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XP-installer for Puppy 1.0.6
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Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 22
Location: Stockholm

PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov 2005, 21:17    Post_subject:  

Yeah, they should, but talking for myself ( mostly ), they haven't worked when hal.dll have been the problem. But i agree that they should, in MS_theory so to speak. Actually as i've understood it from googling, they dont, never ever...

That is, when having trouble with your hal.dll
Otherwise i've used them from my dual_boot with good results

And my next question will be.

What do you think the 'e... keenevil empire' thinks about linux ?


It may, or, may not have been a forseenable problem for microsoft but,
as i see it, they don't give a flying sh..t when the main problem lies with...

(btw: my IR keyboard drives me nuts, it keeps losing letters, when i try to correct it, it corrects me, by putting in letters that i've already written of as lost 4ever)

Ahh well.

I have every geeks nightmare/dream depending ..

A PaceBlade Laptop 600 Mhz with IR keyboard FireWire DVD/cd, USB mouse. With drivers handwritten exclusivly for WXP. I got it as a gift from my brother, the only conclusion i can draw from that is, that he really must hate me Wink

No Mind
Never matter

PaceBlade Laptop 600 Mhz with a (soo_slow) IR keyboard, FireWire_dvd/cd, usb mouse: dual boot Xp/linux
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Nov 2005, 13:16    Post_subject:  

Can't rstore if you can't get into Windows.
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Waikiki Websurfer

Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Waikiki Beach

PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov 2005, 19:07    Post_subject: Using latest Wingrub version --> DANGER  

Wingrub has a known bug which can make Windos XP unbootable.

Please see: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1062928&group_id=104188&atid=637224

--- BEGIN Quote ---

WinGrub changes Windows Disk Signature bytes
The four bytes from offsets 0x1B8 through 0x1BB in the
MBR are called the Windows 2000/XP Disk Signature or NT
Drive Serial Number.

Please See here:

One of the ways these values are used by Windows is
to associated drive letters with mount points/disk
volumes. If they are changed, a user may find that he
can no longer log on to Windows (this happened to me),
or his drive letters may be mixed up.

To fix it, I copied the 4 byte signature (from my
backed up MBR) to the first hard drive sector by using
Linux Disk Editor (lde) from the Recovery Is Possible

--- END Quote ---

Also, of interest:

To me, it seems like this project has been abandoned, as there has been no activity for more than a year. Wingrub might be potentially very dangerous to use if there is no way to recover.

My background:
I became interested in the "Win XP Puppy installer" because I would like to put Puppy onto the second (Currently Win XP NTFS) partition of a laptop harddrive inside Sony VAIO PCG-C1MV. The big problem in installing any other OS than the resident Win XP Home that came with the laptop is that there is no easy way to access the hard-drive other than in Win XP environment. The BIOS will not boot from an external CD/DVD firewire or USB drive (you would have to buy a SONY VAIO fw drive with a special power-plug-connector from CDD to the laptop to do that), will not boot from USB and will not boot from internal memorystick (or so I've read). There is a "network boot" option, but I do not have the optional dongle for NIC interface and it's unlikely that wireless would work with that option, and don't intend to get a PCMCIA NIC card to just try it...
Also, the laptop is not very easy to open and (I've read) is risky to put back together again due to bad connectors inside so as to rip out HD and stick to another laptop -- although I might consider trying to do this one more time...
What I really need, is an install method from inside Win XP (Home) that is guaranteed not to fry my Win XP -- because I cannot reinstall XP or do anything if XP won't boot due to no CD drive, no floppy drive, and BIOS
boot option limitations (complete lack of options..).
That's why I'm interested in the Puppy Win XP installer, but using the installer, I might have Wingrub wreck my hard drive.

Any help / comments / suggestions?
I would really like to get Puppy on this machine but looks to be next to impossible to do it anywhere remotely "safely" -- and I'd rather not get stuck with a completely unusable machine... (Although with Win XP, it is almost that.........)


__O__ \/\/ \/\/
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Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Sun 20 Nov 2005, 03:32    Post_subject:  

Reply is in the thread of the older installer:

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Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue 22 Nov 2005, 15:38    Post_subject:  


As you know from my posts elsewhere I prefer to install Puppy with XP manually and I have not used your routine, although I think it is a fine contribution to the kennels. However, I am getting concerned about the problem of access to Windows XP being lost after someone uses your routine. Will it affect me if I upgrade my PC and, more importantly, should I stop recommending my approach to others if there is a problem? My manual installation simply copies a version of the grldr file from grub4dos (http://freshmeat.net/projects/grub4dos/) to the root directory of my hard drive and I call it up from boot.ini . I actually took my grldr from Gilles Ruymbeke on the Knoppix forum so I am not sure which version it is. Does your installation routine do anything different? Looking at documentation for Wingrub it seems there are 6 ways of it installing grub, including, I think, like my approach and also installing to MBR. What does your installation do? - it seems from an earlier post of sas3k that it might involve c:\boot\stage1 so I am not sure it is the same as my approach.

In the post of Waikiki Websurfer he suggests the problem is with the Disk Signature bytes being changed, but if we are not messing the MBR how can this be? I am wondering if that warning is associated with one of the installation methods in Wingrub that we are not using!

While Waikiki Websurfer says the Wingrub project seems dormant it is clear that grub4dos is very active, the latest release being 14th November. However, I was disturbed to read the following in the readme of this latest version:

*** !!!!!!!! NTFS Will No Longer Be Supported !!!!!!!! ***

Notice! In the future, we will remove NTFS support. For Windows users,
please create an FAT partition and place GRLDR and menu.lst
there. From now on, please don't report bugs relevant to NTFS.

Someone reports that Windows XP with newer SPs and Windows
Vista have intentionally broken the compatiblity with many
things(including GRLDR). So you will get into trouble with
these systems.
Is the Evil Empire trying to make it more difficult to install Linux! Without details of what the problem is, it is hard to know whether there is a real difficulty, or whether there is a touch of paranoia in the above warning.

By the way, I run an OEM Windows XP Home with Service Pack 1 and have no problems with my grldr trashing Windows.

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Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Tue 22 Nov 2005, 16:45    Post_subject:  

my installation uses a file called "grubinstall.exe".

I don't know how it internaly works.

here is the faq.txt:

1 Q. I get "kernel panic,VFS unable to mount root fs on 07:07.

A. This is not related to the bootloader. You must complete the setup procedure. Boot to CD and type install or pick setup in the bootloader menu.

2. Q. I get to the word "GRUB_" flashing underscore cannot type.

A. The first thing you should try is to run c:\boot\install.bat manually from a command prompt. This will enable you to see any errors that may occur you can also redirect the output to a file with this as well.

3. Q. I get something about block list failed when running install.bat from a command prompt.

A. 3.1. Are you using a dynamic disk? This will not work you will have to boot from the CD and that may not work either but that is a different issue.

   3.2. Are you using any disk compression or encryption? This also will not work get rid of it and reinstall. You probably will not be able to use Topologilinux at all with this.

   3.3. Check to see if c:\boot\stage1 and c:\boot\stage2 exist. try replacing them from the installation media.

   3.4. Do you have any hidden partitions or is /boot not on the first partition of the first drive. To fix this you must edit c:\boot\install.bat.

what you need to edit in install.bat is the line

grubinstall -d (hd0,0) -1 c:/boot/stage1 -2 c:/boot/stage2 -m c:/boot/menu.lst

the part you are interested in is the -d (hd0,0) this is grub notation that represents your partition. (hd0,0) is the first partition of the first ide drive, (hd0,1) is the second partition of the first drive, (hd2,4) is the first logical drive on an extended partition on the 3rd drive. More on this notation can be found at http://www.gnu.org/manual/grub/html_node/Naming-convention.html#Naming%20convention

This still requires some guesswork the best way of determining the correct partition is with a grub bootdisk. Here is how to make one

in windows at a command prompt. with a blank floppy in a:
c:\> c:\boot\grubinstall -b -1 C:\boot\stage1 -2 C:\boot\stage2

in Linux you can copy the stage1 and stage2 files to a folder and as root

dd if=stage1 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 count=1
dd if=stage2 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 seek=1

This will not work with all versions of the bootloader If it freezes at the word "GRUB_" then you must try another version. The stage1 and stage2 files must be freshly compiled versions (or fresh from CD or .gz or .zip file that have not been modified with grubinstall.exe or by installing them natively

When you boot to a Grub floppy you will get a grub prompt.
you can type
find /boot/stage2
this will return the location of your files in grub notation put this in install.bat

4. Q. I get a grub prompt grub> _ (flashing underscore can type) instead of a menu.

A. Make sure c:\boot\menu.lst exists open it with notepad to make sure it is a valid file. If it is missing or corrupted replace it from the CD. If you have converted your drive from fat32 to ntfs the problem is most likely due to the GRUB NTFS driver not being able to read the converted file system. there is currently no fix for this.

5. Q. I have windows 9x, Me, can I use the bootloader.

A. The bootloader setup is designed to work with NTLDR. NTLDR is only available in NT, 2000, XP. There is currently a way to do this see 98bootloader HowTo. Or use the loadlin method.

and here install.txt:


   you need to compile these files under CYGWIN
   get GRUB, for example in the directory /usr/local/src/grub-0.93
   install these files in grub-0.93/ntfsboot
   run "make" in the ntfsboot directory


1) get a compiled stage1 and stage2 image and put these in C:\boot
   for example compiled on a linux machine

2) add the following line to the file C:\boot.ini


   you may need to do

      ATTRIB -R -H -S C:\boot.ini

   to make the file visible and writable and

      ATTRIB +R +H +S C:\boot.ini

   to revert the attributes of the file

3) run grubinstall
   This will update the embedded blocklists in the files stage1 and stage2

   You should rerun this utility after moving/changing the files stage1
   or stage2 and after running tools like defragmentation

   grubinstall [-d device] [-1 stage1] [-2 stage2] [-m menu] [-l] [-a]
   grubinstall [-s] [-1 stage1] [-2 stage2] [-m menu] [-l] [-a]
   grubinstall [-b] [-1 stage1] [-2 stage2]
   grubinstall [-i file] [-1 stage1] [-2 stage2]
       -d C:                  : partition where the files are
       -d (hd0,0)             : partition where the files are
       -1 C:\boot\stage1      : boot sector
       -2 C:\boot\stage2      : secondary boot loader
       -m /boot/menu.lst      : grub boot menu
       -l                     : force LBA mode
       -b                     : make boot floppy
       -i boot.img            : make boot disk image
       -s                     : scan partitions
       -a                     : alternate grub partition name for menu

       device can be a disk or GRUB partition identifier
       stage1 and stage2 must be paths to win32 file names
   The defaults are such that if you put the files in C:\boot
   you can simply go for "grubinstall"

4) uninstall
   just delete the C:\boot directory, and remove the entry from C:\boot.ini
   as described in 1). No registry entries were used by using the tool.

I also thought: "should I continue this program?" when the first errors were reported.
But then I just got aware of how often such a tool was asked for, and how often people messed up their system by trying out files they found randomly in the web.
So my installer (and your manual instructions) will allow to say after some feedback and testing: "this is a version working ok for 99% of all users, so there is small risk of damaging your sytem. However you might be one of the unlucky 1%, so for that case, DO BACKUP before."
The installer currently seems to have reached this quality, for your manual install some more feedbackmight be needed (or compare the amount of downloads with negative feedback, as people are lazy giving feedback if it just does what it was supposed to do).

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Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2005, 14:57    Post_subject:  

Thanks for those notes MU. They have given me the clue that I needed to understand your installer a bit more.

Despite the button on you Installer window saying 'Run Wingrub', your method does not run Wingrub at all! Wingrub is a different project from Grubinstall, (or Grub Installer for Windows as it also appears to be known), and works in a different way.

If I have understood the instructions for Grubinstall correctly, (I have not implemented it you understand), then the files Stage 1 and Stage 2 are placed on the boot partition and modified by Grubinstall to work with NTFS. The Windows XP boot.ini file is then modified by your installer to call up Stage 1. I am theorising now but I suspect Stage 1 calls up Stage 2 directly, by calling the disk sectors on which it is located. This would explain why Grubinstall has to be rerun if the Stage 1 and Stage 2 files are moved or a defragmentation is carried out. It has to find the new disk sector location of Stage 2 because it MAY have moved. I must admit I consider this a bit of a drawback with the Grubinstall method. Looking at the posts for your 1.0.5 installer it would seem to have thrown up two problems. Sometimes it just drops out to the Grub prompt and sometimes you get a hal.dll file missing message. Irritating though these problems are there seem to be workarounds for the technically competent. Someone suggested the missing hal.dll message is caused by a corrupt boot.ini. This suggests it may not be your installer at fault but Windows or user error!

Now, if I have theorised correctly, Wingrub is completely different! It certainly has a different project leader so I am almost certain it is not related to Grubinstall. Wingrub, as I said in my earlier post, has 6 possible install options. The one I think is suitable for Puppy loading is the one which mimics what I do, put the grldr file on your boot partition in the same directory as ntldr. The Windows boot.ini file is then modified to call up grldr in the same way as it calls up Stage 1 in your installer. Because grldr is one file, I theorise again that somehow the Stage 1 and Stage 2 code is altogether within grldr. However, they will always be together so you can do a defrag without altering their relationship and grldr will still work. A plus point for Wingrub, I think. The other plus points are that it is 1 instead of 2 files and you don't have to run an exe file to make it all come together. A minus point is that you do have to put the menu.lst file in the \boot\grub directory, which you don't like.

Now, Waikiki Websurfer's warning applies specifically to Wingrub and therefore grldr. It MAY not apply to the Grubinstall method. I suspect it doesn't. What Waikiki Websurfer says about the problem, that it modifies the disk signature bytes, I cannot reconcile with my theories about grldr. However, I can reconcile it with an MBR install of Wingrub, because in that case Wingrub is obviously modifying the MBR. MAYBE that warning is not relevant to Puppy users running grldr.

That leaves me with the warning in the Grub4dos readme. There are no details of what the problem is here - just that there have been reports of problems. Not very helpful if you are trying to resolve the problem. Also, I don't yet understand the suggestion of Tinybit, the Wingrub project leader, to put grldr on a FAT partition. If it has to be in the same directory as ntldr and Windows is installed to NTFS that will be a little difficult!

Sorry for my ramblings. I just thought my investigations may be useful for anyone else treading this path. Remember, some of it is theorising, so I maybe wrong!

Can I suggest you might rename that button in a future release though - 'Run Grubinstall' rather than 'Run Wingrub'! It confused me and Waikiki Websurfer.

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Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2005, 15:56    Post_subject:  

Yes, I will rename the button for Puppy 107.
Thanks for the detailed clarification Smile

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