How to set up a Puppy Linux Cybercafe

[raffy]

I have just tested freeNAS and it immediately allowed remote control with GUI (user admin password freenas).

[ecomoney]

Thanks for the heads up Raffy, I think we really need something that will be able to load share the internet connection, check useage stats, web filter, firewall and stop p2p traffic too as part of the solution. Though I think they both have their place at the cybercafe (see below), I really would just like one machine and a "single point of failure". This would mean they would only have to make sure one (hardened linux) p.c. was working the entire time.

FreeNAS seems a very interesting project though, and Im glad you brought it to my attention for another project. For recycling p.c.'s at our "workshop" I would love to do away with cd's altogether. A freeNAS box would allow us to boot puppy and install to the hard disk (using files on the FreeNAS server). I think the people at the cybercafe may well want something like this there, for wealthier travellers who have virused/broken laptops. Im sure with a bit of training they would be able to do the same there. For home setups, it seems an excellent use for an old laptop with a broken screen, which can be got on ebay for a song, and will use very little power while left on overnight bittorrenting.

Im still getting nowhere with the Smoothwall through lack of a network hub. This is the rough schematic of the cybercafe as it stands (excuse the poor ASCII graphics). Obviously there are a lot more p.c.'s in the real thing.


[MODEM]
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[NET. HUB]
/ | | \
/ | | \
PC PC PC PC


I want eventually to place a smoothwall box here, with tftp booting enabled.

[MODEM]
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[SMOOTHWALL]
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[NET. HUB]
/ | | \
/ | | \
PC PC PC PC


It should then just be a matter of setting each PC to netboot in the bios and off we go. I think will need crossover cables between the smoothwall and the hub(downstream) and modem (upstream).

The problem I have in testing is that I dont have access to a network hub back here. What I need to know is if I can just test the tftp function of the smoothwall by using a much simpler setup...



[SMOOTHWALL]
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PC

I think I will need a crossover cable (thanks Raffy!) between the two. I have in the past, when short of a crossover cable, cut into a normal cable and swapped the Orange and Blue (I think) crossed pairs over, and wrapped everything back up with copious amounts of insulation tape. Im not suggesting this for the cafe....but it has got me out of a scrape or two.

Will this work to get the testbed up and running? And when I take the smoothwall box to the cafe for a demo will it function in the same way through a hub?

This is the only solution I can think of for now.

[Aitch]

Rob

AFAIK crossover cables are only needed PC to PC with no network DHCP to sort out connection assignments, therefore straight links will do for modem/smoothwall/router connections

btw, I have picked up 24 way 100Mb Lan Routers for £10 inc. on ebay

You may find this useful:-

http://blog.lxpages.com/linux_network.html


Aitch

[Dougal]

There's something I don't understand about your planned setup (though I might just not understand the netbooting properly):
You plan to have the machines boot when the users want them, running in ram with no save file, right?
So what about the basic settings? You can't really expect them to go through the xorgwizard etc. every time they boot...
Or will you have some basic. ro, save file on each machine just with the basic configuration (or maybe a remastered initrd.gz -- but then you'll need one for each machine...)?

Did I miss something?

[raffy]

Amen to that, with little changes:

.. crossover cables are only needed PC to PC with no network HUB, therefore [the usual] straight links will do for modem/smoothwall/router connections..

As to Dougal's question, parameters can be passed in the TFTP server (in pxelinux.cfg) re the keyboard and even the screen resolution. I guess for the mouse, too, but I have not yet tinkered with that - note that 4.1.2 pauses to confirm the mouse selection.

Any particular parameters would help ecomoney's setup? What about the mouse choice, can the display of mouse alternatives be suppressed?

[dinky]

Firstly, great idea. Secondly, I haven't read all of this thread, so some of this might already have been said. I've often thought about something similar with Puppy linux, however I hadn't considered the netboot method. That's got lots of potential. Here's another option:

Rather than using the netboot method, you remove the hard drives, and in their place use a solid state flash drive, one that's locked and can't be written too. This could be as simple as a usb card reader, with a locked sd card plugged into it behind the glass. It can be read, but not written to. Each card is configured specifically to that particular pc, so that on bootup no questions are asked, and they are automatically connected to the internet. This could be done as a remaster, or by creating a save file. Remember that the sd card is locked after installtion, so it's not possible to write to the save file anymore.

A very simple solution, here are the benefits:
- very easy to do. Potentially anyone who knows a little about puppy linux could implement it, and no extra code needs to be written.
- leaves plenty of room to create remasters specific to your needs. For instance, perhaps the pinboard only contains a web browser and word processing program, nothing else.
- Simple documentation could explain the need to power off the pc after use, or more code can be written so that logging out would destroy a users session, and all their data.

Here are the disadvantages:
- requires someone to be onsite to upgrade the sdcards for new versions, bug fixes, etc.
- may require some coding to implement advanced features, depending on what's needed.

The biggest issue is new sd cards to upgrade, however, there's plenty of ways to deal with this. One option would be for you to custom create new sd cards each time you need to upgrade puppy linux. This would create some waste (old sd cards, which could then be recycled, reused, etc), but is very easy to implement. All that would be required would be for staff at the cybercafe to remove the old cards, and pop in the new ones, making sure they stayed locked. You would simply have to create them, then mail them in. The cafe could even post back their original cards if they wanted to reuse them, but sd cards are so cheap these days, there's probably not much point.

Totally different tack to where your heading, which will also work eventually. Just a thought, no offence taken if you don't use it. Good luck, I think you're on the right track.

~dinky

[ecomoney]

You can't really expect them to go through the xorgwizard etc. every time they boot...

Why? Isnt that puppy linux's design? Isnt puppy linux supposed to friendly to "linux newbs"

You have totally hit the nail on the head Dougal. One of the purposes of this cybercafe project is to provide feedback to the puppy linux project, as well as is puppy linux's mission is to provide a simple to setup and setup linux system for "linux newbs".

I totally agree , the xorgwizard isnt anywhere near friendly enough for non-linux-techies, and it needs some serious revision if puppy is going to fulfil its origional mission statement. The question is...why hasnt this usability flaw been corrected by now?

I have booted hundreds of different computers with puppy linux, and each time I set up the xorgwizard I have thought "Why do I have to continually just press [ENTER] on all of the xorgwizard screens. The xorgwizard, with nearly no exception, just picks up the defaults and works......so why present the end user with all this complicated extra information about "X", graphics drivers and mouse types etc.
Puppy linux has NEVER failed to autodetect the correct mouse, and why this has been put back into 4 series Dingo is a mystery.

Its my belief, from my own observations, Puppy Linux would be a more a more successful operating system if these options (xserver, resolution, mouse type) were presented as an "advanced setup" configuration, that was presented as a choice, on a time delay, before the xserver started for example.....after the initial bootup, the screen should clear of bootup messages and display.

Code: Select all

Puppy linux will now attempt to automatically configure its graphics. Press [ESC] (escape) now in the top left of your keyboard to interrupt autoconfiguration and enter the graphical settings manually. You will need to do this if puppy linux has failed to start automatically in the past on this computer setup.

Auto-configuring in [5].....[4].....[3].......[2]......[1]......

In the background, the xorgwizard would prepare the xorg.conf with default settings i.e. with the xorg graphics server, and the default detected mouse type. The screen resolution is most often often autodetected from the monitor, especially the type of monitor (LCD or CRT). If the screen resolution for lcd is not autodetected, then 1024x768 should be requested.

Pressing escape will run the current text-based xorgwizard.

After the xorgserver starts, puppy linux should display a graphical startup screen, where the screen resolution can be adjusted with a mouse and a slider, and a location entered (perhaps using a graphic of a world map?). This sets the "locale" as well as the keyboard layout. This would be of particular use in the cybercafe, as people from all nationalities come and are used to different keyboard layouts.

I realise this strategy may not be popular with more traditional puppy developers, who understand the various video modes and xservers and prefer access to low-level controls. It will be VERY popular with normal "linux newb" computer users around the world however....a linux distribution that, in the vast majority of cases....."Just works....No hassles".

It would take a very far-sighted developer, who take Barry's origional mission statement seriously, to put their own preferences to one side....and actually produce this much needed feature that will make Linux as an OS much more popular

[Aitch]

Rob, I sort of agree
However too many *nixes just go for broke & fire up the highest res it can, which often fails
800x600 is a safe, if large starter for virtually any box, IMHO
After it starts, then adjustment screen could popup asking if you want to tune it
Real problem is too many variables in hardware

Aitch

PS I put out a shout for tester to help you with networking stuff, he says by w/e maybe, OK?

[raffy]

Good points, Robert (ecomoney). Am sure help in coding is coming.

Having seen dinky's (exploratory) comments above,I suddenly wondered if you really need a smoothwall PC for firewall when you can have an able router with integrated firewall (already low-cost nowadays). All you have to do is configure the router for that. It is a service enterprise, and the users deserve the maximum connection speed, which can be helped by avoiding bottlenecks upstream.

[dinky]

Casting my vote for a simpler start up like ecomoney suggested. Please!!!!! If I could code it, and use it for my own distros, I would. I fully agree, Puppy Linux needs to be taken further. It's just not there yet.

~dinky

[Lobster]

It is easy to say - autoc-onfig res - but not so easy to implement because of the variety of cards and monitors. It would therefore add to Puppys size, maybe requiring other programming languages (if using another distros code). It may become possible with Woof in the future.

[Billwho?]

Auto config my not be a good idea unless it it set for 600x800. I never use the default choice when booting up a new Puppy, I always use one or two steps down so I can actually see the screen.

[ecomoney]

Im not saying any of this will be easy! Making a Linux aimed at new users is always going to be a challenge.

Ive been using Puppy Linux since version 1.06 (November, 2005) and Ive setup hundreds of computers using it, of all kinds of ages and specifications. I would estimate that only 0.5% of these computers have been unable to get 1024x768 resolution working. Most of these were very early on, because of very old (50htz?) monitors that were unable to support it. I would imaging very few of these early monitors still survive.

Yes, there will be exceptions, the 0.5% of computers that wont work with the default settings...and would need to be setup manually.

Compare this option to the 99.5% of new linux users are put off continuing to use (and eventually come to appreciate) Linux by the text based setup screens, which will to them be the first time they interact with a Linux system. It does nothing to dispel the myths from Microsoft that Linux is over complex and difficult to use.

Using this system 99.5% will still be much better catered for, and the 0.5% of people that this system affects will only be marginally worse off (having to press escape during setup).

I started a thread (as yet unresponded to) a while back about a possible design for a "newb-friendly" setup wizard here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 550#283550

Could we keep discussions about that organised there please.


NAS Box
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Im starting to have second thoughts about the smoothwall....at least to begin with.

Would the FreeNas simply attach to the existing network, gain an i.p. via autoDHCP, and then be able to boot the other boxes on the network by changing their bios settings? Perhaps it might make a good stopgap introduction to introducing a puppy based setup at the cybercafe. They will be dual-running windows/puppy for a while when they first start.

[Dougal]

I totally agree , the xorgwizard isnt anywhere near friendly enough for non-linux-techies, and it needs some serious revision if puppy is going to fulfil its origional mission statement. The question is...why hasnt this usability flaw been corrected by now?

That's actually not what I meant: when you go to a normal" cybercafe, they just log you in a display manager -- you don't need to actually set up the box!
It's reasonable to make it boot every time, if there are long stretches of time the machine isn't used, but it must be preconfigured, so the user can just go ahead and use it.

I have booted hundreds of different computers with puppy linux, and each time I set up the xorgwizard I have thought "Why do I have to continually just press [ENTER] on all of the xorgwizard screens. The xorgwizard, with nearly no exception, just picks up the defaults and works......so why present the end user with all this complicated extra information about "X", graphics drivers and mouse types etc.
Puppy linux has NEVER failed to autodetect the correct mouse, and why this has been put back into 4 series Dingo is a mystery.

I've actually made a version of the xorgwizard that can be run in "auto" mode, but I don't think that kind of thing should be the default: the attitude with Puppy has always been to not do things the user didn't ask for. It's just like not connecting to the net if the user hasn't configured the interface -- it is trivial to do, but we intentionally don't do it. (my idea is to have a boot option for selecting auto, with the possibility of specifying a x-server and/or a resolution to use.)

[Aitch]

Hi Rob,

Would the FreeNas simply attach to the existing network, gain an i.p. via autoDHCP, and then be able to boot the other boxes on the network by changing their bios settings?

Freenas will attach to the network, OK but the other depends on PXE & setup,

however, I've done a bit more research, & see these links
H. Peter Anvins' original Syslinux/PXELinux came from wayback machine, as it has better info

http://web.archive.org/web/200708090517 ... om/faq.php

The others have PXE info

http://syslinux.zytor.com/wiki/index.php/PXELINUX

http://www.kano.org.uk/projects/pxe/

RTFM Education has info about Ultimate Deployment Appliance, as an alternate to PXE that can run from a VMWare image

http://www.rtfm-ed.co.uk/?page_id=366

from this forum

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38442

Answering a bit of my own question:

Since the HP t5xxx thin clients can PXE boot, my first try will be using the Ultimate Deployment Appliance www.rtfm-ed.co.uk/?page_id=366 to image mine when it comes. UDA is a VMWare virtual machine that allows you to boot clients on a network from ISOs stored on a server.

From UDA's description:
"the operator powers on the physical or virtual machine and press [F12] to trigger a PXE boot. The operator then selects a build from a menu, and then an unattended/scripted installation is triggered by either using either Windows unattended files or Linux kickstart files depending on your OS. UDA also supports using CD-ROM boot utilities such as BartPE delivered via PXE. In short UDA allows you kiss goodbye your manual CD-ROM based installations - and say hello to remote builds via ILO/RAC/IP-KVM cards or from your virtual machine console window."

and physdiskwrite from the Monowall site for you/anyone looking to write CFdisks from a Windoze box [also on Freenas site] for syslinux/other useage

http://m0n0.ch/wall/physdiskwrite.php

Hope that helps

Aitch

[rcrsn51]

If I may, here a few thoughts:

From my experience, a frugal install will only work if the pup_save file is writable. You can demonstrate this by making a Live CD that has the pup_save on it.

In a cybercafe setup, the simplest arrangement will have a working pup_save in place for each machine, configured for its hardware.

The problem then is how to keep the pup_save from being altered, or how to start with a pristine pup_save at bootup.

Here is a possible strategy:

1. Install FreeDOS on the hard drive.
2. From the Live CD, do a frugal install and create a pup_save that has the necessary hardware settings.
3. Make a backup copy of the pup_save on the hard drive.
4. Create an autoexec.bat file with two jobs at bootup:
a. Restore the pup_save file from the backup copy
b. Boot Puppy using linld or grub.exe

As long as all the mounting tools are removed from the desktop, the system should be fairly bullet-proof.

[ecomoney]

Hi all, thanks for your advice. This is the first time Ive been able to log onto the forum all day, as it has just not been responding Thank you for the links Aitch I will read up on them now.

On the whole, its been another unproductive day. Ive installed FreeNAS on my laptop, and managed to set it up with various samba shares (boy....FreeBSD is another world!) I connected it by ethernet to the hub upstairs and upload the initrd.gz and vmlinuz files out via tftp, and tried to boot another laptop that I have in for repair (no hard drive) via PXE off it, no luck, just a message about PXE timing out. It obviously cant "see" the tftp server on the FreeNAS. I even lugged my desktop machine upstairs as a double check, and set it up on the floor connected with ethernet and the same thing happened.

TFTP has only just been implemented on FreeNAS in the very latest release....I really think it is untested and broken...I could be wrong, but thats how it seems. In any case, FreeNAS is an excellent project and Im glad that I learned about it, just for the knowledge that you can use an old laptop with a broken screen to bittorrent (via transmission) all night on minimal power, then stream the content off their onto an xbox360 or PS2 using "Universal Plug and Play" or UPnP (this should be a proprietary windoze thing).

Im going to go back to the smoothwall setup described above (without the hub), Im not sure how it will work but its worth a shot. The tftp server on there seems to be more mature. In the documentation for puppy linux, its been reported that some success has been had using ubuntu to boot the puppy machines from. I would rather steer well clear of Ubuntu if possible because Ive found it to be extremely unreliable. The other way I could test things is using Virtual Machines.....but that isnt a really true test....as I will eventually be using real ones

@rcrsn51

Thanks for the idea. I would rather not have to use a pup_save.2fs file for the moment, or any form of storage on the client machines...for three reasons.

1. Puppy linux *should* be able to perform the majority of tasks by the majority of "linux newbs" simply from liveboot...if it doesnt then weve discovered where we can improve puppy linux!

2. This is also for security considerations, as it would be possible for people to leave passwords and such stored in them, and also any other kind of "material" that passers by would leave behind.

3. Hard disks have moving parts and are prone to failure before any other component of the p.c. SSD disks are much more reliable, but expensive The cost of replacing all of the hard drives in all of the machines would be prohibitive. Better the whole cybercafe be run off a single SSD RAID array in a server for maximum reliability.

The cafe does have a regular clientèle from the local area however, there is nothing to say that they couldnt use their own pendrive to store a personalised pup_save.2fs file. They would just have to insert it before booting the computers for it to be picked up...I think Im correct in thinking this?

@ Dougal

I would be very interested in your autoconfiguring xorgwizard, does it just autoconfigure the mouse or attempt the whole x-settings? Even if it just did the mouse it would be an improvement. Have you published it? do you have a link?

Remember, this is not just a "normal" cybercafe, it has people from all over the world visiting it. An ability to (easily) choose the keyboard layout for the users native country would be a great feature to have here, and while I agree that "normally" the screen resolution would be preconfigured, an ability to adjust that before the session starts to the users preference would not exactly be a drawback as such.....if that facility was to be relatively user friendly.

The staff at the cybercafe indicated that they have a great deal of support for the aims and objectives of the Puppy Linux project (Green technology, recycling, "free" software etc), and I have explained to them they may have some initial problems while we get the exact setup sorted out. Whatever Puppy Linux's downfalls at present they will be nothing compared to the trouble of having to keep so may Windows machines quasi-operational. Its a "Win Win", unless your surname happens to be Gates or Balmer that is

I do expect that there is a possibility that some machines may not "autoconfigure" their settings. Puppy has a great facility of "remembering" the xorg settings for different machines. This is so that if a user is using LiveCD or USB installation on a few different machines regularly, puppy "remembers" the settings for each graphic card/monitor combination, and the next time it boots it recalls them and displays how it was last (manually) set up.

If there is a "problem machine" then it would be a relatively simple task of configuring the problem machine manually, and then taking those settings (the xorg.conf) and manually adding them to the pup_420.sfs held on the netboot server (this can be done online without a visit by me remember). That way, when puppy boots on that machine, the settings for it are already automatically programmed in. Im assuming this is possible

Thanks again for all of your suggestions and support.

[raffy]

@Robert (ecomoney): I wanted to reply to your freeNAS query last night, but I've not had the time to test TFTP in freeNAS. [I will be tied up whole day today, so can't test it still. But yesterday I found out that freeNAS has PHP and lighttpd, and it serves dokuwiki well. The webserver is useful if you want to serve a how-to for users (which you can continually update remotely, as it is part of freeNAS)].

For the readers, PXE booting only requires that you set the PC's BIOS to boot from network, restart, and that's it.

The more complex setup involves the TFTP server, for which you can use:
- Windows - any version from Win98 up, just unzip the file linked to, add vmlinuz and humongous initrd.gz, edit the pxelinux.cfg and you're there!
For more discussion, see http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=23615
- Puppy - use magiczauru's tftp build;
- any other distro/system with TFTP (freeNAS is one example).

IMHO, the easiest way to test TFTP/PXE boot is to use the Windows pxe package. It is the easiest way to get started. Even if you dislike Win$, take comfort that a very honorable man wrote that free PXE package, Philip Jounin.

After TFTP success in Windows, then you can test other servers and begin to trouble-shoot.

It's one step at a time, folks. First see TFTP at work, and then explore alternative ways of serving it.

[MagicZaurus]

Hi ecomoney!

Some tips on how PXE booting works. Maybe that helps you how the whole story works.

1) The client PC network card is set to PXE boot and at system start the network card firmware makes a special DHCP request for an IP and the IP/location of the TFTP server.

2) The DHCP server replies to the client with an IP and the IP/location of the TFTP server. So it is important that the DHCP server is configured to provide the required informations for PXE booting. In Smoothwall there seems to be a configuration page for the DHCP server where you need to activate 'Netbooting' and set the IP and Path of the TFTP server.

3) The client PC network card uses the information from the DHCP server and contacts the TFTP server to get the file 'pxelinux' which is like a bootloader. This bootloader checks the pxelinux.cfg file on the TFTP server to get informations about which kernel, ramdisk and boot options to load. Then it loads the vmlinuz and initrdgz from the TFTP server and hands over to the vmlinuz.

So your first step is to configure your DHCP server correct. After that the TFTP server and pxelinux.cfg.

Maybe you can try it first like raffy mentioned with a Windows box or my dnsmasq-package on a Puppy box. I'm using dnsmasq, because that includes DHCP and TFTP server and so it's easy to configure.

Good luck!

[raffy]

Thanks, MZ, I've also observed that dhcp and tftp indeed go together.

In the case of freeNAS, its forum says that inetd is needed, see:
http://apps.sourceforge.net/phpbb/freenas/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=417&st=0

inetd example for BSD is given here: here:http://www.netbsd.org/docs/network/netboot/tftpd.html

Alas, I did not see inetd.conf in /etc. Anyone familiar with inetd?