Who's in charge?

[sikpuppy]

Why not let ecomoney be chief coordinator? He may have less time then to bore me with his achievements.

[ecomoney]

Why not let ecomoney be chief coordinator? He may have less time then to bore me with his achievements.

Im sorry for boring you...feel free to bore me back whenever you have any yourself.

Actions speak louder than words whodo....have you fixed them bugs yet?

You might wanna check "recent puplets"

[ttuuxxx]

Why not let ecomoney be chief coordinator? He may have less time then to bore me with his achievements.

OMG NEVER LET ECOMONEY BE CHIEF COORINATOR !!!!!
I nominated Ecomoney as "The Chief Recycle Bin Deleter" he can go to everbodys house and clean out their recycle bins, lol that will keep him busy and away from the keyboard. that way we can get work and less stress around here. I sure as heck wouldn't take any instructions or views from him onboard ever again. Anybody second that?
ttuuxxx

[sikpuppy]

Im sorry for boring you...feel free to bore me back whenever you have any yourself.

Achievements? I have many. I don't tend to dwell on them as a self-promotion exercise.

I don't know what they taught you about people skills in your business studies, but I was of the impression that faint praise is worse than none at all. All it does is cause people to become resentful.

In any case, this is not a business enterprise, however much you seem to want to run it as one. Your own business might be run along those lines, but a purely voluntary, and I do mean PURELY voluntary, exercise such as Puppy needs a different approach.

When you come to the same conclusion, perhaps you might be less blind to the actual needs of other contributors here and make your own contribution more useful.

To be honest, I think I might have some skills to use in this place, but I am reticent to get too deep if the only reward for any effort I make is for you to bully me into delivering results. I honestly have had enough of that with previous dealings with over-bearing project managers in the past.

Perhaps bore isn't the correct term. Perhaps, "tl;dr" might be a better term

[ecomoney]

...and still no comment from the government man

Ttuxxx....thats pretty much the job Ive got already, when their bins are full of old p.c.'s

Your a programmer Ttuxxx, and ff you dont understand the problem, you will never find a solution. You need to know more than code.

But yes, its about time I returned to "real life", my projects are late.

[Sylvander]

I'm accustomed to seeing [at the PC Guide] moderators warning people who begin throwing around disrespectful comments [from this side or that], to cease at once or suffer the consequences.

It tends to force people away from words powered/driven by EMOTION [the monsters of the ID] rather than intellect.

And it is wiser...
When the other party goes that way...
To either keep cool and not respond in kind...
Or else not respond at all.
i.e
"If in doubt SAY NOWT".

I'm attempting to sooooth.
Or should I take my own advice and say nothing?

I remember when I was a young boy...
I tried to stop a dog fight...
And got bitten for my trouble.
Still got the teeth marks all around my knee.

[tronkel]

Ecomoney thinks he has found a "mission" for himself in promoting low-cost computing for the unfortunate masses.

Having helped out such organisations myself with computing using Puppy, I can understand the warm feeling you get when everything goes well with the installation(s).

However, let's not become self-satisfied about all this. What we have here is a distro forum that deals with a hobbyist OS. People give of their time and energy simply because they get get a kick out of their hobby - nothing more than that. The words "mission" and "hobby" mean two entirely different things.

Ecomoney wrote:

Actions speak louder than words whodo....have you fixed them bugs yet?

The above quote from Ecomoney is presumptuous. It has the unmistakable underlying tone of someone who sees it as his self-appointed task, to ensure that everything possible is being done to evangelise and to raise to a state of perfection, what he sees as his mission.

I find that very irritating and unnecessary as well.

Even your clients don't expect you to change the world on their behalf, so please don't expect other people here to help you with this task either.

[Aitch]

Yes Nathan, I can see that you have been tossed about by the waves of fortune (I had a similar experience myself), when the world outside puppy catches up and you have housing, income, food etc to think about first. It happened to me recently when I lost everything and had to start from scratch. It can change a person, if they allow, when they have been through that so I do empathise with you.

hmm, perhaps we should also have a 'tossed about by the waves of fortune, but got back up again' puppy members club, as well as a council

here's to rejection, yay

learn life the hard way.... wink:

only qualified members need apply

Aitch

[ecomoney]

Yes, Ive recently gained a diploma at the school of hard knocks too.

@ Tronkel

Actually, many of my clients HAVE asked me to come on here and see if I can get some simple changes made to base puppy. I actually prefer base 4.2 "Shut up ecomoney" edition (which I use) myself over that of the puplet Ecopup I created for myself.

After having tested both on my clients/users, they are very clear that they prefer ecopup, but wish it had desktop icons for drives and better hardware support!

Tronkel, thank you for sharing your background too (it gets easier the more you do it), I cant see why you find my evangelism or perfecting "annoying"..please explain.

[tronkel]

Ecomoney wrote:

I cant see why you find my evangelism or perfecting "annoying"..please explain.

Easily done.

Let's make an analogy with religion. Evangelists often take the form of self-appointed preachers of a particular religion. They do not seem to understand that others might not share a similar "Weltanschauung" or worldview as themselves. They seem completely oblivious as to how they come across to other people. Their sermons come over in a hectoring fashion. That is you Ecomoney in a nutshell. I find this very irritating - just as I do the religionists.

Give it a rest please.

[mcewanw]

Ecomoney wrote:

I cant see why you find my evangelism or perfecting "annoying"..please explain.

Easily done.

Let's make an analogy with religion. Evangelists often take the form of self-appointed preachers of a particular religion. They do not seem to understand that others might not share a similar "Weltanschauung" or worldview as themselves. They seem completely oblivious as to how they come across to other people. Their sermons come over in a hectoring fashion.

Enter evangelist Richard Stallman. Would there have been an open-source movement without him? Why wouldn't there be, even IBM used to release its software in an openly readable form to its purchasers. Much though I understand most of Stallman's concerns, I do find his dictates stifling; dictatorial attitudes and philosophies don't fit very well with models of openness and freedom IMO.

Open source is good; the trouble indeed arises when it becomes "a mission"; Puppy Linux began (and in any real sense still is) as one man's hobby. It has been a huge success as a hobbyist/experimentor's system, and rightly continues to be so. As far as I believe, since Puppy is clearly a volunteer hobbyist effort, no-one has a right to make demands of anyone contributing to Puppy, regardless of the importance of their own efforts within the community at large. Major/fundamental open source efforts such as Linux kernel work, Gnome, KDE and so on, are a different matter since they are marketed as professional alternatives to Microsoft products and so on. Had Puppy been adopted by the One Laptop Per Child project (or similar professional/non-hobby international project), that would be a different matter of course, since such committment comes with external responsibility.

In my opionion, in its current development model, Puppy Linux does not have and should not be expected to have any responsibility with anything any of its many users do with the freely given offering.

[James C]

Well, for Puppy 5 "Kennel", it will be Barry K.....................

[PaulBx1]

I've been busy elsewhere and missed much of this, thankfully. However I will throw in a few comments.

Ecomoney thinks he has found a "mission" for himself in promoting low-cost computing for the unfortunate masses.

Having helped out such organisations myself with computing using Puppy, I can understand the warm feeling you get when everything goes well with the installation(s).

However, let's not become self-satisfied about all this. What we have here is a distro forum that deals with a hobbyist OS. People give of their time and energy simply because they get get a kick out of their hobby - nothing more than that. The words "mission" and "hobby" mean two entirely different things.

This point seems to be at the center of the dispute, beyond the usual personal incompatibilities.

First, I don't understand why anyone would criticize ecomoney for his self-selected mission. Yeah, maybe it's not your thing, but why sneer at him for doing it?

Is it bad for Puppy to be at least reasonably popular? At least reasonably useful for "the masses"? The world of computing is liberally strewn with the corpses of software that was only meant to be for hobbyists.

I can see the other side too. Obviously the developers need to retain interest in what they are doing.

To me, the solution seems to be pretty simple.

For those in ecomoney's shoes, test the new release. If it's pretty close, lobby for some simple fixes. If you are ignored, go back to recommending the old release for your customers. It's what I do. I've skipped many a release because the "new" was not better, at least on my hardware, than the "old". Don't get offended if people don't take your advice for a fix. And go read Dale Carnegie's book (I'm serious) if you would like your suggestions to have a better reception.

For the "hobbyists", well, this forum and this distro is simply NOT just for hobbyists. You ought to make a reasonable accommodation with people who actually want to use Puppy without knowing much about the internals. We don't really ask for much. A release now and then just for bug fixes, without flashy new features, just to keep us around and on board. One where the major applications actually work. Is that so hard?

[ecomoney]

PaulBx1, thank you for that link, its something Ive had on my reading list without a doubt, I can see Ive not come across well, and probably even been counterproductive.

I CAN actually see some of the points of view...it needs to be kept fun for the hobbyists to contribute, developers prefer advanced functions that new users see as bugs and inconveniences, Dev, dont mind bugs and like new features, users like to stick with what is works and is stable.

Its not black and white...there are shades of grey. How bright has puppy been up to now? Its always been focused more towards the end user, that is what brought me (and countless others) to it. This is pointed out in an interview with Barry I found recently. Its obvious from his Mission statement exactly what shade of grey he started Puppy to be.

Ive noticed a change come over the place just recenty, Devs (mentioning no names) have been able to introduce untested core packages into standard puppy with no question, set the standards themselves. Technical brilliance rather than simple usability has been praised....this is a slippery slope away from the ideals that has made puppy Popular....and it so needs to be popular right now. Puppy has to stay true to its principles!

The challenge to the Devs (and they like challenges) is to produce apps and functions that JUST WORK, to understand the users needs, and the environment they are in and come from, and to develop something that meets those needs, with the utmost technical skill, and least amount of MB. Which other distribution could give a developer such a challenge?

Sorry Tronkel, Ive come across badly. Im not evangelising for any change in Puppy Linux...Im trying to keep its principles constant.

Anyway, it appears http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... ry is back, at least for 5.xx series...so all of this is pretty academic for the time being.

[trio]

ecomoney

now, that's more like it! your words is now polite and nice....keep it up, may your goals come true in a nicer way...

[tronkel]

mcewanw wrote:

Much though I understand most of Stallman's concerns, I do find his dictates stifling

Well said mcewanw!

That is exactly what I have been trying to get across to Ecomoney. I used a religious metaphor, but you have actually managed to find an example that comes directly out of the world of open source itself.

Kudos

[tronkel]

Ecomoney wrote:

Sorry Tronkel, Ive come across badly. Im not evangelising for any change in Puppy Linux...Im trying to keep its principles constant.

That is not really how your points of view concerning Puppy comes across though IMO. Look at your recent exchanges with WhoDo and Ttuuxxx for example. Plenty of examples there of pushing for de facto change in Puppy's balance of principles compared to the the current set-up.

OK though, no problem matey, you are entitled to your point of view too. There is a lot of merit in what you say as well.

You might however get to where you want Puppy to be faster, by simply being less overtly evangelistic. That's all!

[raffy]

and should the user still choose to deploy the new version (4.2) that has an Abiword problem, then s/he can use four words as label under the Abiword icon:

Code: Select all

Dont use Times font

This is just to demonstrate that there are many imaginative ways to solve a user problem, in the meantime that a more permanent fix is in place.

Should the user require some accountability by the Dev for user results, then by all means have a support contract. Else we are all volunteers here and we ought to help each other, and if others cant help you/me, then be ready to help your/myself.

This self-help possibility is precisely why we try to we make thoughtful and detailed TECHNICAL forum posts. And to make reading and searching (and working in general) easy, we try to avoid argumentative (me vs you) posts.

Years back, I was supporting a group with Puppy version 2.02 (minipup), and someone in the group was requesting Turkish localization. I PM'd one Dev here, but my request was ignored. So I assumed that he was telling me "I trust you can help yourself", so I searched for the solution and found it in this forum.

Devs are a helpful people (how else could they have become Devs?), but when they withhold help from you, there is no reason to take offense. Think about it as a vote of confidence in you: "Hey, you can do that, cant you?"

[moogsydodong]

ei guys...

too much heat has been shed in the forum recently...this looks exciting

puppy is beginning to be more fun than ever...anyway just wanna say continue what your doing...throw your opinions in each others faces then at the same time do what you do best...the developers do the building...the testers test and report...then us the end users will use puppy and its puplets with sheer delight...thanks...

NOW CHILDREN...whats next??? must read the forum for updates...
and more funny exchanges...

[ttuuxxx]

ei guys...

too much heat has been shed in the forum recently...this looks exciting

puppy is beginning to be more fun than ever...anyway just wanna say continue what your doing...throw your opinions in each others faces then at the same time do what you do best...the developers do the building...the testers test and report...then us the end users will use puppy and its puplets with sheer delight...thanks...

NOW CHILDREN...whats next??? must read the forum for updates...
and more funny exchanges...

Glad you enjoy the show I often laugh at what i'm typing, sometimes I turn red in the face because I'm laughing so much at what I just type.
ttuuxxx