Puppy 4.2 RC3 Deep Thought - Bugs & Fixes

[WhoDo]

Which prompts me to ask where was your testing when we needed it back in Beta phases?

I was busy testing Woof and working on my 'secret Puppy project'
(coming soon)

Well don't tell me about the project because then you'd have to kill me, and I've only just started to come back to life after a week in lurgy hell!

[WhoDo]

I have seamonkey down to 11MB now, I'll keep that version and try one last time

This is good news ....

...the poll I made has never went lower than 72% against widgets being installed by default, thats after 49 votes so far, Its still up to you WhoDo of course

... and this cruelty to animals - please stop beating that poor, dead horse!

I will say it just one ... more ... time; Pwidgets is IN and ON by default in Puppy-4.2 ... period (full stop if you prefer the vernacular). Pwidgets now has a Stop/Start option under File in the Pwidgets manager. Those who don't want it running can simply turn it off. Puppy is all about choice.

BTW, 49 votes doesn't even go close to representing a reasonable statistical sample of the Puppy population. There is usually between 200 and 300 registered users that come online in any one 24hr period, but there are a total of 14,821 registered users altogether. Some of them don't post for years! There is also an average of 8,150+ guests visiting here in any 24hr period. In that context 49 votes means squat, Jeff, even if this was a democracy ... which it isn't! Your (Benevolent) Dictator has spoken.

Great work on getting Seamonkey + Mail/News down to 11Mb! I'm sure that will be a popular download from the main repository.

[WhoDo]

xorg seems stuck on 1400x 1050 on Thinkpad... tried 600 and 800 and 1440 always get 1400 x 1050... might be Laptop???

You can always try editing /etc/X11/xorg.conf manually (after making a backup of course) to force a particular resolution IF you are certain your graphics will support that resolution/refresh rate combo.

Hope that helps

[WhoDo]

Xclipboard ,Xfontsel, xcalc <--- you can delete the .desktop files and they won't show up in the menu, and if you want to go a bit further, just delete the bin files

True, but we gain nothing in terms of space and lose those extra applications which may suit some users better than the more complex versions. I understand now why Barry has never seen the point of deleting them and neither do I.

[WhoDo]

Seamonkey by default comes with 2 themes, classic and modern, this is what the 'modern' theme looks like, do you want the newer theme like what is in puppy now or do you want the modern theme as default with monkey menus as pictured below, it would have to be either default or deleted becausee it takes up over 400kb compressed.

Delete the Modern theme to make room for Seafox theme which should be the default for our builds IMHO.

[WhoDo]

Did you update the wallpaper setter to 0.5-3? I noticed stop the pwidgets option crashed the background until I installed wallpaper-setter-0.5-3

Yes. I even removed the 0.5.1 version from my Unleashed tree to avoid confusion. OTOH, I have noticed since installing Pwidgets v2.0 that my Xonclock never properly syncs with the background until I move it, but the widgets themselves sync perfectly.

I think there is a problem in syncing between /usr/share/backgrounds/mypaper.jpg, /root/.config/wallpaper/bg_img and /root/Choices/ROX-background.jpg ... the last one has to be updated manually now, where it was automatically updated by the wallpaper setter before. When these are out of sync all sorts of peculiarities develop with the widgets backgrounds, especially Clock-analog.

I have also noticed that anything that relies on fixmenus seems to take forever now, even on a very fast 2.0Ghz processor. I suspect some sort of looping behaviour in the script. I know that ttuuxxx has complained about this before, but this is the first time I've noticed it on my fast machine. It's also being called from PETget but not updating the menus like it says it is. You have to manually use Refresh menus to get the changes to appear even in Icewm! Can we get Zigbert to have a look at that script from the RC3 build please?

[ttuuxxx]

WhoDo answer this then, If users which have 256MB of and Pwidgets alone takes 14% of their memory, is it fair that every time time they run a live cd that there PC will run like crap off boot, Also I was thinking maybe while your at it place the remaster script in the startup folder, so all the users can fix this this issue straight away, before say they turn the Internet on on and play a cd and notice then they have no memory left. You might be a dictator, but I never known a single dictator that wasn't wrong at least once in there Raine. This time my friend you are wrong full stop. It needs to be off by default, that would be a compromise. Look at it this was, all 256mb or less users want it gone, I want it gone and I have 4 gigs of ddr2 memory plus 18gigs pupsave:) you and a small select few want it, why not meet us midway and have as a pet in root with all the included mess of system links included in that unstable resource hog you call Pwidgets, and let the users decided if they want to install it or delete it
Really WhoDo i like you as a person, and I'm not trying to start a fight either, I know the developers are pushy and probably forcing this on you or 'they walk' but its puppys reputaion at stake hear, being able to run on older pc's. I just can't see that happening if you give 14% to the desktop where most people don't see once you open a window. Its just pure crap and a waste of 500kb. Thats how I feel, and I stick up for the little guys.
p.s There's a better way of doing PWidgets and I posted it on the Pwidgets site, but the guys ignored it, I don't blame them since I don't like resource steeling applicatioins and they know it. Conkey is at fault and I've given them another application that they could hack and reduce the size to about 1/5 of the current state and it doesn't breakup the desktop icons.
ttuuxxx

[zigbert]

Can we get Zigbert to have a look at that script from the RC3 build please?

I'm still lurking - Yes, I can take a look.

One question. You have removed the flat DeepThought menu icons. Is it done because you like the new icons better, or because you didn't fix the icon_switcher? I could look into it.

'open with' in ROX refers to gview which is not installed anymore.


Sigmund

[zigbert]

Warren
Xonclock issue: What happens if you increase the sleep value in the preferences?


Sigmund

[WhoDo]

WhoDo answer this then, If users which have 256MB of and Pwidgets alone takes 14% of their memory, is it fair that every time time they run a live cd that there PC will run like crap off boot

That's what RemaX (Remaster Express) is for.

Also I was thinking maybe while your at it place the remaster script in the startup folder, so all the users can fix this this issue straight away, before say they turn the Internet on on and play a cd and notice then they have no memory left.

Oh right, so they not only get Pwidgets but RemaX at every boot until they remaster?

You might be a dictator, but I never known a single dictator that wasn't wrong at least once in there Raine. This time my friend you are wrong full stop. It needs to be off by default, that would be a compromise.

In a dictatorship there is only one opinion that counts; in this case that opinion is mine! Never yet met a dictator that believed in compromise. A dictated compromise? That would be an oxymoron, wouldn't it? As for being "wrong", I'll let history be the judge. Please, turn your enthusiasm to discovering why Barry's fixmenus script seems to take forever when run from PETget. Leave the poor dead horse alone or I'll call the RSPCA and give them your name!

Really WhoDo i like you as a person, and I'm not trying to start a fight either, I know the developers are pushy and probably forcing this on you or 'they walk' but its puppys reputaion at stake hear, being able to run on older pc's.

Nobody's forcing me to do anything ... not even you, ttuuxxx! I understand your conviction but disagree with your reasoning. I'll let history be the judge. Puppy 4.2 will be the best standard edition Puppy ever IMHO. The die is cast and I'm convinced that it won't turn up snake eyes!

I just can't see that happening if you give 14% to the desktop where most people don't see once you open a window. Its just pure crap and a waste of 500kb.

Actually wasn't it you that protested so vehemently about people "dissing" your hard work? Is this payback, or do you really believe in "Do as I say, not as I do"? If the Pwidgets guys were to hold you to your own standards, as previously expressed, then you would be due for a right royal serve from them right now and you wouldn't have a leg to stand on for any complaint!

p.s There's a better way of doing PWidgets and I posted it on the Pwidgets site, but the guys ignored it, I don't blame them since I don't like resource steeling applicatioins and they know it. Conkey is at fault and I've given them another application that they could hack and reduce the size to about 1/5 of the current state and it doesn't breakup the desktop icons.

ttuuxxx, ttuuxxx, ttuuxxx! You were the one proclaiming "I don't go trying to take over other people's projects (sic)", yet here you are with your nose out of joint because the Pwidgets team hasn't followed your advice on their project?

If you need to air this sort of stuff, a PM is the way to go. I have already said that Bugs & Fixes threads are NOT the place for this sort of discussion. I will NOT be changing course on Puppy 4.2 only a week out from the final release, no matter what

[panzerpuppy]

You might be a dictator, but I never known a single dictator that wasn't wrong at least once in there Raine. This time my friend you are wrong full stop. It needs to be off by default, that would be a compromise.

Nothing to worry about.Just let him do whatever he likes. After the release,you can always make your own (much better) 'light' variant and use some aggressive 'marketing'
Your puplet might get more downloads than the official release

[WhoDo]

Can we get Zigbert to have a look at that script from the RC3 build please?

I'm still lurking - Yes, I can take a look.

Thank you.

One question. You have removed the flat DeepThought menu icons. Is it done because you like the new icons better, or because you didn't fix the icon_switcher? I could look into it.

I did that because I couldn't work out why the icon_switcher refused to copy those lovely flat icons back over the top in /usr/local/lib/X11/pixmaps after they were swapped out. It was driving me crazy!

There is something screwy in the icon_switcher script and I believe it has to do with the underlying format of the icon and Barry's intention to use a single SVG icon and resize it as required. If the icon is native PNG it works (witness the two themes in RC3), but if the files (any of them) are/were SVG, or renamed as PNG (for example), then they simply won't overwrite a standard PNG icon. That's why some of the flat icons would copy back but not others. At least that's what I think was happening, but I could be 180 degrees wrong on that. Either way I just couldn't afford to go chasing it through the code in that script any longer - no time for that.

If you could have a look at that, it would be great. Thanks.

'open with' in ROX refers to gview which is not installed anymore.

Not again! I must have fixed that one a thousand times already. Thanks, Sigmund. I'll take another look at it.

[WhoDo]

Warren
Xonclock issue: What happens if you increase the sleep value in the preferences?

Changed it from 3 to 5. When I log off I'll test it and let you know.

[ttuuxxx]

ttuuxxx your the man

Ok WhoDo here's the thing you have everything set up at your finger tips, the new remaster scrip will not remove the icon switcher without breaking the system right? how it would it work, you remove 133 system links and boom everything is shot, Well at least I think so, I haven't had the chance to upgrade to rc3 still working on seamonkey, Anyways why not be a bud and work with me on this, meaning, If I supply you with some scripts from series 4.12 and maybe a few tiny extras, after your finished with your final release for new PC's only, then maybe you could make one last Unofficial release to please the rest of us? without pwidgets, without the new theme switcher and 133 shortcuts, I can work on it if you want and give you a couple of pets and instructions, hows that? So then the Final is with Pwidgets and the unofficial final is without. ? It shouldn't take much of your time to remove say 4 or 5 pets and replace them with like 5 or 6 new/older ones and upload it?
ttuuxxx

[ttuuxxx]

those lovely flat icons

I won't even go there

[panzerpuppy]

The 'retro' version (for old machines) can be shipped without the bling.
That's a good compromise.

[panzerpuppy]

I won't even go there

Flat icons....ugh!

[WhoDo]

You might be a dictator, but I never known a single dictator that wasn't wrong at least once in there Raine. This time my friend you are wrong full stop. It needs to be off by default, that would be a compromise.

No problem.Just let him do what he likes. After the release,you can always make your own,much better 'light' variant and use some clever / aggressive advertising
Your puplet might get more downloads than the official release

Suggesting that ttuuxxx "let him do what he likes" presumes he has a choice in the matter. He doesn't and neither do you. We started this journey with the first Alpha upload on January 17th. It is now March 15th - the Ides of March; when Caesar was stabbed in the back on the steps of the Forum by several of his so-called friends. Ironic that!

There have been 4 Alpha releases, 2 Beta releases and now 3 Release Candidates in the intervening 8 weeks or so, all carried out in my spare time (read my free, personal and family time) after work or while I've been off work sick. It has been a labour of love, but not without its pain. Why, under those circumstances, would any reasonable person think that NOW would be the just right time to start demanding major changes of policy or direction?

If this sort of argumentative approach doesn't stop, here and now, then I'll simply make what changes I already have, upload the Final Release and walk away. That's not a threat; just a statement of fact. I have a great deal of patience, but like the government dealing with the global economic crisis I've been forced to spend those resources very quickly for little apparent return. Enough is enough!

[01micko]

Hi all.

Just a simple statement of fact here. Bear in mind this test was conducted with the machine at idle and no windows or extras open. I run in RAM with a 1,5GiB swap partition, save is back to CD.

Htop process viewer says my machine has 471MiB RAM, that's fine, I have onboard graphics.

When Pwwidgets is running, 5 widgets, Xonclock and 4 conky based widgets, Htop reports I am using 102MiB of RAM.

When Pwidgets is turned off it reports I am using 100MiB RAM.

When Pwidgets is off and 1 Seamonkey window is open I am using 120MiB of RAM.

When Pwidgets is on and Seamonkey has 1 window open I am using 126MiB of Ram.

By that rationale, at worst, with Pwidgets running 5 widgets, it is using 4MiB of RAM. That's less than 1%. And 1 more widget than default. Sure, play Tv and Slideshow and these numbers will go up significantly. Try this experiment if you like.

Remember, everything was loaded and machine was at idle.

NB: Htop reported that NO swap was used in each test.

Cheers All.

[WhoDo]

ttuuxxx your the man

I don't recall EVER using that precise expression. I may have thought it more than once, but if I ever wrote it down I would at least have used the correct form of the expression viz. "you're the man".

Anyways why not be a bud and work with me on this, meaning, If I supply you with some scripts from series 4.12 and maybe a few tiny extras, after your finished with your final release for new PC's only, then maybe you could make one last Unofficial release to please the rest of us? without pwidgets, without the new theme switcher and 133 shortcuts, I can work on it if you want and give you a couple of pets and instructions, hows that? So then the Final is with Pwidgets and the unofficial final is without. ? It shouldn't take much of your time to remove say 4 or 5 pets and replace them with like 5 or 6 new/older ones and upload it?

That's what RemaX (Remaster Express) is for. OTOH, unless I walk away from everything else, all I have time for right now is a Retro version of the current release, followed ... MAYBE ... by a CE version with all the bells and whistles. That "maybe" is getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger by the day.

Why would I go back to producing a Lite Standard version on request when all of the pets are now in the ibiblio.org repository and anyone ... absolutely ANYONE ... can download the Unleashed core and the pet packages and brew their own? Or when it's even simpler for absolutely anyone to just RemaX the standard release the way they'd like and then release that?

Why does a Lite Standard version have to come from ME? Is it a credibility thing? But isn't it my credibility over this decision that's being questioned here? I'm sorry; maybe I'm stupid but I just don't understand the reason for the request.