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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
Who's in charge?
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10747
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr 2009, 06:26    Post subject:  

Well Barry is still head of state, so he hand picked the last one and if WhoDo doesn't get his steam back, then we'll just let Barry pick again, and live with it. Smile i think thats the best way, and the next possibility is we have a forum poll. run for like 2 weeks.
ttuuxxx

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr 2009, 17:11    Post subject:  

A poll would need to be announced well ahead of time. Some users don't come to the forum very often, and could easily miss an important poll. It could be made a global announcement so that the thread link appears over the top of everything, everywhere in the forum.

Personally though, I don't think a forum poll would be a very good option. I'm more of a fan of choosing a group of people (verified by Barry) to form a council who would then govern Puppy. That council could then bring in new people by voting amongst themselves. They'd elect a coordinator from either outside or inside themselves, whatever they see fit. Choosing a specific person to be coordinator would eliminate the "cumbersome committee" problem for designing and building Puppy, while still keeping a higher power above the coordinator to handle things like choosing a new coordinator, maintaining overall control of Puppy and Puppy-related assetts (websites, repos, etc), and otherwise filling the gaps in situations where the coordinator is not applicable or available.

The problem is I don't know whether we have enough dedicated and knowledgeable people yet who'd be willing to take part. This is more of a long term sustainability thing than an implement tomorrow thing - can't rely on Barry to step in every time somebody retires.

But that's just my opinion.

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 00:20    Post subject:  

Quote:
Lobster can be a "temporary" leader


I could not lead a fish to water. Also I have acute megalomania . . .
Also too crazy.
Today Puppy. Tomorrow the whirled . . . . . . it has already started . . .

If Lobster becomes even temporary 'leader' - I am leaving! Shocked

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 00:37    Post subject:  

The problem of having a committee would that it would become too developer-centric. Puppy needs to look after the needs of "linux newbs"...according to BarryK's original mission statement (check my sig).

That would put current windows users in charge Wink

Someone with real world experience, *some* background in Windows, perhaps even a qualification or two, or similar project management experience. Ability to remain calm, accept criticism (and bugreports) as information, remain polite to others, and organise a team. . and some technical skill would also be needed.

Think of it as a Job Description

C.V.'s please

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10747
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 03:18    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
The problem of having a committee would that it would become too developer-centric. Puppy needs to look after the needs of "linux newbs"...according to BarryK's original mission statement (check my sig).

That would put current windows users in charge Wink

Someone with real world experience, *some* background in Windows, perhaps even a qualification or two, or similar project management experience. Ability to remain calm, accept criticism (and bugreports) as information, remain polite to others, and organise a team. . and some technical skill would also be needed.
-
Think of it as a Job Description

C.V.'s please


your so full of it Smile
lets look at what you said and break it down, shall we?
Everyone has a background in windows here who would possibly do this.
All the people who followed 4.2 would know what project management is, especially how to improve on the tiny things that were over looked in 4.2.
Ability to remain calm and accept criticism? Against what,,, you? your the only pain in the butt in 4.2, If you would of known how to actually have some patience and how to properly address the people doing all the work, WhoDo would still be here.
"Some technical skill needed?" <--- you put that on the bottom of the list as a low priority ? Man a lot of technical skill is need and this should be on the top of the list, You couldn't do this on you best day. Its not like you add the packages and run a script, for one thing you need to know some server side terminal code to upload to ibiblio, because they don't use any ftp programs, just ssh. Next you need to know the ins&outs of a operating system so you don't mess things up, like replacing certain system backends will make everything shot. Its actaully a very complicated task, plus you should be able to compile, know the linux directory structure, able to strip files, and know which ones to strip, lol Being Linux savvy is the top of the list.
Worrying if the person gets angry at people like yourself is the bottom of list, if its even there at all,

Main goals to get the Job done!
- Know your Linux stuff,
- Take the time to organize, contemplate with others, get a feel for it and then do it,
- Try not to pissoff the other developers,team members along the way.
- Functionality, Simplicity, Stability, are the Main OS needs
- have testers test every function of each newly updated or introduced program, one at a time.
-make your own schedule of releases. This isn't a update, builds are tricky and complicated .
Even beta's are released on Distrowatch by some linux distro's, so why don't we release them in the forum officially? I wouldn't put a beta on Distrowatch.
Lockdown of new/updated software after beta2, then just bug hunting.
One month testing of the final RC, get as man bugs out as possible.
...........
...........
...................
........................
..................
very bottom of the list, "Worry about ecomoney" lol
And Never post your CV to ecomoney, he took no role or devoted any time in the build of 4.2, the most he did was complain, and some how he always thinks he's in charge, ecomoney most of been a lazy bully in school, lol Laughing
ttuuxxx

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Last edited by ttuuxxx on Tue 28 Apr 2009, 03:33; edited 1 time in total
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5726
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 03:25    Post subject:  

Ttuuxxx, just wait for the response in a bit.......
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 05:41    Post subject:  

Its best if I dont encourage people who continually breach the forum code of conduct. People who cant keep to that shouldnt even be on here.

heres my "logical response".

-I contributed quite a bit to 4.2 - bug reports, feature suggestions, feedback, and a fully-functional working office suite and web-browser as add ons. Read the development threads its all there. What I contributed works.

-knowledge of "breaking" any of puppies backend, and informing the co-ordinator structure is the job of a lead developer.

-Programs should only be included if they have been tested. They need compiling before they can be tested. The co-ordinator doesnt need to compile, just check if the package has been tested before including. This requires organizational skills.

-Functionality and Stability are mutually exclusive

-Printing/word processing/wireless are not "tiny things" to the majority of puppy users.

-Being able not to annoy others and work as part of a team is an important skill Ttuxxx

I believe who is "in charge" would be a topic of interest to those who it most effects.....puppies users. Perhaps this thread should be moved there in order to be more transparent. Its important to get some contribution from more than just the usual contributors on this matter.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10747
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 06:28    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:


-I contributed quite a bit to 4.2 -
bug reports, You made threats in PM's and put down people trying there hardest, something to be proud of?? lol

feature suggestions, For your clients at end, pretty much selfish reasoning.

feedback, You meant to say complaints and very few praises
fully-functional working office suite and web-browser as add ons. LOL that wasn't work 4.2, it didn't even get put into the repo because its over twice the size of the distro, Do you really think you did that for 4.2 or did you share some of client based software? I still have a older firefox 2 series,flash,java on package on puppy linux ca that auto updates to 2.20 also, he I might as well say I did that for 4.2 also, lol come on, That precompiled Office suite you lifted from sourceforge all you did with that is extract it into a folder and typed in a terminal dir2sfs lol and thats it. It took me longer to type about it than it took you to package it.

Read the development threads its all there. What I contributed works. Yes it works because you take other peoples compiled packages that are already know to work fine, you put them into a directory and make a pet or sfs out of it, well if I waited for everybody else to do it for me and just repackage everything thing puppy would have about a min 300 less packages working, and out of maybe 300 That I've compiled, not just repackaged and called my own,lol that maybe less than 10 worked out of the box, hence why I don't really test them all that much, If I click on the bin or the menu item and it works, usually thats good enough, then its up to the general public to report back, so I spend my time bringing newer software to puppy. and come back and work on any of the bugs if need be.

-knowledge of "breaking" any of puppies backend, and informing the coordinator structure is the job of a lead developer. Not really If you've been reading yesterday I figured out that when you build gtk it makes a CUPS plugin based on your installed CUPS version, Now keep that in mind, most didn't know that, usually when you build a system, gtk is compiled before CUPS, but basically it would be best to build GTK first, then CUPS, then Replace GTK again the CUPS plugin, WhoDo knows this now, But say we get another new developer say tomorrow and 6 months down the road he wants to be coordinator without that previous knowledge learned as WhoDo has learned, who would be better off? I would say WhoDo. Well there is a lot of learning as you go and seasoned coordinators are really the best option, next option is a developer/packager that knows the ins and outs, you can't just take any joe and make him coordinator, Thats plain stupid. Being around a build from start to finish is someone you need.

-Programs should only be included if they have been tested. They need compiling before they can be tested. The co-ordinator doesnt need to compile, just check if the package has been tested before including. This requires organizational skills. Thats not the coordinator's job at all, Thats the testers job, you know the one you failed at, lol, The coordinator has enough things to do, do you really think a coordinator has time to do that, During 4.2 I summited over 100 packages including updates, So its up to WhoDo to test all those fully? your off your meds or something.

-Functionality and Stability are mutually exclusive

-Printing/word processing/wireless are not "tiny things" to the majority of puppy users.
Puppy has never a true final release, really the best puppy version ever made was Beta quality, having printing and word processing/wireless not working still puts that release a beta, it would be alpha quality if it crashed frequently, and since its still good for daya to day task its a beta, When did any main puppy versions not have any bugs, think back, full screen either on youtube or gxine, or had printing issues with somebody, and also it was only the MS import feature on abiword that did work right, you still could type and save and reopen documents.

-Being able not to annoy others and work as part of a team is an important skill Ttuxxx, Well as long as they go with the flow I'm fine, If they try to take things away from me, I'll respond the way I feel, I won't hold back. Stress is one thing I don't keep in, I'll live longer not having it bottled up inside, so if you piss me off, 100% money back guarantee you'll here about it ASAP!

I believe who is "in charge" would be a topic of interest to those who it most effects.....puppies users. Perhaps this thread should be moved there in order to be more transparent. Its important to get some contribution from more than just the usual contributors on this matter. What was that a silent jab, nice one

ttuuxxx

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 06:35    Post subject:  

OK, I'm convinced now. I vote for Ttuuxxx as the co-ordinator and developer for the next main Puppy version.

Reason?

He has got the priorities exactly right. Cool

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sikpuppy


Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 06:54    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
Its best if I dont encourage people who continually breach the forum code of conduct. People who cant keep to that shouldnt even be on here.


(My underline).

How many times can the code be breached before it is considered continual? Is there a limit to how long one can wait before they decide to breach again? (hours, days, weeks...) Does the end justify the means?

At this time the moderation policy seems to be to treat posters as adults. The trouble is that stagnancy of moderation allows people to act like children, it's very much like a session in federal parliament.

The speaker of the house calls order, and warns people. However if there is continual warning and the speaker still does nothing, the house falls into disarray.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 06:55    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
-I contributed quite a bit to 4.2 - bug reports, feature suggestions, feedback, and a fully-functional working office suite and web-browser as add ons. Read the development threads its all there. What I contributed works.

What you contributed was AFTER the event; i.e. after the release of 4.2

What you contributed DOESN'T work, if the thread announcing it is something to go by - numerous posters declaring serious problems with your self-proclaimed "Mature, stable, enhanced and *very* well tested browser package", like "I get an error when I try to install"(sic). So much for "*very* well tested", eh?

ecomoney wrote:
-Programs should only be included if they have been tested.

In an open source, volunteer developer project like Puppy that is just utter nonsense. The only way such programs get tested is precisely by including them in Alpha, Beta and RC versions. As I have pointed out before, Barry has even resorted to releasing a "Final" in order to get it properly tested and knowing full well that a point1 update would follow when the testing was completed.

ecomoney wrote:
-Functionality and Stability are mutually exclusive

Huh? IOW you are saying there is can never be any such thing as a functional and stable OS, or application, or device driver, etc.? I bet there's a rider in there that your definition of "Functionality" and "Stability" apply but you just forgot to tell the rest of us!

ecomoney wrote:
-Printing/word processing/wireless are not "tiny things" to the majority of puppy users.

No they are not, which is why Puppy is so popular. For must users in most circumstances these things "just work" in Puppy - including 4.2 - and so they should given the amount of effort the devs here put into making that happen.

Does that mean those things necessarily work for ALL users in ALL circumstances? Of course not! No operating system on earth does that! In the realm of Linux the anecdotal evidence is that Puppy does it better than most, AND if the devs are left to enjoy their hobby instead of being harassed over non-existent "bugs" that reputation will continue to grow and improve.

ecomoney wrote:
-Being able not to annoy others and work as part of a team is an important skill Ttuxxx

ummmm....if you know that, why do you apparently find it so difficult?

ecomoney wrote:
I believe who is "in charge" would be a topic of interest to those who it most effects.....puppies users. Perhaps this thread should be moved there in order to be more transparent. Its important to get some contribution from more than just the usual contributors on this matter.

Moved where? This thread is in the main forum accessible to all, not hidden in sub-forum under New Puppy Development! BTW, I noticed that you posted what you obviously perceive is your own CV as a position description for coordinator above. Tch, tch, tch. Talk about naked ambition! Put some clothes on, Rob, for pity's sake! Rolling Eyes

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01micko


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PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 07:39    Post subject:  

ecomoney

I do not wish to attack you. You, as I see it, are a necessary evil. Twisted Evil (sorry Warren, but if it wasn't him it would probably be someone else, however, possibly in a different manner).

There were what? 4 alphas? 4 betas? 4 RCs? Then final. (shoot me if I'm wrong) Laughing

Rob, where were your reports on all these?

You were busy setting up alphas in internet cafes accross GB.

Then we come to the video your father is (was?) going to make. Yeah, my suggestion, I even went into bat for you. Maybe ttuuxxx should have made it. It was only to show off trio's Tv widget, a small add on to stock 4.2 (apologies ttuuxxx and trio Wink )

Lobster made one.

Yes, yes, I know I said I would work on an ICS for puppy but it is a little beyond my capabilities at the moment, however, I still intend to learn and then do. Hopefully, people around here will help me, there are countless who already have, and, due to that help I can overcome almost any obstacle in Puppy.

Why is that?

Why do people help me?

I make a lot of noise around here. People may think I'm obnoxiuos. So beit. I don't think for them. I cop it on the chin. I speak my mind, and may have even hurt some feelings, but never on a personal level. In a personal direction , maybe, but not directly. And usually it is constructive. Anything I've said derogatory is general, check all of my 1500 or so posts if you want. I'd say half are helpful, technical, or inquisitive posts. The other half either political or fun.

Yeah quote the "Derryn Hinch" one if you want, but be fair and leave the link. I won't edit it.

I like what you're doing Rob, the cafes and such, but do you think there might be a better way to go about things?

Cheers

Mick

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 13:59    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
do you think there might be a better way to go about things?


I am a Puppy Linux Tester. I do it because I take pride in contributing to the best puppy linux possible, to the best of my abilities. I like other contributors - am proud when I do it for free, and I am prouder when my contribution is recognized and valued by others around me on and off the forum.

My job is to discover problems, and pass them onto those with the skills to solve them. In this case, since this is a "political" thread, its my role to point out there is a problem, and how big a problem. Up to the readers to research and verify the information posted above and below for its truth and accuracy.

Its not my job to continually repost answers to existing questions from the same people all over this information all over the forum (That is what the user support people in "beginners help" do). This is not the place for it and that would only detract from the important issue being discussed here.

Im only here to point out there is a problem, and its obviously a big one.

Whodo, as Project co-ordinator and person ultimately responsible for 4.2, I consider a great recognition that you name me as the person responsible for pointing out the single root cause of all the problems in Puppy DeepThought 4.2.x, and I give you great recognition for ensuring (with your resignation) that they are not repeated in future releases. I hope you will take the time now to reflect, and adjust.

Now that Ive identified the cause and the bugs are now rectified, would you also discharge me from the duties you made me responsible for. Puppy is not a hobby to me it is a Mission

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 14:30    Post subject:  

When using the name feature of the quote tag, you need to actually put quotation marks around the name or it doesn't work right.

---------------------

My style of moderation is largely hands-off. When I do moderate, attempt to do so with words. I consider my moderator-buttons last resorts. I've been itching to use them lately... not a good sign. If things start getting worse again, I intend to moderate with significantly less moderation.


But like I said, I think the bulk of the trouble is over, and we're just caught up in the leftover cloud of hostility. Using my buttons would probably do more harm than good at this point. So let's give words another shot.

One thing that will help the hostility dissipate is if everybody follows these very simple guidelinse:

If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing.

If what you have to say has already been said recently, then don't say it.

(I'm not just referring to posting about known bugs here - one of the big annoyances we had during 4.2's development was people complaining repeatedly about the same thing/things (unrelated to bugs).)

I think that if we can follow those guidelines, things will become much more friendly.

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ComputerBob


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PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 14:36    Post subject:  

Pizzasgood wrote:
If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing.

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