or pet provides a website URL or email address?

And this line can be inserted before the disclaimer/s: "This puplet and/or pet is a responsibility of the author, whose support URL is given above - please use it for getting support."

[ttuuxxx]

I wonder if we can emphasize support, like making sure that every contributor of puplet or pet provides a website URL or email address?

And this line can be inserted before the disclaimer/s: "This puplet and/or pet is a responsibility of the author, whose support URL is given above - please use it for getting support."

This puplet and/or pet is a responsibility of the author, whose support URL is given above - please use it for getting support.."

ummm no, thats what the forum is for in the first place, to help people and for people to get help by others, I might make a pet package that works on series 3, but if a puppy user of series 4 tries it and it doesn't work why would he email me? Most the time other puppy users join in and fix the problem, I do not have a need to get like 500 emails a month to fix every problem a user might have personally from one of my pet package releases. Let others help, Plus if we include websites or emails we are opening doors to spam.
ttuuxxx

[HairyWill]

The support url can be a forum thread it doesn't need to be an email or particular website. In fact a thread or wiki page is good because it allows people to read about already know problems and solutions and it allows other knowledgeable people to contribute .

The crucial point is that the producer/publisher of any software should include with that software, or very close to it a mechanism by which they can be identified and have problems reported to them. They should be happy to consider themselves the first point of contact in reporting problems. This has a two way effect as it builds the reputation of that person as someone that provides quality software.

Software SHOULD NOT BE ANONYMOUS otherwise we are making it easy for the producers of malware.

If someone complains that your 4.00 pet doesn't work on 2.14 there is nothing wrong with saying "sorry I can't help, you should install 4.00".

[ttuuxxx]

yes but what about K.I.S.S = keep it simple silly. Or if its not broken, why complicate it lol I just like the old method, It hasn't been abused and all this talk about malware "knock on wood"
ttuuxxx

[tombh]

Okay, another version to consider. Apart from the extra Creative Commons stuff, changes are italicized.

Official Puppy
Although every effort is made by Barry Kauler, the creator of Puppy Linux, to ensure that these official releases are stable and nice to your computer, no warranty of merchantability can be given. Please read his disclaimer (at the bottom of the linked-to page) before using Puppy Linux.

Puplets
Disclaimer: Please be aware that Puplets are not official releases and although Barry Kauler, the creator of Puppy Linux, does encourage them, neither he, nor the Puplet authors, cannot accept responsibility for any misfortune that may result from their use and are offered without warranty of merchantability. There are no restrictions towards those wishing to both create a Puplet and advertise its existence on this website. Therefore you are advised that use of Puppy is entirely at your own risk.

Pets
Disclaimer: Please be aware that the majority of additional software for Puppy, otherwise known as 'Pets', linked to from this site are not 'official' and although Barry Kauler, the creator of Puppy Linux, does encouraged them, neither he, nor the Pet's authors, cannot accept responsibility for any misfortune that may result from their use and are offered without warranty of merchantability. However, all Pets that come under the 'pet-packages' category are released by Barry Kauler and come under his disclaimer which can be accessed from his website. The administrators of servers hosting additional Puppy software do actively strive to ensure the authenticity and reliability of community contributions but ultimately they cannot make any guarentees. Therefore you are advised to use the Pets available through this site at your own risk.

Website and Community (this will be under the "terms and conditions" link which is at the bottom of *every* page)
This website is maintained and financed by volunteers, most information is publicly editable and so can be changed at any time without warning. No liability can be accepted for the accuracy, quality nor suitability of any of its content. Any content found to be unsuitable may be removed without warning. Unless otherwise stated this website's content is published, and therefore any content that you publish through it as a registered user, comes under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License;

Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported
You are free:

* to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work
* to Remix — to adapt the work

Under the following conditions:

* Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).

* Noncommercial. You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
* Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.
* For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work. The best way to do this is with a link to this web page.
* Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.
* Nothing in this license impairs or restricts the author's moral rights.

The full Creative Commons License is here.

[raffy]

Thanks for attending to these matters, Tom.

First a minor edit: when "nor" is used, it is good practice to precede the first subject with "Neither". So it will read like "Neither Barry Kauler nor the Puplet authors should accept responsibility..."

Else simply drop the "n" from "nor", as in ".. he, or the Puplet authors, cannot accept responsibility..."

Under Website and Community, perhaps the following underlined portion can be deleted: "Unless otherwise stated Puppy's code is released under the terms of the GNU GPL and the Creative Commons..." and substituted with "the website contents are published under", so it will read: "Unless otherwise stated the website contents are published under the Creative Commons..."

And, perhaps, the CC terms can end at "Attribution". It is a community website, so I guess there will be problems implementing the other terms. Although, individual authors can choose to post their own terms (?).

Thanks again for your efforts, Tom.

[tombh]

Okay I've updated my previous post to include "neither" along with the first subject of sentences containing "nor". I've also edited the "Website and Community" bit to remove the stuff about Puppy's code and GPL (Barry's disclaimers can deal with that I guess). I've also added that any work published by users will come under this CC license.

@alienjeff: What do you reckon to the way the CC license is included? Therefore that brief description appended on the end of the "Website and Community" section with a link to the full terms at the end? Remember that that bit will come under the bit of the website which is currently linked to right at the bottom as "Terms and Conditions" but I think I will change it to "Disclaimer". Perhaps there should be a sticky bit of text *right* at the bottom below everything else that appears on every saying something like, "Published under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License"?