Alpha 5 of Puppy 4.1

[Lobster]

Alpha 5 of Puppy 4.1 for testers
http://tmxxine.com/wik/wikka.php?wakka=PuppyDingo41

Click on Alpha 5 it takes you here

Index of /pub/linux/distributions/puppylinux/test/puppy-4.1alpha5

download this file:
puppy-4.0.5-seamonkey.iso

NB: For testing and developers - not for general usage wait for the Beta releases for that

[Sit Heel Speak]

Where's the zdrv for it?

[BarryK]

There is no zdrv. This pup is built with all modules in the pup_405.sfs file. That's how it will be from now on, or in the initrd.

[raffy]

Yes, a new approach to booting in 4.1. I just wonder how small size can be achieved in succeeding boots in the same machine. Puppy is not really a hard-disk-bound distro, so it needs to be light after shedding off some unneeded drivers (for repeated use in the same machine).

Say, if I have 3 different PCs, can I boot one after another and expect Puppy to create a hardware profile, then I can rebuild/trim theinitrd.gz (or sfs) based on this profile?

[BarryK]

Yes, a new approach to booting in 4.1. I just wonder how small size can be achieved in succeeding boots in the same machine. Puppy is not really a hard-disk-bound distro, so it needs to be light after shedding off some unneeded drivers (for repeated use in the same machine).

Say, if I have 3 different PCs, can I boot one after another and expect Puppy to create a hardware profile, then I can rebuild/trim theinitrd.gz (or sfs) based on this profile?

In theory, yes.

[otropogo]

Alpha 5 of Puppy 4.1 for testers
http://tmxxine.com/wik/wikka.php?wakka=PuppyDingo41

So where is it? When I go to the URL the page says "alpha 4", and the iso is alpha 4, not alpha 5.

[Lobster]

When you click on Alpha 5 it takes you here

Index of /pub/linux/distributions/puppylinux/test/puppy-4.1alpha5

download this file

puppy-4.0.5-seamonkey.iso 29-Jul-2008 21:00 92M

[otropogo]

When you click on Alpha 5 it takes you here

Index of /pub/linux/distributions/puppylinux/test/puppy-4.1alpha5

download this file

puppy-4.0.5-seamonkey.iso 29-Jul-2008 21:00 92M

Jeesh! Why not just post the link or the URL to the download page?

distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/puppylinux/test/puppy-4.1alpha5/

(my apologies to other would be downloaders, although I tried for at least ten minutes, I can't figure out how to create a URL link on this system - you'll have to copy and paste)

Not being on the right wavelength, I clicked on:

"Where do I find out about the Alpha Release?

* Forum thread∞
* Developers Blog∞
* The iso's are available here"

Pretty dumb eh? Looking for the latest alpha release in the alpha release directory. I had the silly idea that all alphas are experimental and recommemded for testers only.

Maybe we need a new label, like "pre-alpha" or "proto-alpha"!.

[Sit Heel Speak]

I am delighted to report that 4.1-alpha-5, with the scsi-1 kernel for my Adaptec scsi adapter, assigns drives their letters in what I recognize as "correct" order, speaking as a Gentoo user. That is, sda is the first true scsi drive, then after the scsi drives are done the ata drives get their letters, and finally the removeable usb stick.

Display order in PMount is still not quite right though.

Screen capture

They should be displayed in PMount in correct sort order as:

sda --> the Quantum Atlas V 9 WLS scsi drive with 3 partitions
sdb --> the Quantum Atlas V 9 WLS scsi drive with 2 partitions
sdc --> the Quantum Atlas V 18 WLS scsi drive with 2 partitions
sdd --> the WDC WD102BA ATA drive with 3 partitions
sde --> the Samsung SV4002H ATA drive with 3 partitions

Now to see if a full install to an scsi drive will boot...

[edoc]

Is this ready to test on my Panasonic Toughbook CF-28 where I have been struggling with USB and PCMCIA?

Or is the work on that part, which I have read about elsewhere in Puppy-land, still underway?

[Sit Heel Speak]

I am thrilled to report that booting the full install on sda2 (first scsi drive, 2nd partition)...with BIOS setup boot order told to boot the first ata disk first...i.e. from grub menu.lst on the first ata drive (sdd1)...works. However, Grub's conventions as to how drives are numbered are a bit puzzling. First ata drive is hd0, as you would expect, but second ata drive is hd5, which is doubly strange since there are only five drives present and so you would think the numbering would top out at hd4. First scsi drive is hd1.

(note: when installing, choose "Internal (IDE or SATA) hard drive" as the media that you want to install Puppy to, even though it's really an SCSI hard drive)

Now let's see if I can make it boot this full install from a grub menu.lst residing on the same scsi drive as the Puppy 4.1-alpha-5 Puppy full install...with BIOS setup told to boot the first scsi drive first, and the adapter's own BIOS told to allow it...

[Sit Heel Speak]

I am dancing on popcorn clouds buttered with sunshine to report that...

The Age of Puppy Linux Booting Natively On SCSI has finally arrived.

If in BIOS Setup I make the first scsi disk the first boot device...grub installed to the first scsi disk's mbr (installing to the root superblock didn't work)...grub installed to /dev/sda (i.e. menu.lst on sda1)...the actual full install to which the menu.lst entry points, can be on any scsi disk with a Linux partition. When booting with scsi disk as the first boot device, unlike in the above test, the boot disk is (in the grub menu lines) hd0.

I won't test it, but would presume that a frugal install on scsi can be started this way too.

***Allelujah!!!***

And now, suddenly I have enough disk space to go test a few more puplets...

[Sage]

Genius lurks in many, but few are able to unlock it!
Well done. Would be a good idea to revisit norte3's thread and provide some additional detail. Somewhere, I outlined some of the aspects of setting up the drive jumpers, etc on scsi kit.
Any comments on access speed?
Incidentally, this thread is becoming confused with the bugs thread again.

[raffy]

Sage:

this thread is becoming confused with the bugs thread

So maybe add "features" to the title, to make this a discussion of 4.1alpha5 features.

I guess that with flash devices now in wide usage, that Puppy can be flash-device centric (in contrast to being CD-centric). Maybe these points will help clarify:

- Using a live CD (in a single-CD PC) and not wanting to touch the hard disk, Puppy has to load itself to RAM so that the CD drive can be used. This increases the RAM requirement, and at times causes an embarrassing crippled Puppy (when the available RAM gets exhausted). Copying the sfs to RAM also lengthens the boot time.

- Flash devices can function as virtual hard disk, especially in USB2-equipped PCs. In fact, experience in the eeePC shows that the external SD/USB/flash interface can be faster than the inbuilt flash storage.

In alpha5, Unipup's (4.1's) design is to include all drivers (?) in the Puppy sfs, and I noted that the boot device is always mounted regardless of RAM size (my tests did not go over 512 MB RAM). However, performance is still snappy in 600-800 mhz Celerons.

Of course, for people who may want to use smaller sfs (with cutdown drivers or less applications), the remastering tool is always available.

[otropogo]

Sage:

this thread is becoming confused with the bugs thread

So maybe add "features" to the title, to make this a discussion of 4.1alpha5 features.

IMO It doesn't make much sense to talk exclusively about new features when so many old "features" don't work reliably, (or at all).

I guess that with flash devices now in wide usage, that Puppy can be flash-device centric (in contrast to being CD-centric). Maybe these points will help clarify:

- Using a live CD (in a single-CD PC) and not wanting to touch the hard disk, Puppy has to load itself to RAM so that the CD drive can be used. This increases the RAM requirement, and at times causes an embarrassing crippled Puppy (when the available RAM gets exhausted). Copying the sfs to RAM also lengthens the boot time.

There are other, arguably more important, reasons for loading Puppy entirely into RAM, AND for keeping that minimum RAM requirement small, than freeing up the CD/DVD drive.

1. support for machines with limited RAM, particularly older laptops

2. speed of operation

3. battery life on laptops

As system requirements increase, more experienced users will see less and less reason to stay with Puppy instead of switching to more mainstream distributions, such as Xubuntu. And with them will go much of the support for the beginners.

And how significant a factor is any potential shortening of boot-up time in the greater scheme of things? I mean, what fraction of your daily Puppy time will be saved by any conceivable shortening of boot-up?

- Flash devices can function as virtual hard disk, especially in USB2-equipped PCs. .....

Especially?? How many potential Puppy users do you think will have internal (non-USB) flash drives? And the other question is: how long will those flash cards last when being written to constantly like a mechanical drive?

And unless I've missed some recent announcement, booting from pcmcia-based flash (or network, or scsi),even with a floppy boot disk, is still just a fond wish in Puppy land.

Of course, for people who may want to use smaller sfs (with cutdown drivers or less applications), the remastering tool is always available.

So you take a distro distinguished by its ease of use for beginners and by its ability to run reasonably well on trailing edge systems low on speed, memory, and storage.

Then you gear it towards the power users equipped with significantly greater hardware resources and vastly greater computing skills, and tell the beginners with their minimal machines to "roll your own" (and on what, I wonder, since they probably won't be able to boot Puppy in the first place?).

What's left? Just another unremarkable nerdy distro in a field of dozens..

[Sit Heel Speak]

How many potential Puppy users do you think will have internal (non-USB) flash drives?

Hundreds of millions, every schoolchild in China in fact, if Intel Corporation gets its way. You see, the Intel Classmate (Intel's OLPC competitor) has an internal flash drive.

Modern flash drives, meaning those made since about mid-2006, have wear-levelling algorithms, so burnout is not an issue anymore. Even in 24-7-365 use, expect it to last several years--effectively the same life expectancy as a hard disk, since by the time it fails we will have converted over to using something else anyway, multi-terabyte holographic-storage cards perhaps.

And unless I've missed some recent announcement, booting from pcmcia-based flash (or network, or scsi),even with a floppy boot disk, is still just a fond wish in Puppy land.

Heh...wanna bet? It was accomplished way back in the days of Puppy 2.01r2 by Puppy contributor "pakt", with yours truly serving as the first successful test-monkey; I have even booted Puppy 1.08r1 this way. I believe Puppy was the first-ever Linux distro to be bootable this way.

But I must say, pakt's original WakePup2 boot floppy is far easier to understand and use than the WakePup floppy the current Puppy 4.1-alpha-5 creates.

Raffy was, I believe, writing at least partially with tongue in cheek. He is well aware of the need for small, simple distro's. Just look at the ones he serves...

[raffy]

Net-booting - success with Puppy 2.16 on May 20, 2007:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16439&start=15

Feel free to check Barry's news archive for items that you're interested in: http://puppylinux.com/news/

This is just to inform, otropogo. Your views are very much welcome - hope others will give theirs too.

[otropogo]

How many potential Puppy users do you think will have internal (non-USB) flash drives?

Hundreds of millions, every schoolchild in China in fact, if Intel Corporation gets its way. You see, the Intel Classmate (Intel's OLPC competitor) has an internal flash drive.

Get real ! Every schoolchild in China is a potential Puppy user? Better get cracking on the Chinese character support....

Modern flash drives, meaning those made since about mid-2006, have wear-levelling algorithms, so burnout is not an issue anymore. Even in 24-7-365 use, expect it to last several years--effectively the same life expectancy as a hard disk, since by the time it fails we will have converted over to using something else anyway, multi-terabyte holographic-storage cards perhaps.

Sit! Pay attention! Raffy was going on about the merits of USB-connected flash, not flash drives.

And unless I've missed some recent announcement, booting from pcmcia-based flash (or network, or scsi),even with a floppy boot disk, is still just a fond wish in Puppy land.

Heh...wanna bet? It was accomplished way back in the days of Puppy 2.01r2 by Puppy contributor "pakt", with yours truly serving as the first successful test-monkey; I have even booted Puppy 1.08r1 this way. I believe Puppy was the first-ever Linux distro to be bootable this way.

But I must say, pakt's original WakePup2 boot floppy is far easier to understand and use than the WakePup floppy the current Puppy 4.1-alpha-5 creates.

Than the current 4.1 alpha 5?

How about 4.0, 3.98, 3.01, 3.01 retro, 300, 2.17, 2.16,etc? Over the past couple of months I've tried the wakepup floppy of every Puppy version currently downloadable, and NOT ONE will boot from anything connected via pcmcia.
.
Yes, Puppy's "record" of past achievements is impressive..

Unfortunately, all too many of these features seem to exist only in the menus and "documentation". I don't see what point there is in bragging about some questionable past functionality that's "no longer' available..

If it was possible for Wakepup to boot Puppy from PCMCIA in ver. 2.01r2, why is it impossible to make it do so now in currently used versions 4.x, 3.01, or even 3.01 Retro?

[otropogo]

Net-booting - success with Puppy 2.16 on May 20, 2007:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16439&start=15

I've looked at this thread, and searched it for some mention of net booting via pcmcia, but found none...

Feel free to check Barry's news archive for items that you're interested in: http://puppylinux.com/news/.

went there, done that. Are you perhaps referring to the supposed fix of pcmcia announced past March?

This is just to inform, otropogo. Your views are very much welcome - hope others will give theirs too.

Thanks so much!

And this is just to inform you that MY views are, whenever possible, informed by painstaking, time consuming, and mostly thankless testing, not just by reading some announcement or claim and passing it on as fact.

[Sit Heel Speak]

Get real ! Every schoolchild in China is a potential Puppy user? Better get cracking on the Chinese character support....

Here is what Chinese looks like in Puppy 4.1-alpha-4. You need to find the kai-pc.ttf font and download it into the /usr/share/fonts/default/TTF folder, and change your /etc/fonts/local.conf to accommodate the language specification; my short-version local.conf, which I posted toward the bottom of the first page of my How I Do Fonts in Puppy thread, works just fine. It is unnecessary to do the modifications to libfreetype which I disclosed in that thread, all Puppy needs is the font and the paragraph for Chinese in local.conf. I didn't bother telling the Joe Window Manager to use the Chinese font in the window title and taskbar, because this was just a test, heck I don't even read Chinese, but I'm sure it would work.

Chinese fonts are not included in Barry's "stock" Puppies by default simply because they are huge, e.g. kai-pc.ttf occupies 14 MB.

As for what the open-sesame magic combination is to make the current version of WakePup boot 4.1-alpha-5 from a usb stick (yes, I'm talking about a stick, not a drive, as you will notice if you click on the link in my previous post) in a pcmcia adapter, that will have to wait. First I must accommodate Barry's request that I write a how-to on how to make Puppy boot from scsi. Unfortunately, the mainboard died last weekend on my T21; I have since replaced it, but, I also decided while reassembling the case to super-glue a crack in the keyboard bezel back together, on the right-hand edge beside the arrow keys. I got a little careless with the super glue, and glued the DVD reader firmly into the multi-purpose bay. And so, to stick the floppy drive into the bay, thus to work on solving the 4.1-alpha-5 usb/pcmcia boot floppy mystery, I must first do some cautious disassembly and razor-blade work...