Pre Release Testing Methodologies for Puppy Linux

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Dougal
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#31 Post by Dougal »

ecomoney wrote:The repos still dont contain openoffice, amsn or a recent firefox, most needed by linux newbs, although the packages exist Sad

Why all this possessiveness?
I don't know, but I can tell you that had I read ttuuxx's reply to Zigbert's Pshutdown post before making my last reply, I would have been much less civil towards him. Zigbert is one of the few worthy people on this forum -- something I can't say about ttuuxx.
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#32 Post by Dougal »

MU wrote:4.2 is great work, it allowed the comunity to add many addons or enhancements to the 4.12 base.
It has a conceptual and artistic focus (make Puppy more appealing, look nicer, offer beautifull addons like pwidgets).

A next step - Puppy 4.3 - might be focussing the "technical core" again.

- New Kernel ( UTF-8 )
- updated Glib/Gtk
- Xorg 7.4
- test/enhance the localization, e.g. add languagepacks (german.sfs, french.sfs ...)

- Avoid adding new programs / look / gimmicks

If you concentrate on these 4 points, it should take not too much time to release it.
A final step also might update some of the applications to the newest versions.
I completely disagree.
You need to upgrade glib/gtk, xorg and the kernel (and possible gcc first), then you need to recompile everything that depends on them, i.e. the entire filesystem.
That means that all the compiling ttuuxx was so proud of will have to be repeated after you got a new filesystem.
So all this is just a waste of time, as it doesn't solve the basic problems of getting Puppy to work. Making it look good and slick might be nice, but it is of no use when people can't use it at all (and there are plenty of examples on the forum of posts by people who had some problem and got no attention at all, since people were probably too busy playing with adding eyecandy (and add new bugs) to bother with trying to fix the existing problems. (and I won't even raise the question of whether some of those eyecandy items are "in the Puppy spirit" -- maybe some things where a certain way for a reason?)

(And should I ask why, if you think 4.2 is so good, were you (as one of the only "developers" around here) busy contributing instead to wow's "unnamed puplet"? Ahem)

A couple of technical points:
- utf8 has nothing to do with a new kernel: it's just a matter of inserting fs/nls/nls_utf8.ko during init, like the other two nls modules, then mounting partitions as utf8.
- sfs files should not be relied on for every little thing people want to add -- that's what dotpets are for. People who think it's smart to load 20 sfs files should try and actually use such a system on a memory constrained machine for a length of time and see how well it works. Then maybe read a bit about squashfs. (Also, using a dotpet you don't have to reboot. Just 'cause people are used to such silly behaviour from Windows doesn't make it right.)
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#33 Post by Dougal »

WhoDo wrote:My understanding was, from the various threads that were discussing the early development of 4.2, that you would be leading the core development part of the community effort for the 4.2 release. I coordinated the inclusion of whatever I was given, including making decisions about what was in or out. With very little input in the way of material changes to the core, except for some important changes to the init script, there was nothing for me to "coordinate" from that part of the program.
Barry and some of the old-timers wanted me to do it and I refused, partly due to technical limitations, but mostly because (as I stated on Barry's blog) there's nothing to coordinate.
Who are the "maintainers" you work with? The only maintainers around here I can think about are me (unofficially maintaining rarsa'a network-wizard, just because I'm the one who bothered to try and fix and improve it) and people like Sigmund and Jason Pline (plinej) (and gyro etc.), who went ahead and wrote P* apps and by default are their maintainers (and disciple, with things like the trash appdir). And there's tempestuous, obviously, the Puppy janitor, cleaning up after others and trying to get things working for users.
So, as far as I'm concerned, 4.20 is basically a WhoDo/ttuuxx puplet.
I'm pleased to note that you have recognised the focus of 4.2 was NOT to produce "a whole new distro", and your clear recognition that what we produced was indeed only a "polish", packages and usability update from 4.1.2, as I foreshadowed way back when the project started. That's why I wasn't too worried when guys like you and tempestuous didn't take a whole lot of interest in the Deep Thought project.
If there is some serious effort to update the core, including a new T2 build from Barry, then 4.3 will be the eventual product and that will require a significantly longer testing cycle, more involvement from core devs like you and tempestuous, and less emphasis on packages and polish.
This shows what the basic problem: when Barry announced his retirement*, you folks went ahead and planned a new release, instead of starting from the ground and getting together a group of people who can actually build a distro (as I put it back then: first be able to replicate the existing Puppy, before you go and try to enhance it).
So where are you now? You're planning on Barry to get the new build done for you -- but he's supposed to be gone!
I'm not attacking you or anything, I'm just pointing out the reality, as it seems like Lobster has spiked some people's drinks around here...
Why do you think muggins needs the "keys to the official repos"? If he needs something included there, that can be coordinated through me for the next release. I don't see the problem.
Anyone who's been on this forum for a while should have noticed by now that muggins has been posting dotpups/dotpets to the forum on a daily basis for the past few years (even now that he's in Tazzie -- is that a vacation, or was W'gong too warm for him??) -- and that's not the way to go. Someone like him should be given the power to create "official" packages (following some guidelines about how they should be made) and upload them to the repository, then update packages.txt before every release (and no, he shouldn't have to get permission from you for every package, as he is in a better position that you to decide if the package is ok or not! He's the one who saw the sources and compiled them). As it is now, he is a "wated resource".

And please will everybody stop talking about Git? Git is an SCM. The "S" stands for source. What should be in git is directories with the various Puppy scripts and sources for Puppy-specific apps. Not compiled binaries or tarballs -- there is no point in that. And it certainly won't change the way things work around here -- people moving their arses will.

*- I don't really consider Barry as being retired from Puppy: the only way to keep him away from Puppy is to keep him away from computers... so all he did was escape the responsibility of "having" to care about problems people are having -- since Puppy is his toy, not something he created to add any more stress to his life (hey, I'd say moving to Middle Of Nowhere, WA is probably a matter of trying to escape responsibilities...).
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#34 Post by ttuuxxx »

Dougal wrote:
ecomoney wrote:
Why all this possessiveness?
I don't know, but I can tell you that had I read ttuuxx's reply to Zigbert's Pshutdown post before making my last reply, I would have been much less civil towards him. Zigbert is one of the few worthy people on this forum -- something I can't say about ttuuxx.
Hey why do you brig that crap into here, Zigbert started it 4.2 beta and continued it again 2 days ago, Dougal really if your going to get involved, Go jump off a bridge first,
Then get out of the water, shake your head and get the water out of your ears, Get toweled off. Feel refreshed?? good:) Now listen closely.

I've really had enough crap with Zigbert and his crap apllications and shit sirring attitude. This will end up bad if you continue raising it. Do you not think I can't read, or do you not think I won't respond, what are you thinking by making that statement in this thread? It was bad enough in the other threads, let it go!!!!.
ttuuxxx
Last edited by ttuuxxx on Thu 09 Apr 2009, 01:59, edited 1 time in total.
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
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#35 Post by ttuuxxx »

Dougal wrote:
MU wrote: That means that all the compiling ttuuxx was so proud of will have to be repeated after you got a new filesystem.
So all this is just a waste of time,
I would do it all again in a heartbeat if WhoDo asked, really you have a condescending tone about you. I don't think Barry ever changed glib,gtk in a series model. That would be stupid and confusing for anybody downloading official packages from 4 series at the repo.
Thats what series 5.0 will be, 4.2 was to show we could continue on and we did, and to call that a puplet your really pushing things. Go take a break, and lose your rude, ungrateful attitude.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
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#36 Post by playdayz »

I would like to second this by MU and WhoDo.

MU wrote:
4.2 is great work, it allowed the community to add many addons or enhancements to the 4.12 base.
It has a conceptual and artistic focus (make Puppy more appealing, look nicer, offer beautiful addons like pwidgets).
WhoDo wrote
Exactly! And don't forget it was also intended to be easier to use for refugees as well. There were quite a number of relatively small usability "tweaks" to that end.
MU wrote:
A next step - Puppy 4.3 - might be focusing the "technical core" again.
First, In order to use Puppy on my big machine in a production environment it must have an smp kernel and advanced video capabilities. Wow and MU have got something going on in my opinion, which is why I am using Unanmed and NewYearsPup on that machine and I am very close to having a full production environment on it. I teach online college courses so I must have audio and video production, web production, advanced image editing, and a full office environment at the least. I do not think all of those things have to be built in to a Puppy rather imho they should be one-click install; preferably present in the Puppy Package Manager--the best linux programs for those jobs, carefully tailored to work seamlessly with Puppy the latest stable releases with all features working well. There's some work for some people. So I am advocating a small puppy for my thinkpad and a "Big Dog" with all the soul and style of Puppy for my work.

The presence of just 10 to 20 more of the latest stable versions of the best Linux programs in the Package Manager along with the two official versions of Puppy, big and little, seem to me a sound vision for the future. And if we are really clever then both versions of Puppy can use the same programs! OpenOffice of course, K-Office, Gimp, Scribus, Audacity, Wine, Kompozer, Inkscape... I don't think it would be too hard to make a list and start people working on them (some are already available in the forums of course: Audacity (disciple) etc.


Second...Here's a news flash...WhoDo did not solve all the problems of the linux world in his 4 months supervising the production of Puppy 4.2. But as I said I am a teacher of online courses and I have never seen anyone put such energy into replying honestly and in depth with great patience to so many disparate and often provocative messages. it is a great thing to have seen. It was his to set the vision and his to make the choices and he did. Good. I am glad I got to see it all and I think it is something to be proud of. Now, please, let's go forward.

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#37 Post by Pizzasgood »

For the record, my intention with Git is to simplify the constructive process of Puppy. It is not a magic bullet. It is not something the average user will know or care about. (The average tester may want to know and care about it, but for only testing, it is optional). The intention is to shift the burden of implementing things off of WhoDo's back and onto the backs of the people who want the things implemented, and to make it easier for people to see into his tree to check that things are as they should be.

It will not in itself make Puppy any better or worse. It will simply alter the way in which a new Puppy is put together, hopefully easing testing a little bit and making implementation a little less error-prone.

So I'm clear: Users and ISO-testers will not be expected to know anything about Git. It's a "dev thing".
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#38 Post by ecomoney »

Not that Im disagreeing Dougal/anyone...but the point of the thread is to provide a summary of practical suggestions on what can be improved about puppy development in the future.

Can I summerize you as saying Dougal, that regular contributors need to be welcome to contribute to new releases, and in a more easygoing (fun?) environment?

In that case Ttuxxx for everyones sake you need to "rein it in" a little (christ you can even get me riled). Im sure your often valid points will come across better a lot more if you do.

@ Whodo
Exactly! And don't forget it was also intended to be easier to use for refugees as well.
A extremely noble cause....Very very nearly there, with the exception of abiword problem.

I agree, firefox 3 is just not stable enough yet. People do want to see the software they want to use in the official repos though (rather than hunting for it on the web). Perhaps .pet installers that will download separately the huge bulk of openoffice/firefox...I believe there is a script (postinstall) to do it? Or would the new package system be able to handle it?
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#39 Post by ecomoney »

Just a note...Ttuxxxs 4.2 "deeper" thought is essentially a bugfixed 4.2, minus the "bling".

Perhaps an easy way of getting 4.2.1 out of the door and the key devs onward to better things would be to just use Deeper thought and "put the bling back in"....and do a thorough testing cycle (we could use it as a trial run of the new testing procedures...testing the testing?)
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#40 Post by droope »

Sorry for the oft, am i the only one who has fun reading ttuuxx explosions? :lol:

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#41 Post by ttuuxxx »

droope wrote:Sorry for the oft, am i the only one who has fun reading ttuuxx explosions? :lol:
Ya I've updated the first comment :)
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
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#42 Post by ecomoney »

I guess peoples idea of "fun" depends on the person. :roll:
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#43 Post by droope »

Everyone has a bad day :wink:

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#44 Post by ecomoney »

Everyone has a bad day
this was one of mine. ;-)
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New Puppy

#45 Post by NathanO »

With so many 4.2 threads going on at one time I have loat track of the proper place to post a request for what I would like to see in the next update of Puppy. Which thread should one use?????

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#46 Post by James C »

There is a thread in "Suggestions" titled" Wish list for next puppy release". It's a sticky....

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#47 Post by Lobster »

and getting together a group of people who can actually build a distro
Thanks Dougal.
We do what we can, with who we have.
A lot of effort went into 4.2 and a lot of end users are happily using it.
4.2.1 will continue that group of happy end users :)

For Kennel any idea, any group, any genius can create the 'Perfect Puppy'. Is there such a creature?

Look forward to it as it happens . . .. 8)
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#48 Post by WhoDo »

Dougal wrote:Barry and some of the old-timers wanted me to do it and I refused, partly due to technical limitations, but mostly because (as I stated on Barry's blog) there's nothing to coordinate.
AFAIK you were asked to "lead" the development effort, not just "coordinate" the efforts of others, but I could be wrong. Leading by example is always a good choice. Of course there is going to be "nothing to coordinate" if you don't communicate with the other core developers and decide what you'd all like to see in the next version and who would like to tackle which bits. Why did everyone just sit by and "leave it to Barry" to rebuild the base? Barry made it abundantly clear that he was concentrating on Woof. Who did you expect would do the core re-development in Barry's absence? It sure as heck was never going to be me! C'mon, surely you had some clue didn't you? :? Sounds like a rationalisation to me.
Dougal wrote:Who are the "maintainers" you work with? The only maintainers around here I can think about are me (unofficially maintaining rarsa'a network-wizard, just because I'm the one who bothered to try and fix and improve it) and people like Sigmund and Jason Pline (plinej) (and gyro etc.), who went ahead and wrote P* apps and by default are their maintainers (and disciple, with things like the trash appdir). And there's tempestuous, obviously, the Puppy janitor, cleaning up after others and trying to get things working for users.
Well that's a pretty good list to start, but what about Zigbert's team including trio, tasmod and 01micko, Hairywill (before he had to refocus his time), wjaguar, pa_mcclamrock, Pizzasgood, etc. There's a pretty complete list of those involved in the 4.2 release notes in the wiki.
Dougal wrote:So, as far as I'm concerned, 4.20 is basically a WhoDo/ttuuxx puplet.
Now that's just downright unkind to all of those who contributed to the effort, especially some of the very names you listed above as prolific in the Puppy development program. :x
Dougal wrote:This shows what the basic problem: when Barry announced his retirement*, you folks went ahead and planned a new release, instead of starting from the ground and getting together a group of people who can actually build a distro (as I put it back then: first be able to replicate the existing Puppy, before you go and try to enhance it).
Do you ever read anything without your name in it, Dougal? It was stated from the outset that 4.2 would be a simple refinement of 4.1.2 and nothing more. That was deliberate to allow the community to get its feet wet without taking on too much at the first attempt. :roll: It never ceases to amaze me how so many technical people seem totally incapable of Big Picture thinking.
Dougal wrote:So where are you now? You're planning on Barry to get the new build done for you -- but he's supposed to be gone!
Not "planning", Dougal. Just "hoping". If Barry is content to let someone else introduce his new baby to the Linux world, so be it. I was leaving the door open in case HE wanted to do the introductions. And Barry was, by his own words, never going to be "gone" from the Puppy team; just taking a back seat so he could work on Woof and other things that interested him more than packaging a new distro release every 6-8 months. Did you not read ANY of Barry's statements to that effect?
Dougal wrote:Anyone who's been on this forum for a while should have noticed by now that muggins has been posting dotpups/dotpets to the forum on a daily basis for the past few years (even now that he's in Tazzie -- is that a vacation, or was W'gong too warm for him??) -- and that's not the way to go. Someone like him should be given the power to create "official" packages (following some guidelines about how they should be made) and upload them to the repository, then update packages.txt before every release (and no, he shouldn't have to get permission from you for every package, as he is in a better position that you to decide if the package is ok or not! He's the one who saw the sources and compiled them). As it is now, he is a "wated resource".
Oh please! Without wishing to offend muggins, most of what he has posted has been GAMES for crying out loud! I am detecting a sense of resentment from you that someone like me, who hasn't developed a single line of code for Puppy, should be effectively in charge of the program. Am I right about that? It certainly seems so to me. Frankly, I took the project on because I cared enough to contribute what I know best - skills in managing volunteer workers, and coordinating projects. I've been a professional manager for nearly 40 years. That's my contribution.

At no stage did I suggest that I alone would decide if a package was ok or not; only that under the proposed system I alone would have the power to commit it to the Git tree when it was deemed that was appropriate. I would MUCH rather that responsibility fell to someone like you, Pizzasgood or even muggins than to me. How do you like them apples? Are you gonna volunteer now?
Dougal wrote:And please will everybody stop talking about Git? Git is an SCM. The "S" stands for source. What should be in git is directories with the various Puppy scripts and sources for Puppy-specific apps. Not compiled binaries or tarballs -- there is no point in that. And it certainly won't change the way things work around here -- people moving their arses will.
As far as I can see, apart from your own hobby interest in the network wizard, you should be including yourself as one of those in need of "moving their arses"! Being an armchair critic is too easy. Would you prefer to be the one to coordinate the next release? Go for it! I won't fight you for the "privilege"!
Dougal wrote:*- I don't really consider Barry as being retired from Puppy: the only way to keep him away from Puppy is to keep him away from computers... so all he did was escape the responsibility of "having" to care about problems people are having -- since Puppy is his toy, not something he created to add any more stress to his life (hey, I'd say moving to Middle Of Nowhere, WA is probably a matter of trying to escape responsibilities...).
And your point is? We all knew that going in. It was one of the reasons why I stepped in! I felt I could take some of that onerous load and let Barry concentrate on what he does best. So shoot me, Dougal. Maybe that was a mistake but you haven't offered any viable alternatives!
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#49 Post by Lobster »

Thanks Warren for all your efforts.

I am using 4.2 smp (a 4.2 puplet)
4.2.1 patches and updates are already being added - see forum threads.

From what I understand the plan is to maybe use Woof in 4.3?

Barrys t2 compile - will use the 4.2/4.2.1 depository - is that right?
The woof compiles are really the beginnings of a new kernel and the kennel 5.xx series.
The t2 compile might not be as stable as Debian or Slack builds - is that right?

4.2 is more stable than 4.12 - it is a genuine upgrade and update. It works. Deep Thought exists. It is our first release as a community.
We did it.

Simple. Better. Easier.
Deep Thought follows the Puppy principles
Woof Woof

PS.. Puppy Deep Thought is not perfect and carries no guarantees
No change there . . . :D
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#50 Post by zigbert »

Didn't know where to put this, so I point it here.

With the upgrade of Pprocess, it is now only Psip that uses gtklogfileview. A global search found 2 files containing gtklogfileview in code:
/usr/local/psip/dialog_debugger
/usr/local/psip/dialog_inputchat

It is easy to use Xdialog instead. It could be something like this:

Code: Select all

Xdialog --title "Psip" --screen-center --fixed-font --no-ok --cancel-label "Stop" --tailbox /tmp/logfile 500x500
Note! I have not looked at the Psip code


Sigmund

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