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GtkDialog - tips
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 857
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2018, 22:51    Post subject:  

step wrote:
wiak wrote:
@step: Something wrong with your code line:

Code:
               <action>. "'"$0"'"


I use the quoting pattern '..."' "$varname" '"...' when I'm embedding shell fragments, such as variables expanding to pathnames, in other scripting languages, like gtkdialog and awk.


I have also often used that same quoting pattern to break things up so that wasn't the problem for me (probably used it in my domyfile app, cant remember where really), though your explanation of your intension in terms of its overall operation in this specific case is useful. No I didn't modify you example code at all - it just didn't work for me. I haven't had time to look into why.

Yes, I really think IUP is great. Has convenience advantages of yad and power of gtkdialog in a nicer syntax, and more power in addition to that. Alas, I too have been too occupied to use it further as yet.

Wiak
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2018, 05:57    Post subject:  

.
Last edited by wiak on Thu 07 Jun 2018, 08:58; edited 1 time in total
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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 6828
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2018, 22:42    Post subject:  

Hi guys,
Is anyone currently maintaining/developing an "upstream" gtkdialog? I thought thunor hadn't done anything on it for quite a while now.

I haven't followed this discussion too closely, so I'm afraid I may have missed a couple of things:
1. (not particularly relevant, but anyway:) any discussion of a context where this security concern was actually a real problem.
2. anyone actually suggesting that the changes in "gtkwialog" are undesirable, and current gtkdialog behaviour needs to remain the same.

It seems to me that:
- there is no upstream development , and
- there is some consensus that the old behaviour should be changed, and
- apps will only need relatively trivial changes to work with the new version.

If that is the case, forking seems rather gratuitous.
The world doesn't need yet another dialog program. It would be better for this to become upstream gtkdialog. Document and test the changes, get anyone interested to review it, and when it is ready release it with a new version number. We've survived changes in gtkdialog before; we can do it again.

Am I wrong?

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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4819
Location: Kingwood, TX

PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2018, 23:10    Post subject:  

https://github.com/01micko/gtkdialog
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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2018, 23:28    Post subject:  

Ah, thanks.
So it looks like Micko has taken over a very minimal "caretaker" maintenance role, and it would perhaps be worth having the discussion with him.

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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 857
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 00:31    Post subject:  

disciple wrote:
forking seems rather gratuitous.


Whoa!!! Now wait a minute! Whilst you suggest its adoption as a development of gtkdialog itself, that statement above is like accusation of theft. This is not avconv versus ffmpeg (!!!) and there were justified reasons for the decision (for now) to fork: basically the very many legacy gtkdialog applications, which would all need to be modified if, as rcsrn52 basically pointed out to me, would need to be modified if my simple but fundamental core change to gtkdialog was adopted in gtkdialog itself.

Others could have contributed to the discussion, or involved themselves in the discussion that already took place if they had wished. Fact is, as I earlier states, I was just trying this for my own interests and possible needs and with no intention of forcing something into gtkdialog itself, since that would have serious consequencies for the existing shell/gtkdialog legacy app developers (in terms of having to modify their code, when they understandably wouldn't want forced to do so). The following is just an extract:

rcrsn51 wrote:
I understand the issue. I was involved in the discussion when it arose several years ago.

But gtkdialog is a mission-critical piece of software. Before people start tinkering with it, I would like to understand the rationale.

wiak wrote:
I didn't manage to get my desired change to work anyway.

So patching the gtkdialog binary is now off the table?


wiak wrote:

I doubt if it was ever on the table for most people. I was just wanting a patched version for my own interest really and still do, if only to understand why gtkdialog doesn't accept bash -c "commandstring" (in <action> tags) as way of 'seeing' the export -f bash functions, when /bin/sh is dash Of course, were an improvement possible to gtkdialog without upsetting the apple cart more generally that would surely be good. I remember BarryK didn't seem to trust Thunor's first attempts to mod gtkdialog, but that is all water under the bridge now.

...

wiak wrote:
rcrsn51 wrote:
So "gtkwialog" could be added to Fred's repo as a separate item?

Then people who want to build new apps using it can do so, without worrying about side-effects on older gtkdialog apps.

Or people could gradually upgrade their gtkdialog apps to gtkwialog after proper testing.


Yes, that will be possible.


wiak wrote:
Gtkwialog operates somewhat differently in one core/fundamental way to legacy gtkdialog, which can result in some if not all existing bash/gtkdialog scripts needing several modifications to use it
...
Being a fork with diverged functionality gtkwialog has been given a different code name hence users can choose to use either legacy gtkdialog or this new gtkwialog as they see fit. People who have legacy shell/gtkdialog apps , who do not wish to modify them, will want to continue using legacy gtkdialog. In time it may or may not diverge further.


Frankly, if there is to be that kind of comment/suggestion of being 'gratuitous' then simply best I stop doing this development altogether; no harm done, let others develop how they will. You may not have meant what your comment implies, but comments like that at the very top take away from actual development work time and just throw spanners in works, sorry.

EDIT: By the way, there is also an issue, that gtkwialog may evolve further, which means its operation may end up differing even more from gtkdialog; I have previously stated that I my intention was to keep changes to the minimum because I want the interface to be as familiar to developers as possible (to make it easier for them to use it if they wish), but with the changes made there are some little extras that follow on naturally in my own wishes. Actually, one of my considerations was to try and better accommodate legacy applications, not to protect legacy gtkdialog, nor to threaten its core position in Puppy Linux, but simply to make app porting to the likes of Pristine Debian simpler for developers (and, particularly, simpler for myself). Gratuitous? No.
Anyway, for anyone at all who does disapprove of what has taken place, not much has taken place at all - consider it an experiment then that can be forgotten.

Last edited by wiak on Thu 07 Jun 2018, 09:00; edited 2 times in total
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 857
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 00:56    Post subject:  

By the way, prior to realising the changes would upset legacy apps, and prior to having worked out exactly (albeit providing a detailed plan/code idea) how to do what I wanted anyway, I wrote the following in this very thread:

wiak wrote:
NOTE: Yes, maybe I could implement this gtkdialog improvement easily enough usually, but I broke ribs and punctured lung, so cannot think as clearly as usual like alone being able to spend much time compiling/debugging in front of a computer... Later I suppose, but I wish someone else would implement this apparently very simple but much needed improvement. Maybe jlist/woodenshoe-wi or 01micko since they are used to modifying/compiling this code anyway???! Maybe someone could at least try it and test it to see how it goes?


There was no subterfuge involved in this 'experiment' at all.

You can 'have [a] discussion' with whoever you like; that has nothing to do with me. You jump the gun Sir.

Meanwhile, I will be getting back to my coding, for my own purposes only; the current mods I'm doing being in fact to make the product better support legacy apps despite my 'tinkering'.
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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 6828
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 01:26    Post subject:  

wiak wrote:
disciple wrote:
forking seems rather gratuitous.


Whoa!!! Now wait a minute! Whilst you suggest its adoption as a development of gtkdialog itself, that statement above is like accusation of theft

Sorry, but I didn't mean it like that at all.
Quote:
This is not avconv versus ffmpeg (!!!)

No, it is different in many ways. One of them is that upstream gtkdialog isn't under active development, so you're not even competing with the original developer or anything.
Quote:
and there were justified reasons for the decision (for now) to fork: basically the very many legacy gtkdialog applications, which would all need to be modified if, as rcsrn52 basically pointed out to me, would need to be modified if my simple but fundamental core change to gtkdialog was adopted in gtkdialog itself.

Sure, I'm essentially saying I don't think that is a good reason to fork (long-term). If other people think it is, then great - I'm not saying I'm right.
Quote:
Others could have contributed to the discussion, or involved themselves in it, that already took place if they had wished.

That's what I was trying to do. I assumed it wasn't a discussion that was over and done with, since you said you have made it a fork "for now".
Quote:
Fact is, as I earlier states, I was just trying this for my own interests and possible needs and with no intention of forcing something into gtkdialog itself, since that would have serious consequencies for the existing shell/gtkdialog app developers.

It sounded like the consequences were fairly minimal - have I missed something?

Your changes seem like they make gtkdialog behave much more sensibly.
Please keep up the good work if you can.

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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 01:45    Post subject:  

Okay, I'll wait see what the people who are described as on the Puppy Team themselves say about all of this (if anything). Despite you saying your own intentions were not meant to be taken the way they came across to me, I am sure there are some who agree with you in the sense of meaning exactly the attack it seemed to me (I accept you didn't intend that) - so it is probably good you brought it up. The BarryK (I presume) designated Puppy Team have been silent thus far, which is fine either way since I'm not in their team anyway. I am longterm user of Puppy and developed many a little app on it but have not hidden the fact I tend to now used Dogs more. I guess that might be unsettling for some, who from some comments would not touch a Dog with a bargepole! Strange idea to me - it is here on the Forum - I can't help but think there are many who use Dogs now and again, or maybe often, but don't dare to admit it. Sad life.

I prefer just to get on with my code now, personally if nothing else, anyway, whichever way that discussion goes.

wiak

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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 6828
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 02:24    Post subject:  

http://puppylinux.com/team.html
Quote:
Puppy Linux team is you!
...
Puppy Linux Team works on do-ocracy principle.
...
If you’re good at coding, help to improve various programs used in Puppy Linux.

wiak wrote:
[deleted whilst disciple has his discussion with 01micko]

It's hard to discuss while it's deleted, isn't it?
But gtkdialog isn't under active development, doesn't have a current homepage, and is long abandoned by the original author, so there's no way your work could seriously be considered a malicious fork.

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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 03:05    Post subject:  

disciple wrote:
http://puppylinux.com/team.html
Quote:
Puppy Linux team is you!
...
Puppy Linux Team works on do-ocracy principle.
...
If you’re good at coding, help to improve various programs used in Puppy Linux.

wiak wrote:
[deleted whilst disciple has his discussion with 01micko]

It's hard to discuss while it's deleted, isn't it?


Not at all. The discussion concerning the prealpha and even the earlier design is well-documented now on the forum.

Quote:
But gtkdialog isn't under active development, doesn't have a current homepage, and is long abandoned by the original author, so there's no way your work could seriously be considered a malicious fork.


Actually, I think you are being unfair to jlist/woodenshoe-wi saying that; though he admits his addition was minor, having mainly been done earlier by Thonor, it is only a short while ago that he updated Thunor's GTK3 additions.

Like I said, the reason I worked on this development was purely for my own interest without thinking about whether I was beholden to the designated Puppy Team or not or whether they would assume the right to have 'discussions' regarding what I could do or not. Of course, it did cross my mind to be careful to try and not upset anyone by this work; I do see a moral correctness in publishing openly and letting those with an interest to speak on the matter if they so decide, but waiting for permission to code was never in my mind of course. Though I am aware the project was abandoned by its original developer I am also aware that Puppy Team people (particularly 01micko forked it, but basically took ownership of it, and the longtime never seen Thunor did tons of work on it. Taking over custodianship of gtkdialog may or may not have been with official backing of the original developer though I imagine it probably was).

wiak
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 03:08    Post subject:  

It would also, be inappropriate for me to leave the prealpha testing download links in place (which I considered incomplete and not for any 'official' release), when it is obvious there may now be some discussion regarding the legitimacy (morally, justifiably, or otherwise) of the project (particularly in terms of it being forked/renamed).
EDIT: I'm not talking about legal concerns of course - the license allows forking, but not always morally or justifiable to do so - that is true.
Note that my concerns are not so much with your comments above disciple but I know the way this forum sometimes work, in terms of the way some people go crazy negative with discussion on matters like this.
EDIT: to a very large extent I want to keep out of such discussions, which in real terms I see as having nothing to do with my aims and work. Regarding your own original comments, like I said, I accept I took them in a way that was not your intention. However, I think you should read over your words in the sense that your talk of you having discussion with 01micko about my work, smacks of some kind of in cliche Puppy Team authoritarianism, is dubious to me, to say the least.
EDIT2: I'm not saying that there is such a thing as Puppy Team authoritarianism, by the way; not from 01micko's position or voice anyway - I know he has stated his belief that Puppy is a do-ocracy, but their are some of the 'Puppy faithful' who have stronger attitudes that verge on control IMO. Despite gtkdialog being a core Puppy app, gtkdialog is not Puppy.

Quote:
Stewards are not democratically elected. They are instead appointed by the existing stewards based on the revered do-ocracy principle.


EDIT: @disciple: It does strike me, reading that Puppy Team page, that none of the designated Stewards are people I've ever seen active on any of the Dog threads, yet it is stated that the Dogs are accepted as under the Puppy umbrella - would seem to me that a bit of representation might be a good thing, even if just for collaborative reasons. But maybe not. Don't worry about gtkwialog development, by the way, it's ongoing - only on download release in temporary suspension in case anyone has any actual complaint or demand about any aspect of the fork.

By the way, in 'doing' this project or any other, I do not mean I dream of becoming a Puppy 'Steward' of any sort; I woudn't want a responsible role like that ever - I like being a free agent to openly work on Puppy or Dogs or Tiny Core Linux or Slitaz and so on.
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wiak

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 05:03    Post subject:  

disciple wrote:

wiak wrote:
[deleted whilst disciple has his discussion with 01micko]

It's hard to discuss while it's deleted, isn't it?


Point taken, my comment was too harsh and I have now amended it. Nevertheless, I have decided to at least temporarily suspend/delete the prealpha downloads links posted, since I think you have brought up something that some others may feel a need to discuss amongst themselves so I hope they do that now and get it over with. I'm not saying I won't publish later anyway (and realise you yourself do want it published as a non-fork), but for the moment I'll just continue my development work at home and let others voice their opinions without having to worry that my prealpha program is an assault of some sort or an official release in any way.

EDIT: On second thoughts, I've changed my mind. I'm re-instating the pre-alpha download links. Whether the fork/rename is considered acceptable to some is irrelevant to me. I feel it would be remiss of me to deny anyone on the forum to chance to try this out while it seems to be stable and work as intended. It is still only released for testers, with the usual caveats, and not in any way an official publication - hence the version: prealpha...
I changed my mind also, partly because I notices that TazPup has reverted to using /bin/sh -> busybox ash, and gtkwialog might prove very useful there in getting legacy Puppy gtkdialog apps to work.

Having said that I do hope anyone who does object to gtkwialog has their discussion now and finish that.

wiak
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mistfire

Joined: 04 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 09:56    Post subject:  

@wiak has a point about gtkdialog issue. It is hard to port puppy applications to other distro using the current gtkdialog scripts without modifying it. gtkdialog does not follow what interpreter is using in a script which is crucial in my TazPup. If sh -> bash then the installer.cgi of tazpanel doesnt work and puppy apps work. If sh -> busybox then the situation was reversed. installer.cgi works but puppy applications does not work because it cant call exported function even #!/bin/bash was set.

I hope that someone found the best solution to fix this issue.
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wiak

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May 2018, 10:20    Post subject:  

mistfire wrote:
to fix this issue.


The way I'll be modifying my own apps such that they run on either bash or dash or busybox ash system shells is here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=993434#993434

An alternative is to simply re-write the legacy shell/gtkdialog app to not use bash export -f functionname. However, since lots of apps (certainly all of mine) do use export -f, I prefer to modify them using gtkwialog though currently that is just being developed/tested in what I've designated as prealpha status. I haven't made any official release; just provided download link of the prealpha binary in case anyone wanted to test it. Works and seems stable though.

A few tips on using gtkwialog are given here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=993437#993437

But overall, there has not been much practice at doing such app conversions so tips and few at the moment.

wiak
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