Puppy 4.2 Deep Thought Development

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droope
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#16 Post by droope »

WhoDo wrote:I don't have a problem with internationalisation of the menus, because it only involves modified .desktop files in /usr/share/applications directory.

OTOH, FULL internationalisation involves much more than that, and really should be in a dotpet or sfs add-on IMHO.
Translating the menu doesn't do much. Any person can read the english menu... The real issue comes when a non-english speaker wants to -for example- configure his network, or maybe his printer. Indications come there, but aren't readable for him...

The only thing that is needed in order to perform a full internationalization that isn't wasted every version change is to localize the scripts. Once localized, the .mo file would simply need to be modified a bit.

It is important that these scripts, once localized, are used in newer versions... Can someone guarantee that this happens once versions change?. If not, it is useless to localize them. (This has already happened before)


I think there isn't a lot more to translate, is there? Besides all aplications, I mean. I'm quite a noob :)


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ttuuxxx
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#17 Post by ttuuxxx »

For a full translation lets look at Glibc+Gcc they have a combined 11MB of bin files that don't compress really all that much, we would lose Gxine, abiword, Gnumeric because puppy goal has always been keep it under 100MB. We couldn't even use a full utf8 in English because of the bins would put us over the limit. What I've seen is a lot of community support for localizations and remastering of puppy just for that purpose:)
The most I could foresee in the future is the .desktop files being change. And if people want scripts changed, then if they give me the translations, I'll change the text? We are 4 mb under the 100MB threshold . But addition maybe sfs translation packs could be an idea. But we do need support from the other languages to translate. I've used online translation web pages before and they are really bad. I hope this helps, I'm not trying to stomp on anything, actually I'm trying to build some support so things like this might happen, but just in a way that follows puppy's main path. Well thats how I feel about it, Maybe not everyone.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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WhoDo
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#18 Post by WhoDo »

ttuuxxx wrote:I've seen over 200MB of images in mine, really I should send JWM a email about it also. We have talked about it before but nothing ever came out of it, maybe this time :?:
That would be a ROX problem, rather than JWM, wouldn't it? Either way, it is worth trying to fix for 4.2 IMHO.
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ttuuxxx
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#19 Post by ttuuxxx »

yes your right Rox it is, a typo ,LOL I've been dealing a lot with Icewm and Jwm, thats whats been on my mind.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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droope
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#20 Post by droope »

ttuuxxx wrote:For a full translation lets look at Glibc+Gcc they have a combined 11MB of bin files that don't compress really all that much, we would lose Gxine, abiword, Gnumeric because puppy goal has always been keep it under 100MB. We couldn't even use a full utf8 in English because of the bins would put us over the limit. What I've seen is a lot of community support for localizations and remastering of puppy just for that purpose:)
The most I could foresee in the future is the .desktop files being change. And if people want scripts changed, then if they give me the translations, I'll change the text? We are 4 mb under the 100MB threshold . But addition maybe sfs translation packs could be an idea. But we do need support from the other languages to translate. I've used online translation web pages before and they are really bad. I hope this helps, I'm not trying to stomp on anything, actually I'm trying to build some support so things like this might happen, but just in a way that follows puppy's main path. Well thats how I feel about it, Maybe not everyone.
ttuuxxx
Nono, i think we are not understanding each other. The right move here, in order to have the possibility to translate it, is that the program itself does not contain the text, and that the text is kept in a separate .mo file.

Then, if more people like me are willing to have a fully translated puppy and work towards it, they will be able to translate it themselves (and changes won't be lost every version change!).

This is what i speak of:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=26790

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#21 Post by ttuuxxx »

droope wrote:
ttuuxxx wrote:For a full translation lets look at Glibc+Gcc they have a combined 11MB of bin files that don't compress really all that much, we would lose Gxine, abiword, Gnumeric because puppy goal has always been keep it under 100MB. We couldn't even use a full utf8 in English because of the bins would put us over the limit. What I've seen is a lot of community support for localizations and remastering of puppy just for that purpose:)
The most I could foresee in the future is the .desktop files being change. And if people want scripts changed, then if they give me the translations, I'll change the text? We are 4 mb under the 100MB threshold . But addition maybe sfs translation packs could be an idea. But we do need support from the other languages to translate. I've used online translation web pages before and they are really bad. I hope this helps, I'm not trying to stomp on anything, actually I'm trying to build some support so things like this might happen, but just in a way that follows puppy's main path. Well thats how I feel about it, Maybe not everyone.
ttuuxxx
Nono, i think we are not understanding each other. The right move here, in order to have the possibility to translate it, is that the program itself does not contain the text, and that the text is kept in a separate .mo file.

Then, if more people like me are willing to have a fully translated puppy and work towards it, they will be able to translate it themselves (and changes won't be lost every version change!).

This is what i speak of:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=26790
You mean like I did with pidgin some time back now
http://puppylinux.ca/tpp/ttuuxxx/progra ... 1-locales/
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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technosaurus
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#22 Post by technosaurus »

I was playing around with the macpup addon and accidently got icewm & wbar combined down to 975kb... I was only shooting to get it down to 2mb but my internet was down & couldn't work on the web desktop so it got a buzz cut - that should be small enough eh?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 660#261660
ttuuxxx wrote:I was just thinking guys, If one of our skilled developers wanted a small task really something that would be handy is a filter script that every time a image thumbnail is previewed that it compares against a preset limit like 10MB max, once it hits 10MB it automatically empties the /root/.thumbnails directory. Some people especially new users probably don't know about this hidden directory and could be slowing there pc's down a lot. I know once you reset your pc it gets emptied, but people like myself which run live and leave it on 24/7 for like 3 weeks before resetting would have a heck of a lot, I've seen over 200MB of images in mine, really I should send Rox-filer a email about it also. We have talked about it before but nothing ever came out of it, maybe this time :?:
Thanks
ttuuxxx
or maybe a dialogue box that allows clearing that + browser cache, temp files,...
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].

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#23 Post by ttuuxxx »

technosaurus wrote:I was playing around with the macpup addon and accidently got icewm & wbar combined down to 975kb... I was only shooting to get it down to 2mb but my internet was down & couldn't work on the web desktop so it got a buzz cut - that should be small enough eh?
I personally never liked wbar or any of those type applications, They are more toys than anything, Not to say they don't have a purpose and that some people really enjoy them. I did like them for about 1 month around 5 years ago when I got one for xp, but after a month or so I was over it. Anyways nice size on the package :)
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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droope
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#24 Post by droope »

ttuuxxx wrote:
droope wrote:
ttuuxxx wrote:For a full translation lets look at Glibc+Gcc they have a combined 11MB of bin files that don't compress really all that much, we would lose Gxine, abiword, Gnumeric because puppy goal has always been keep it under 100MB. We couldn't even use a full utf8 in English because of the bins would put us over the limit. What I've seen is a lot of community support for localizations and remastering of puppy just for that purpose:)
The most I could foresee in the future is the .desktop files being change. And if people want scripts changed, then if they give me the translations, I'll change the text? We are 4 mb under the 100MB threshold . But addition maybe sfs translation packs could be an idea. But we do need support from the other languages to translate. I've used online translation web pages before and they are really bad. I hope this helps, I'm not trying to stomp on anything, actually I'm trying to build some support so things like this might happen, but just in a way that follows puppy's main path. Well thats how I feel about it, Maybe not everyone.
ttuuxxx
Nono, i think we are not understanding each other. The right move here, in order to have the possibility to translate it, is that the program itself does not contain the text, and that the text is kept in a separate .mo file.

Then, if more people like me are willing to have a fully translated puppy and work towards it, they will be able to translate it themselves (and changes won't be lost every version change!).

This is what i speak of:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=26790
You mean like I did with pidgin some time back now
http://puppylinux.ca/tpp/ttuuxxx/progra ... 1-locales/
ttuuxxx
I don't know exactly what you did, i mean using variables in the scripts instead of the actual text, with the possibility to modify the variables without modifying the script.

It would be a major step in internationalizing puppy...

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#25 Post by ttuuxxx »

Hi guys in the off topic area I made a post about broken SSL well puppy has always been about innovation I was thinking why not add some added security to puppy and also help packagers out at the same time, kind of a kill 2 birds with one stone idea.

Some months ago I came across an MD5 SHA-1 checker, called Gtkhash
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=258974
it basically checks the 2 sums, very quickly, actually instantly :)
and displays them in a box that you can copy and paste, which is handy for building packages to release for the general public.

But I've been thinking about the next evolution in pet package management. Below is an mock-up image for display purposes only, I don't have a working model and really wouldn't have a clue how to marriage the 2 apps together.

Ok how I envisaged was like this

Building packages
-whenever the dir2pet script is ran, it would output a MD5 + SHA-1 text next to the package so that package builders could paste the results to the forum when a package would be released maybe a file called PackageName-sum.txt

Installing a package

The pet package manager would have MD5 + SHA-1 capabilities already included and as soon as you click a pet it would look like below. Then the person installing the application could check the 2.
This would give the end user 2 things, a sense of security and a valid size check that the package was downloaded without error.
Theres on a few developers who I think could pull this off like Barry or Sigmund but if we did have this needed feature, It would make puppys package manager the most secure manager in the world. Well I never heard of this style of security on any package manager.
Also if we can't have this feature included in petget maybe just include the gtkhash pet in puppy and I could add it to the opening list of petget. Also a quick start in the rox right click menu would be ideal also.
Your call Whodo and developers alike.
ttuuxxx
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pet.png
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http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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#26 Post by Aitch »

2 good ideas

Like it :D

droope

I think this is excellent, and hope someone is able to implement it

Have you posted the idea over on the developer blog?

ttuuxxx

Spotted your GTKhash last time around - seem to recall having the same thought - like why don't we have this in Puppy before anyone else

Innovation gets you noticed - & copied :wink:

PS nice one on the Wbar size, Techno

Aitch :)
Last edited by Aitch on Thu 01 Jan 2009, 13:38, edited 1 time in total.

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#27 Post by ttuuxxx »

Whodo wanted a version of Wbar that worked with my new new icewm pet, I looked at technosaurus version, did some updates and then repackaged it, then I went back and removed icewm and the jwm2icewm and basically just left Wbar and the needed extras for icewm to work. Here's the pet.
Ps I personally also feel due to the size nature this package should be part of the repo but not included by default, I would rather see something like gtkhash included, There is a need by many to have added security and simplicity mixed together. Most new users have no idea how to check MD5 and now that SSL is broken we have no way of testing SHA-1 unless we use this sort of application, by default puppy doesn't have a check for SHA-1, well not I know of.
ttuuxxx
removed the wbar due to missing icons in jwm
Last edited by ttuuxxx on Thu 01 Jan 2009, 17:25, edited 1 time in total.
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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#28 Post by Aitch »

There is a need by many to have added security and simplicity mixed together
Aye to that, ttuuxxx :D

Whodo, please give serious consideration to this, please

Aitch :)

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#29 Post by ttuuxxx »

I found a very small command line alternative for Sha1 and 5 other formats, you can read about the release
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 030#262030
Basically the work the same as md5sum via the commandline but instead you type
sha1 package name followed by the extension
md5 package name followed by the extension
sha256 package name followed by the extension
etc
But the real nice thing is that it should be real easy and very small to add md5 and sha1 to the package manager :) or for someone build a gui for the bins, like PsumCalculator :)
here's the Sha1 & MD5 the rest you can find at the link
ttuuxxx
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md5.pet
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sha1.pet
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http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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#30 Post by pa_mcclamrock »

My 2 cents' worth on cutting bloat for 4.2: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 8&start=45

More generally, I would like it to be easier for users to uninstall anything that isn't strictly needed for the system to run. If I don't want, say, SeaMonkey, AbiWord, Geany, HomeBank, or Osmo, I would like to be able to get rid of them as easily as I can now get rid of packages I've installed. Might that be feasible for ordinary users who don't especially want to dabble in Puppy Unleashed (which is not quite as easy as uninstalling packages with PETget)?

David McClamrock
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#31 Post by WhoDo »

pa_mcclamrock wrote:More generally, I would like it to be easier for users to uninstall anything that isn't strictly needed for the system to run. ...[snip]... Might that be feasible for ordinary users who don't especially want to dabble in Puppy Unleashed (which is not quite as easy as uninstalling packages with PETget)?
PetbeGone does it, but it only masks the packages until you actually remaster. That is because the pup_4xx.sfs file is read only. All PetbeGone does is add appropriate .wh files to the next level of the initrd. It also requires 0pkgs_db-4xx installed or it won't know which files to mask.

Hope that helps, David.
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#32 Post by ttuuxxx »

An actual easier way would be like this.
when you say install Kompozer it makes a Uninstall file located in /root/.packages/kompozer-0.7.10.files
its basically a 17kb text file showing where everything was installed
yes 17kb, but compressed its 3077B so it would be very small on sfs
we could add say maybe 10 or 20 application files like abiword gxine etc then the user could uninstall the non-essentials via the puppy package manager. This does work when you remaster also, if you include /root/.packages/ during your remaster process you can uninstall applications you installed before the remaster, after you burn and boot your remastered cd.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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#33 Post by WhoDo »

ttuuxxx wrote:An actual easier way would be like this.
when you say install Kompozer it makes a Uninstall file located in /root/.packages/kompozer-0.7.10.files
its basically a 17kb text file showing where everything was installed
yes 17kb, but compressed its 3077B so it would be very small on sfs
we could add say maybe 10 or 20 application files like abiword gxine etc then the user could uninstall the non-essentials via the puppy package manager. This does work when you remaster also, if you include /root/.packages/ during your remaster process you can uninstall applications you installed before the remaster, after you burn and boot your remastered cd.
I don't think PetBeGone and 0pkgs-db are all that big either, so either way it would work. At the moment I'm trying to see how much I can bring the standard ISO down to while including conky, pwidgets and some icon themes. Due to problems with the 4.1.2 Unleashed package, I've resorted to building the first 4.2alpha from the 4.1.1 Unleashed core, so I'll have some manual edits to do first to get rid of the 4.1.1 bugs mentioned in Barry's blog. Then the building can proceed at full pace.

I'm pretty sure I can get the ISO in under 98Mb including the Deepthought eye candy and your icewm-1.2.36-mini version. I haven't seriously tried to reduce anything yet, so even 95Mb is easily possible.

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#34 Post by ttuuxxx »

Hmmmm

Don't forget to think about

Updated puppy package manager 20kb
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... h&id=13571

Parcellite 22kb vs Glipper, default enabled, even if you just have it enabled in startup for icewm :) That would make a very large % of us packagers happy :) Then it would only startup with icewm :)
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... h&id=13265

GTKHash 337.42 KB (would get more use than NoteCase)
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=32700

xarchiver 111kb +plugns if needed 88kb+283kb (i'll try to find a smaller 7zip bin)
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=37276

Small icewm+switch+newtheme 575kb
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... h&id=13759

heck of a list, boy did I ever put some effort in this release, All that and it adds up to like 1MB lol plus the addons. Well hope you use most of it :) ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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#35 Post by WhoDo »

ttuuxxx wrote:Updated puppy package manager 20kb
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... h&id=13571
Already in.
ttuuxxx wrote:Parcellite 22kb vs Glipper, default enabled, even if you just have it enabled in startup for icewm :) That would make a very large % of us packagers happy :) Then it would only startup with icewm :)
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... h&id=13265
Still under consideration
ttuuxxx wrote:GTKHash 337.42 KB (would get more use than NoteCase)
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=32700
NoteCase is already out
ttuuxxx wrote:xarchiver 111kb +plugns if needed 88kb+283kb (i'll try to find a smaller 7zip bin)
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=37276
Basic xarchiver is in to replace xarchive
ttuuxxx wrote:Small icewm+switch+newtheme 575kb
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... h&id=13759
Already in.
ttuuxxx wrote:heck of a list, boy did I ever put some effort in this release, All that and it adds up to like 1MB lol plus the addons. Well hope you use most of it
Don't stop there, mate. :P My pre-alphas are shaping up at 96Mb and I think you could help us to pare that down a whole lot more. I now have a working Puppy 4.2 ISO, but I'm not happy with its out-of-the-box setup - desktop icons all over the place, missing mime assignments, erk ....

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