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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
DEVELOPERS to CONTRIBUTORS (STAKEHOLDERS) :)
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John Doe

Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 1689
Location: Michigan, US

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 01:29    Post subject:  

alienjeff wrote:
ttuuxxx wrote:
HairyWill wrote:

Who gets a say? I think we all should

<snip>

How should future collaboration be organised? Simple Vote via locked forum where only a select list of trusted individuals have a vote.


So everyone gets a "say," but "only" a "select" list of "trusted" individuals get to vote?

How arrogantly clever, ttuuxxx!


almost like watching a benign dictatorship mold into a democratically labeled communist organization, isn't it.
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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 02:52    Post subject:  

At the moment, Puppy is developer led.

That is where it can stay if we have a developer willing to put 4.2 together. This will mean most of the work will be with the Developer (Barry has been given a LOT more coding help from others lately).

The 4.2 developer will have to understand coding and how to put together an ISO base but does not necessarily have to do much coding themselves. It is still a lot of work, just updating packages etc.

By using a release ISO often model (if possible), we can test and only would lose a weeks work if say the ISO was uploaded regularly and a need to change developers occurred (unlikely but possible) . . .

This is the preferred model that Barry used and was used in the successful community editions that came to fruition as 'official' Puppy releases.. An extreme example of this was Puppy Linux 2.03. Hacao did ALL the coding, added Open Office, released one test version and then the final Official Puppy version.

I keep getting this impression that some people want to 'change everything',
in fact small incremental changes can be added as they become available on the forum. So all that is needed for 4.2 is someone prepared to put together what IS available..

People I know are capable of this from past experience are BarryK, MU, Pizzasgood, John Murgha, Warren, Nathan, Hacao, Raffy, Tronkel and some of the Puplet creators who want to 'step up a notch'

So it is up to one of those to step forward and say yes I will have a go.

Maybe BarryK will surprise us with a plan - he often does Wink

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 04:23    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:

Quote:
So it is up to one of those to step forward and say yes I will have a go.


Problem is, people who really understand what it takes to "have a go" know exactly what is involved in trying to step into Barry's shoes.

Unquantifiable hours compiling, scripting, testing, bug tracing, repair and thinking out new innovations. Building an ISO takes about 10 mins on a medium speed machine using Unleashed. This is the easy bit - anyone can do it - you don't need to be much of a developer for that. On the other hand, building on OS from scratch is a job for heavyweight developers only.

We don't actually have anyone who can do what Barry has done though. The time factor alone would put most people off - even if they had the will and the expertise to get the job done.

With Barry retiring, the Puppy project is in "damage limitation mode". This means, that if the project is to survive into the future, difficult decisions will need to be taken and flexibility will also be required. We may have to consider options that were never necessary in the past, simply because Barry did everything necessary to produce the all-important base versions - without which there would be no Puplets CE's etc.

A project committee may well be the only temporary solution available, in order to ensure that the project doesn't keel over. In the meantime, we should be looking round to try to find a Chief Implementer-cum-Project Director who is worthy of the task. I don't believe there is anyone within the community at present, who has such a track record and who also has the time to devote to the task.

Last edited by tronkel on Sun 21 Sep 2008, 05:50; edited 4 times in total
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4764
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 05:39    Post subject: The young ones  

I vote for the young ones to have important roles in the development of Puppy Linux. The really young ones here are students, like Pizzasgood, cb88, SirDuncan, {please add names that I missed}...

ttuuxxx is quite young, too, but that's compared to the old me. Smile He will still be the most prolific puplet and package creator no matter who we choose as leader.

When youth is combined with merit (contributions to Puppy development), probably Pizzasgood will easily top the list, as he has been contributing to Puppy development since his high school days. FYI, his latest completed project is PCPuppyOS, a commercial-grade puplet.

Pizzasgood is already used to managing affairs in Puppy - note that he has high privileges in this forum, and is able to moderate difficult discussions. He can also easily shift gears to publishing a blog, as he keeps his own website.

Many regulars in this community know how to be selfless, and would easily get into the routine of supporting a leader, while also steering/influencing others into a favored direction of development. This will not be difficult as the Puppy ideals are clear: more computing power with less resources.

PG (ok, I shortened the name) is already used to scanning this forum for new developments, so all he has to do is write notes about the direction Puppy is taking, and to request help by volunteers in certain areas of development.

Meantime, the community will be happily chugging along in innovative work, and what it produces may or may not get into the official Puppy.

Development will not be about committees, but about innovations that are put together by a leader, to build one official version.

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 07:11    Post subject:  

My general policy with developers is to keep out of their way and let them get on with their magic.

Pizzasgood has a great attitude and I would love him to do it . . . even if it takes him 6 months to a year I know he can deliver . . .

You can find an old interview with him here:
http://tmxxine.com/wik/wikka.php?wakka=PizzasGood

Pizzasgood has a proven record for diplomacy, skill, innovation and flexibility.

'There is another' [said in my best yoda voice]
However when I ask about CE versions - 'no time.'
No harm in asking again.
Pizzasgood are you up for it? Smile

One of the strangest experiences was when I had Vector Linux on my HD (it was meant to be used for developers and I was role playing . . . Wink

I managed to run and use Vector Linux programs from the Puppy CD
This has now been formalised in the 'underdog' system - that I know very little about. Is there any traction in this route?

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 08:48    Post subject:  

What about re-visiting the idea that someone in the forum had (I've forgotten who it was), about encouraging computing faculties at universities to use Puppy as a basis for assignments?

I remember that Ttuuxxx seemed to be against the idea at the time, but it needs further consideration in the light of Barry's retirement nevertheless IMHO.

The idea is that the students, (under or post-grad) could develop or fix some aspect of the Puppy OS as an assignment for their Operating Systems module in their course. This could have the following benefits for the Puppy project:

1. It would further promote awareness of the Puppy OS
2. If the students can produce useful fixes/addons to the system, these could be integrated into Puppy, if deemed suitable and/or useful by whoever/whatever is in charge of Puppy at the time.
3. This could save time and effort and probably produce innovative ideas - something that is badly needed for the base versions.

This wouldn't mean giving up any control of Puppy to any university whatsoever - that would continue as normal.

@lobster:

I always liked Underdog myself - it was fun. I'll have to check to see if it still there in Puppy 4 series.

I doubt if making small incremental changes to 4.1 base version and calling it a 4.2 can be justified though. There is no particular problem with doing that as such, but such an updated version would be better designated as a CE, Puplet, or Revision addition rather than as a base version. Base versions always contain more under-the- hood upgrades or fixes. This is where the above idea about Uni assignments could come in handy. Fixes from the research done here, if suitable, could be included in a base Puppy version.

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 10:34    Post subject:  

Quote:
encouraging computing faculties at universities


I think it is a great idea Jack (Tronkel). After our PSIP (or was it Skype) conversation I looked for the link but could not find it . . .

I will get on to the Open University people (who should OF COURSE be using Open Software) - I started the SOUL page when I found they did not support Linux
http://tmxxine.com/wik/wikka.php?wakka=LinuxOU

I managed to do a short course only using Linux (Puppy in fact)
and it was great

I believe HairyWill works at a University - maybe he can start teaching Linux instead of MS or perhaps this would be possible with specialized courses?

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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 18:44    Post subject:  

one of the best things about puppy has always been that it is inclusive

rather than divisive

i would like to see puppy remain open and friendly

please remember this when picking a [ugly word alert] 'leader'

that being said, i think my pizza is here

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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 18:55    Post subject: A Litter of Puppies?  

I think when Barry started Puppy he did not ask a committee the best way to structure the organization. He just did it. And the people who wanted to follow followed.

That is what I love about the open source world, people follow voluntarily, leaders are chosen because people think they are worth following. Hey bugman, i first wrote that this was the way the Lakota did it also--they followed who they chose for the task at hand. The "Big Chief" was an invention of the Europeans to have someone to sign the land over to them.

Is that what is going to happen here anyway, that we each follow who we choose to follow? If so, why not accept it. Puppy is Barry. Now let us see who else has a clear vision and the wherewithal to make it happen and to interest others in it. ttuuxxx has a clear vision and he says he has the time to make it happen; he has been prolific with Additional Software. cb88 also seems to have a clear vision which is not compatible with ttuuxxx's. Is this a bad thing? Why do not they and others state their visions and then we (the rest of us) put our energies where we choose to put our energies. Would a litter of puppies be a good thing, and a worthwhile gesture of honor to BarryK.

Could we use this site or the 0rg site to birth those new puppies? Natural selection will operate of course.

Speaking of 4.2, I would hope that perhaps we could test 4.1, debug it, and refine it as 4.2 in another gesture to Barry, to make it as good as it can be and a worthy progentitor to the puppies to come??? I woud put some energy into that.
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 20:15    Post subject:  

i like yer thinking, playdayz

nothing but puplets

each on its own path

but helping each other grow through central collective sites such as the forum and wiki
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Trobin

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 907
Location: BC Canada

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 20:45    Post subject:  

So what you are saying is that once Barry steps aside development on the core Puppy should cease?
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bugman


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 21:13    Post subject:  

i am not opposed to the idea

but then again i'm still using 1.07

newer puppies have left my hardware behind

[lowest common demominator]

in a cloud of puplets, a beard of stars, a flock of seagulls

[i need a drink]
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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 21:22    Post subject: Not necessarily Trobin  

I don't know Trobin, I wan't thinking of that necessarily, I would like to see 4.1 refined and debugged and polished for 4.2, and that is at least several months and then several months for 4.2 on its own. Maybe things would be clearer by then about the way to proceed. But I think someone or a group with a vision would want to pursue that vision and what do we do if there are two or three people and groups that have incompatible visions and all wanted to have a claim on Puppy? That is what it looks like to me now.

Ah, let's say, I do want to see Puppy 4.1/2 continue to be developed, but perhaps in three or more different ways. Would there still be a Puppy? Yes. Barry's. The new pups could have dog names to show their heritage.
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4764
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 22:03    Post subject: paths  

Let us try some possible paths:

A - mainstream Puppy (cutting-edge core);

B - Puppy anchored on a big brother distro (3.xx?);

C - Puppy optimized for single-core/old PCs (2.xx?);

D - Puppy for Ultra Mobile PCs (Barry's new niche).

Each of these paths would be moving forward based on innovations created and collected through the community sites, and cross-fertilize each other.

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alienjeff


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2291
Location: Winsted, CT - USA

PostPosted: Sun 21 Sep 2008, 22:27    Post subject: Re: paths  

raffy wrote:
Each of these paths would be moving forward based on innovations created and collected through the community sites, and cross-fertilize each other.

Fertilize? Nice visual ...

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