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HairyWill
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#76 Post by HairyWill »

it is good to talk

What does voting mean?
What is your criteria for being allowed to vote?
This forum has over 10,000 members with probably only a few hundred active. If you use forum membership as the voting mechanism then ballots can easily be stuffed. This then destroys the aim of what it was you were trying to achieve in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for democracy, but if we are going to do it then shouldn't we ensure that the process cannot be hijacked.

I would be in favour of electing a small committee (no more than 20 members) on an annual basis and allowing them to make all but major decisions.
Will
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ttuuxxx
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Re: votes

#77 Post by ttuuxxx »

mysticmarks wrote:Although i agree with ttuuxxx about the definative vote being a core group decision, i also believe that the community should voice a response.

Here's a thought. Initially the core gathers the choicest options, then a community poll is run for a given time, say 1 week. After that the core development group privately polls based on the top 2 or 3 off of that list for the final decision.

Simple community involved but ultimately still allowing the most pertinent reasoning and logic to be used.

Community picks a few from a bunch(if there even is a bunch to do that particular task), then the core group singles out our new star.

2 polls, 1 reasonable solution in the end.

Thoughts?
I'm with it as long as every one else is :)
ttuuxxx
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tronkel
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#78 Post by tronkel »

All this discussion about voting worries me. Why vote at all?
In the past, one person, i.e. Barry made all the decisions. These decisions were never questioned because they were always viewed by the community as being correct anyway. I'm talking about base versions here. CEs and revamps are maybe a different story.

There is no avoiding the fact that Barry's stepping-down has left a major hole in the way the Puppy project operates. Building any OS is no task for any "almost" qualified people - even if they are excellent developers per se.

What the Puppy project needs, is someone to whom all major decisions about what the OS build consists of, can be left. This would be the same guy who also does the innovation, the programming and the building. He would be described as Mr Puppy - the buck stops with him. Forget committees and voting.

Where this chief builder of Puppy can be found is not yet clear. Hopefully he can be found somewhere somehow.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

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ttuuxxx
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#79 Post by ttuuxxx »

tronkel wrote:All this discussion about voting worries me. Why vote at all?
In the past, one person, i.e. Barry made all the decisions. These decisions were never questioned because they were always viewed by the community as being correct anyway. I'm talking about base versions here. CEs and revamps are maybe a different story.

There is no avoiding the fact that Barry's stepping-down has left a major hole in the way the Puppy project operates. Building any OS is no task for any "almost" qualified people - even if they are excellent developers per se.

What the Puppy project needs, is someone to whom all major decisions about what the OS build consists of, can be left. This would be the same guy who also does the innovation, the programming and the building. He would be described as Mr Puppy - the buck stops with him. Forget committees and voting.

Where this chief builder of Puppy can be found is not yet clear. Hopefully he can be found somewhere somehow.
Hi tronkel

The problem in the past with Barry for myself was, icons, but 4.0 did improve a lot with the overall look. But the 16x16 icons still need to be changed.
Jwm was never changed,
Seamonkey during Firefox's 2&3&4 series, was just wrong, Firefox was more secure, faster, but didn't have the small email or small web development. as Seamonkey did. Seamonkey has never been the main choice of Linux users, It always been Firefox, But Barry had the voice and only went with opera once because it had email, But if we had a voice at the time, Firefox would of been the main choice by everybody.
If we had another dictator it would be the same. We need a voice and for once and I hope we don't pick firefox 3.0 series, That just doesn't work right in puppy.
But 2.17 does:)
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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playdayz
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Middle Ground?

#80 Post by playdayz »

Would this be a possible middle ground between those who favor a big brother distro and those who favor compiling puppy ourselves. How about putting some energy into making puppy easy to compile for? Then, it seems to me, we would have the advantages of both sides, good availability of programs and programs built for our OS.

polymath
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#81 Post by polymath »

it is good to talk

What does voting mean?
What is your criteria for being allowed to vote?
This forum has over 10,000 members with probably only a few hundred active. If you use forum membership as the voting mechanism then ballots can easily be stuffed. This then destroys the aim of what it was you were trying to achieve in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for democracy, but if we are going to do it then shouldn't we ensure that the process cannot be hijacked.

I would be in favour of electing a small committee (no more than 20 members) on an annual basis and allowing them to make all but major decisions.
Seconded.

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cb88
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#82 Post by cb88 »

ahem..... if someone would download the latest T2 from svn and download the entire package cache and .bzip2 it i would like to have a go at compiling a base

I'm not sure i can do it but its worth the try

also the files that whoever uploads the source in should be 1 gb each or smaller

is there a way to write a script to mv dirs in to a new dir untill that dir has X mb in it? then .bzip2 it? that would be real handy

im just throwing it out there.... i have the CPU time but internet access is a real pain for me io can download large files but linux and svn are pretty much a no go here at school
Taking Puppy Linux to the limit of perfection. meanwhile try "puppy pfix=duct_tape" kernel parem eater.
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Caneri
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#83 Post by Caneri »

Hi cb88,

Post to me the url and I'll try to put them on the Florida server.

A pm or email would be best but here is fine...how many files? and how do you need to access them?

Best,
Eric
[color=darkred][i]Be not afraid to grow slowly, only be afraid of standing still.[/i]
Chinese Proverb[/color]

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ttuuxxx
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#84 Post by ttuuxxx »

Caneri wrote:Hi cb88,

Post to me the url and I'll try to put them on the Florida server.

A pm or email would be best but here is fine...how many files? and how do you need to access them?

Best,
Eric
ok maybe not, ran our of memory,lol
thats what i get for running live,
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

bugman

#85 Post by bugman »

i may have to do my own puppy

name it after one of those prehistoric dogs, possibly 'dire wolf'

for antique computers, like the ones i have in my basement that i cannot find keyboards for anymore

you people are leaving all of us trash collectors behind...

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ttuuxxx
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#86 Post by ttuuxxx »

bugman wrote:i may have to do my own puppy

name it after one of those prehistoric dogs, possibly 'dire wolf'

for antique computers, like the ones i have in my basement that i cannot find keyboards for anymore

you people are leaving all of us trash collectors behind...
The best place to find those old din keyboards are at pawn brokers, the ones in Australia have just about every model of keyboards. The best part they are really cheap. :)
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

bugman

#87 Post by bugman »

the pawnbrokers of eastern montana are under the impression that they deposit gold in their toilets

in other words, no bargains [unless you're selling]

additionally, the local pawnbroker is very computer-shy, and the thrift shop refuses to take them at all

i need a car...

muggins
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#88 Post by muggins »

Bugman driving a car! Absolute heresy...Bugman flying an autogyro...that's what I imagine.
Look up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane!
It's Superbugman!

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cb88
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#89 Post by cb88 »

@bugman how is making it possible to optimise a custom version of puppy for your exact CPU leaveing you behind?

if you have a 486 there not much helping ya but say a PII would benefit greatly or even a plain pentium could benefit

how many people are using 486 hardware anyway the ebox users and who else?

also bugman you could put a sign in your yard ... wanted semi dead zombie 'puters

@caneri and ttuuxxx were you guys trying to download the T2 source cache in ram ROFL just the base for puppy is 1GB+ the WHOLE thing is multigb i imagine
Taking Puppy Linux to the limit of perfection. meanwhile try "puppy pfix=duct_tape" kernel parem eater.
X86: Sager NP6110 3630QM 16GB ram, Tyan Thunder 2 2x 300Mhz
Sun: SS2 , LX , SS5 , SS10 , SS20 ,Ultra 1, Ultra 10 , T2000
Mac: Platinum Plus, SE/30

Caneri
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#90 Post by Caneri »

Hi cb88,

Nope...I just was asking if I could help...just waiting for your recommendation.

eric
[color=darkred][i]Be not afraid to grow slowly, only be afraid of standing still.[/i]
Chinese Proverb[/color]

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ttuuxxx
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#91 Post by ttuuxxx »

cb88 wrote:@bugman how is making it possible to optimise a custom version of puppy for your exact CPU leaveing you behind?

if you have a 486 there not much helping ya but say a PII would benefit greatly or even a plain pentium could benefit

how many people are using 486 hardware anyway the ebox users and who else?

also bugman you could put a sign in your yard ... wanted semi dead zombie 'puters

@caneri and ttuuxxx were you guys trying to download the T2 source cache in ram ROFL just the base for puppy is 1GB+ the WHOLE thing is multigb i imagine
Cb88 I have 4gigs of ddr2 800 ram plus a 20gig swap,and 1.8 terabytes of hard drive space, I lol I overkill my puppy and always compile live.
ttuuxxx :)
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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playdayz
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NO!

#92 Post by playdayz »

Seamonkey during Firefox's 2&3&4 series, was just wrong, Firefox was more secure, faster, but didn't have the small email or small web development. as Seamonkey did. Seamonkey has never been the main choice of Linux users, It always been Firefox, But Barry had the voice and only went with opera once because it had email, But if we had a voice at the time, Firefox would of been the main choice by everybody.
No ttuuxxx. I cannot accept this. Puppy was/is Barry's project and it was/is his perrogative to do anything he wanted/wants to do with it. I believe strongly that nobody else was owed any choice in the matter of what he included or didn't iinclude. He did listen to people; I know that. But the final choice was/is his, for whatever reasons he wanted, and whether or not he chose to publicize those reasons. (It doesn't even matter that there were some very good reasons to use Seamonkey--it was Barry's call, pure and simple.)

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ttuuxxx
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Re: NO!

#93 Post by ttuuxxx »

playdayz wrote:
Seamonkey during Firefox's 2&3&4 series, was just wrong, Firefox was more secure, faster, but didn't have the small email or small web development. as Seamonkey did. Seamonkey has never been the main choice of Linux users, It always been Firefox, But Barry had the voice and only went with opera once because it had email, But if we had a voice at the time, Firefox would of been the main choice by everybody.
No ttuuxxx. I cannot accept this. Puppy was/is Barry's project and it was/is his perrogative to do anything he wanted/wants to do with it. I believe strongly that nobody else was owed any choice in the matter of what he included or didn't iinclude. He did listen to people; I know that. But the final choice was/is his, for whatever reasons he wanted, and whether or not he chose to publicize those reasons. (It doesn't even matter that there were some very good reasons to use Seamonkey--it was Barry's call, pure and simple.)
It was kind of good that he did use Seamonkey, because that made a explosion of variants and furthered on puppy development inadvertently. First thing I changed in all my Variants was Seamonkey and most others did also.:) Just because we could :wink:
That was always a main topic about a year ago, "how to install Firefox "
Now its "How to uninstall Firefox 3.0"
LOL ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
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HairyWill
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#94 Post by HairyWill »

tronkel wrote:All this discussion about voting worries me. Why vote at all?
...
What the Puppy project needs, is someone to whom all major decisions about what the OS build consists of, can be left. This would be the same guy who also does the innovation, the programming and the building. He would be described as Mr Puppy - the buck stops with him. Forget committees and voting.

Where this chief builder of Puppy can be found is not yet clear. Hopefully he can be found somewhere somehow.
Yup voting has all sorts of problems.
What are the criteria for being allowed to vote?
Should MU receive the same voting rights as joenewbie?
Who do you trust as returning officer?
What is the mechanism for voting?
Does this mechanism have a cost that causes a barrier to inclusion?

None of these consider the problems of managing a project whose direction is determined by the popular vote.

Considering that you don't have a 'chief builder' in mind I wouldn't fancy holdng my breath waiting for one to turn up that matches your criteria and wants the job.

What should puppy do next?
ttuuxxx wrote:The problem in the past with Barry for myself was, icons
We clearly have very different views on what puppy's priorities should be, and that is fine.

As puppy has progressed it has gradually started to include the small connecting features of daemons, services, widgets, status monitors and other tools that eat your cpu cycles on both windows and many major linux distros. One of the reasons that early puppies ran well on minimal hardware was because they passed responsibility for these functions onto the end user.
If you wanted to mount a partiton, then you had to start MUT and do it yourself
If you wanted to know the state of your battery then you had to load the right models and cat /proc/acpi/batteryBAT0/state
I wonder what difference these things make to the minimum effective hardware.
How much cpu do you save by having a black desktop background?
There is a compromise here between having a distro which is highly efficient but is hard to use unless you have a good level of understanding and between having one that 'just works' for someone who is clueless. I do appreciate that the expert can always find ways of turning this stuff off but often it is less effort to stump up for a couple of hundred extra Hz of cpu cycles.
Does anyone fancy building a "service manager" to control CUPS, pup_event, volume control, freemem, blinky, battery monitor, ROX pinboard, xload.

A Different Model
How about this? Barry gives the rights to use the puppy name to a number of people who have been releasing genuinely innovative (at the fundamental level) puplets for a while. Each of these people can release a version whenever they like. The people I have in the back of my mind would be capable of agreeing version numbers (names) amongst themselves. They have previously demonstrated the ability to release high quality supported puplets. These people have previously incororated cutting edge bits of other peoples's work into their own releases. There would be no pressure on them to release versions on any paticular timescale.

This would in effect lead to a number of cross-fertilising forks that were all allowed to use the official puppy name (if they wanted to). I suspect that these people will just do their own thing anyway, they have a history forging frontiers one their own regardless I would just like to do my best to support them in their efforts.
playdayz wrote:Puppy was/is Barry's project and it was/is his perrogative to do anything he wanted/wants to do with it. I believe strongly that nobody else was owed any choice in the matter of what he included or didn't iinclude.
I agree strongly, but I don't really want to put a dfferent person in a similar postion with someone else's baby.
Will
contribute: [url=http://www.puppylinux.org]community website[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/6c3nm6]screenshots[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/6j2gbz]puplets[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/57gykn]wiki[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/5dgr83]rss[/url]

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ttuuxxx
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#95 Post by ttuuxxx »

HairyWill wrote:
tronkel wrote:
Where this chief builder of Puppy can be found is not yet clear. Hopefully he can be found somewhere somehow.
Yup voting has all sorts of problems.
What are the criteria for being allowed to vote?
Should MU receive the same voting rights as joenewbie?
Who do you trust as returning officer?
What is the mechanism for voting?
Does this mechanism have a cost that causes a barrier to inclusion?
Well Hairy I state my idea on the voting thing a few times
When you make a forum thread you have an option having a poll included. That poll is basically a voting room. If we have a locked forum where only select people can enter and vote. That way we don't get any joe-blows messing up our totals, Plus you can't rig the vote and you can visit the locked forum anytime time and see how the poll/voting is going. I think its simple yet efficient and secure.
Plus we would have the same poll in the forum for everybody to vote and see how they differ.
Probably would only be around 20 people or so.

Also when I made the icons remark is because I design a lot of the graphics I use myself and some of the default 16x16 icons look like that belong on windows 3.1. Graphics are really a part of what I like to do, So when I see something that looks dated, I feel like it should be changed.
Actually right now I'm trying to get a Job teaching Graphics at the local Tafe. The same one where I got my I.T diploma.

I wasn't trying to put down the development of puppy what so ever, When I look at puppy and the main programs included such a large amount of the programs are from developers, probably more on here then any other Linux distro. Thats what I like about puppy the most, the unique programs, it gets you thinking about code, and makes you want to learn more.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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