Should WINE be disbanded?

[ljones]

Ok, you might wonder what this post is all about, and to be honest this is just an argument for something -- the disbanding of the WINE project. Instead, why not have those programmers who work on WINE write specific linux applications instead?

But why stop and disband WINE? Well, let me go back a couple of years. In the late 1990s, I had one or two linux distros (in fact, I bought a pack of 6 linux CDs at a computer faire). The linux distros had X windows, and also something called wine which could run a *very* few windows applications, most noticbly notepad and calculator.

Today however we have many linux applications; CD burners, WPs, spreadsheets, web browsers, video and audio apps; all of these at least exist in some fasion even if only they are a command line version. There are only a small amount of programs today which can only be found on windows which have absolutely no linux equivilent. But WINE has barely advanced in all of this time; WINE at a rough guess might run between 1 and 10% of all windows software. To be even usable, 30% would be a good target but that level of compability would take a very long time indeed.

I can understand the reasoning behind WINE. Back in the late 1990s, it would have seemed a very good idea indeed to do something like WINE. Here was this OS called Linux with a simple X desktop and some old X-windows programs, but really not much else. A Large proportion was still command line only - and that even included some of the X programs! So what better way to get some sort of applications into linux then to make use of someone else's? To get a sort of compatibility layer in there so linux at least had some apps to run. Surely it had to have been a good idea - use windows programs and make linux better that way by at least having apps to run.

But WINE hasn't caught up with being able to run all windows programs; in fact (me personally) I've not seen wine run even some basic windows programs absolutely 100% perfect. All too often the end result is some odd obscure message or programs don't work at all. There seem to be very few easy ways of setting up WINE too - plus at least some of the DLLs used by windows can only be had *illegally* if you have no copies of windows.

I do understand that writing WINE must be a very complicated task and I'm *not* demanding that WINE should be disbanded, just trying to point something out is all. But since microsoft are never going to release any programmitcal information about windows is there really any point in carrying on with WINE? Wouldn't we be better off with more specific linux apps? Surely it would be better to have proper linux apps than having to retrofit ms-based software onto the linux platform. And with the latest relese of windows imminent, MS can quite easily change the goalposts, relegating WINE to running just very ancient old windows programs -- certianly if MS changes the goalposts with the next version of windows, WINE won't stand a chance. If it's taken all these years to get between 1 and 10% of all windows apps to run, what chance running the new windows software?

The wine authors are obviously competent and experienced programmers and know a great deal and of what they do. But surely we're just fighting a loosing battle with WINE and maybe the energies should be directed elsewhere?

I wonder what anyone else thinks of all of this?

ljones

[Pizzasgood]

One word: Games

Sure, there are plenty of games for Linux. But I want to play the ones for Windows. It's like saying, "No, we don't have hockey. Instead of making a skating rink, come play football." I don't care if there are other games for Linux, I want my StarCraft!

As a gamer, Wine is perfect. It allows me to have the many free Linux games and my Windows games all on one free os. That means I have more money to spend on food and games instead of on Windows.

Also, regarding this:

And with the latest relese of windows imminent, MS can quite easily change the goalposts, relegating WINE to running just very ancient old windows programs -- certianly if MS changes the goalposts with the next version of windows, WINE won't stand a chance.

Well, that means they can finally get the old stuff up to date.


Those are just my thoughts. I'd be with you if it weren't for the games. Anything else should have a Linux equivalent, but games are an entirely different ballgame. No pun intended.

[ljones]

That's actually a good point. Why didn't I think of it!

The only fly in the oitment with that one (games) is that (and I'm not 100% sure!) dosen't wine or winex only run a small handful of games? And I was reading about some sort of argument within winex or its users --- complaning about payments being made to winex going to subsidise mac users (I'm guessing there's a mac version of winex too or something similar).

Only thing with the old windows-based stuff is that people are going to see the stuff on wine and compare it to a "new" windows platform and think it's about as advanced as the sort of grot you find in the dustbag of your vaccum cleaner after you've finished hoovering the house. Also microsoft might make formats incompatible, so even if the old versions worked ok under wine they might not (for example) be able to open a new word document -- Word 95 won't ever be able to open a "Word vista" document x.x

ljones

[rarsa]

why not have those programmers who work on WINE write specific linux applications instead?

"Have them work on something?" who will have them do it? we?

ljones I read with a smile your idea. I don't know what to make of it.

Some people are doing it for fun, some others to learn, some others because they are hired by codewavers, or CrossOver.

Even if nobody else wanted to use wine. If some developers want to do it. Why would we have something to say about that. It's their choice.

And actually many people are using it.

I have a better idea: Let's have ljones stop eating icecream. (just kidding, I don't even know if you like icecream)

[MU]

Some weeks ago I read, that wine has the problem, that there are not many coders working on it.

If you compare the speed with which Linux-apps evolve, you could expect that there are less than 1% of all Linux-Coders working on wine.
So it would not change a lot, if they would code "real" Linux-programs instead.

Wine can be helpfull for migration.
There are some applications, that will not be ported to linux in the next time, like Datev (it is a kind of Tax-system with onlineconnection to a server).

If you have a small bureau, you can replace MS-office with OpenOffice or SoftMaker Office.
But you will have no Datev (and there will be no free developpers porting it, as the program itself does not help much, you also need the rest of the environment, like the dongle that helps to build up a special kind of network).
So if you rely on Datev, you just have one choice: Windows.
Wine might be the solution: if you can run datev with it (don't know if it works), you could switch over your bureau to Linux.

Mark

[Pizzasgood]

dosen't wine or winex only run a small handful of games?

I dunno. I just tried wine for the first time yesterday, but it ran StarCraft okay. A little slow, but that's to be expected, especially with an old computer like mine. Next on my list are Age of Empires, Roller Coaster Tycoon, SimCopter, SCURK, and SimCity 3000. I know better than to even consider trying SimCity 4. It's not even supposed to run on my system in Windows, but it does anyway.

[ljones]

Yep, it's entirely the choice of those who are working on WINE weather or not they do this or not. It's not my choice at all - but there's just the sense that they might be wasting their time. But I thought about this again today, and prehaps there's an even more dangerous and sinister point.

Right now, microsoft is collecting patents on software ideas in the same way it picks up dollars. Microsoft already have a very large collection of patents. It's concievable that they know about the activities of WINE and are simply waiting for those working on it to dig themselves nice and deep, and then microsoft can pull out a patent list as long as your arm and sue those people working (and maybe running) WINE .

Also with regards to games and WINE/WINEX are we making the mistake made all those years ago when X had few programs so in order to make linux better one idea was to use others' (i.e. windows apps). Let's have real linux games -- if you buy a windows game and run it on WINE it shows up at the shop you bought it from as a windows sale . If you buy a linux game, it'll show up as a linux sale .

BTW, I don't eat much ice cream!

ljones

[Pizzasgood]

Like I said, it's not a matter of Linux vs Windows games, it's a matter of what game you want to play. Using Linux and running Wine is actually better, as you are then more likely to get Linux games, but you can still play the occasional Windows game that you like. I have a GameCube because I prefer it to PS2, so I play GameCube games. If there was a PS2 emulator for the GameCube, I'd get one. Then I could play the ocasional game that is only for PS2 that I want. If a GameCube version came out, I'd get that, as it would run better.

Like I said with my sports analogy. I don't want to play football, I want to play hocky. I also want to live in the south (not really, but assuming I did...). So, I'm going to build a skating rink.
(American football, I mean. Soccer-the real football- is much better)

Wasting time, eh? I'm sure that's what a certain Gates would tell us about Puppy. In a sense, even living is wasting time, because you'll die anyway (unless you're me). Mom tells me my comics are a waste of time. I tell here that watching Lost is a waste of time. Trying to get people helping the transition to Linux and expanding the pool of games and software is also a waste of time (no offense, you brought that one on yourself ).

Patent wise, they could try suing Wine, but they can't touch the users. Ely Whitney made almost nothing for the cotton gin, since most people built their own instead of buying from a factory. You can't charge someone for using something that's patented, you charge them for selling (or maybe even distributing, I'm not sure) something tha's patented. Wine would have to pay, not us. If I got a camera for free, I wouldn't have to pay patents. Sony pays the patents, and jacks up the price to make up for it. But that's just a price increase, not a patent fine.

[Nathan F]

Wine uses NO microsoft code. Wine runs a whole lot better than you think. It DOES help people and companies migrate away from Windows. There are MANY programs written for Windows that have no Linux eqivalent. And the more Microsoft tries to sue, the more people remember that they are still a monopoly and trust that was supposed to be split up and never was. Wine helps a great deal to level the playing field and foster competition.

Having said all that, Microsoft probably will make Vista entirely incompatible with all previous versions of Windows, but this will actually hurt Windows users more than it will hurt Linux users running Wine. If you're using Wine to run a handful of applications you still have the option of trying the native Linux programs, while everyone else will get caught in the endless upgrade cycle.

I have always said in this forum that I feel the native Linux programs are superior, in functionality at least. You have to admit sometimes that the Windows applications have a better user interface. This is only very slowly changing. I use the Linux programs 99.99% of the time and I'm happy to do it, but my wife still finds a lot of them to be very confusing.

I want to point out that since I released a Wine package it's been downloaded 10-12 times per day every day for weeks now. There is just simply so much demand for it that Wine will be a fact of life for quite some time. Let the people who really want it have it I say. I packaged it to be a nice helpful guy because I knew that people wanted it, not because I felt I needed it for my own use or work.

I think that Windows is eventually going to go the way of the dodo anyhow, and here's why. Apple is making the next version of MacOS an x86 system. This will be the biggest competition that Microsoft has ever had, and Apple is just too strong of a company for them to strongarm out of the market. Combine this with the explosive growth of Linux in the far East and Microsoft has a large but ever shrinking share of the market. The monopoly is coming to an end, one way or another. They will eventually have to compete based upon the merits of Windows and as we all know here that won't take them very far.

Nathan

[Pizzasgood]

You know, I'm almost rooting for Windows. The reason is that the only way they can win is if they change their approach and develop something truly awesome. MS certainly has more resources than the people developing Linux, so if it used them, it should be able to develope something far superior to Linux. It would cost money, of course, but you'd be getting a better product. The way I see it is that if you pay for something, it should be better than the free equivalent. This seems to be entirely opposite of the current situation.

Why can't a multi-billion dollar corporation out perform a couple poor geeks? Because the corporation is focusing on making money, while the geeks are focusing on making a better product. In order for the corporation to continue, it needs to change its focus to a better product, which should be far easier than extinguishing a free program spread across the world. By making a better product, they would automatically gain more sales, and thus more money.

Maybe MS will see this. If not, it will crumble and wish it did. Either way, I win, because I can use Puppy for free or use a superior os (if it's ever developed) for money. But I would rather see better stuff. Why settle for less than the best possible?