Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Sat 25 Oct 2014, 19:06
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
smallest linux?
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
Page 1 of 2 Posts_count   Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
kethd

Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Boston MA USA

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2005, 11:35    Post_subject:  smallest linux?  

What is the smallest, complete, self-compiling Linux?
Is there even such a thing?

Puppy is "small" - only about 50MB. But it is not "self-contained" at all. It does not include the source code. It does not include the tools for processing the source code. It does not include the source code for those tools...

Some Puppy source is made available. How complete it is seems fuzzy... Anyway, it seems to be at least three CDs!

There are some quite small Linux distributions. Some fit on just one floppy disk, such as tomsrtbt. But how big is the source? And the tools? And the source for the tools?

Does anyone have a linux that is complete and self-contained, preferably all fitting on one CD? With a simple magic re-make-everything script? GUI, web browsers, etc not required -- just a usable kernel, command-line utilities, file system, etc.

Interesting references:

http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/redhat71-v1/redhat71sloc.html
a list of the current total source sizes for Linux -- the kernel is over 2 million lines of code
2437470 kernel-2.4.2 ansic=2285657,asm=144411,sh=3035,perl=2022,yacc=1147, tcl=576,lex=302,awk=248,sed=72

A tiny self-compiling C compiler - only about a thousand bytes!
http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/otcc/
My goal was to write the smallest C compiler which is able to compile itself. I choose a subset of C which was general enough to write a small C compiler. Then I extended the C subset until I reached the maximum size authorized by the contest: 2048 bytes of C source excluding the ';', '{', '}' and space characters.

http://www.toms.net/rb/
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11122
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2005, 12:08    Post_subject:  

This may sound off-topic, but have you heard of Forth? It combines a programming language with an operating system, in a very small package.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
kethd

Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Boston MA USA

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2005, 13:25    Post_subject:  

Yes, I think I did mess with Forth back in the 1980's... I do remember it being very compact, but can't recall if it also has self-compiling aspects.

Is there a Forth, Lua, Python...? We need a wiki page summarizing programming languages for Puppy: what is available, how to get it, etc. The closest I can find is
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/OnlineResources

That is actually a very interesting resource/list -- but seems to have nothing to do with actually installing programming languages locally...
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2005, 14:23    Post_subject: Programming Languages in Puppy  

Flash is going Forth again (Lock up your programmers)

Languages IN Puppy:
    Linux Script (similar to MS Dos batch files) Widely used by GuestToo and Barry
    Tcl/tk (pronounced tickle and very powerful and mature)
    PuppyBasic - also called wxbasicscript ( a smaller version of wxbasic) - we are just starting with this - MU created this especially for Puppy
    XUL - built into Mozilla - I think this has great potential for Puppy but am too stupid to implement . . . Byzantine OS uses this
    SVG - similar to actionscript - seen a tetris game written in this at croczilla. . .
    javascript - thus of course Ajax (the present hyped language)
    Actionscript - well there is openflash and wink but no one is programming directly in this

Also available:
    Lua - pupget - very interesting language for games (as a glue) - good community
    Tinyc - front end may be in preparation . . .
    GCC C (Puppy can compile its own code with an add on)
    nasm - assembler (G2 dotpup)

Also available in special circumstances with a following wind:

    Perl - pupget
    Java - command line version available somewhere
    Ruby - With Qemu Puppy
    Python - available from grafpup
    Xbasic - just go to website and install - GUI code also runs on Windows
    Gambas - I loved this but no one else was keen
    RealBasic - now free - not got this working John Murga may have done so?
    ASQ - pre alpha design stage - Lobster insanity
    X11 Basic (was a potential Puppy Basic - never got used)


What have I missed?

Rolling Eyes

_________________
Puppy WIKI
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11122
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2005, 15:22    Post_subject:  

kethd wrote:
Yes, I think I did mess with Forth back in the 1980's... I do remember it being very compact, but can't recall if it also has self-compiling aspects...
As I understand it, Forth is an interpreted language; each 'word' that makes up the program is compiled and executed on the fly. The general idea of Forth is the only logical, self-explanatory, or intuitive approach to a programming language that I've seen. For some reason no one can explain, it can't get any respect - as Lobster's post shows. Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2005, 16:34    Post_subject:  

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
http://www.gentoo.org/

These are Distributions built from source on the End-users machine.

For a concept like Puppy it would make no sense.
Example:

wxBasic is built from the sources of Gtk, wxWidgets, Basic.

The final binary is 2 MB compressed.
The source + uncompressed binaries of wxWidgets + Basic is approx 70 MB.
You if you would add all this into puppy, you could not use it on small USB-sticks.

Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
GuestToo
Puppy Master

Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 4078

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2005, 19:55    Post_subject:  

Quote:
it is not "self-contained" at all. It does not include the source code

most distros do not come with the complete source code for every program, library, and driver

just the source for the 2.6.14 kernel, for example, is 200 megs ... Puppy's kernel, vmlinuz, is about 1 meg compiled
http://kernel.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
EarlSmith

Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Chelsea, Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2005, 22:52    Post_subject:  

Lobster, I think you missed COMAL. It is a DotPup. I used it in the '80's and found it very pleasing to use.
Also used Forth in the early '90's. It took a while to get the hang of it, but also found it great after it "clicked" in my mind. It is a joy to use after the steep learning curve.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
noip

Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 93
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 06:22    Post_subject:  

As far as a self-contained Linux including source code on One CD, I think you may find that a distro like Lunar might be what you are looking for.

Go to www.Distrowatch.com and check it, and Source-Mage out. They are about 300 meg, I think, and enable you to compile a basic command line system. You are then expected to build your complete system by downloading and compiling the rest of the components from downloads.

Either that, or Linux from Scratch .....


Rgds

GS

ftgs
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Guest
Guest


PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 13:39    Post_subject:  

I've gotten FORTRAN up and running with Puppy by following the advice on the forum.
Back to top
kethd

Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Boston MA USA

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 22:39    Post_subject:  

Thanks for all those great comments and resources!

A 50MB Puppy cannot be completely self-regenerating self-contained, since that would greatly conflict with a prime goal of max ordinary-usable-function. But in theory, there could be a 700MB PuppyMaster version. In our current reality, we might have to settle for someday hoping for a one-DVD version along those lines.

It seems like it would be a great learning experience to work through Linux From Scratch -- but I can't tell if it contains the sources for all the tools it uses, or just the sources to make itself.

Gentoo seems like something I'd like to try. (Maybe it is pretty totally self-contained.) But not yet, not by far -- it sounds way too complex. I want to try to understand as much as possible. That's why I am starting with Puppy -- the small size seduces me into imagining it might be one of the most understandable distros, in terms of the whole internal structure. At least, I should be able to do serious work with it on the most limited equipment, compared to larger distros.

An entertaining tale of a rookie who eventually succeeds with Gentoo:
Source-based Linux distributions from a beginner's perspective
(contributed by Arvan Reese)
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20040510

Lobster, thanks for the great list of Programs! I'll try to wiki it, unless someone else does first...

(The from-source distros that dynamically pull all the pieces from cyberspace are sort of the opposite of what I am thinking of here. I am living at the end of a 28.8kbps pipe most of the time. Occasionally, I am lucky enough to get access to a fat pipe, CD burner etc. I have to drag everything back to my lair. And even getting one CD image worth of material may take weeks of planning/attempts etc.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 22:56    Post_subject:  

After what I read in my german linuxboard:
Gentoo is easy - but just if you read the very detailed Introduction.

Gentoo is not "learning by doing" - it is learning by studying literature.

I personally prefer another approach:
Started with a grafical System (Suse 5 or 6), and later slowly stepped deeper into Details with Micro-Linux and by learning "Linux"-Programming-languages like Tcl and Perl. Just trial and error with completely messing up the system (off course studying docs, too).

But though i use Linux since 7 years now, there still are things I watch with respect (don't understand everything), like building a kernel for example (not just "do a.) do b.) do c.)" , but understanding how all that works).

Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
jcoder24


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 601
Location: Barbados

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 23:35    Post_subject:  

kethd wrote:
It seems like it would be a great learning experience to work through Linux From Scratch -- but I can't tell if it contains the sources for all the tools it uses, or just the sources to make itself.


Linux From Scratch (LFS) has a live cd (390 MB) that contains all the sources and tools needed to allow you to follow the included LFS book to build the LFS system. Check distrowatch, a new version was just released.

The live cd boots into text mode but you can access a gui with the xfce wm by issuing the startx command. The LFS book on the cd is in html format.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
kethd

Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Boston MA USA

PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 10:44    Post_subject:  

I just stumbled on this good resource:
http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=links
Which has some nice, organized lists of related things, such as:
Small and Floppy-based Linux Distributions
Embedded Linux Distributions
Windows-based Linux Distributions
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
kethd

Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Boston MA USA

PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 13:07    Post_subject: Puppy Programming Languages  

I started a wiki page of Programming Languages:
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/ProgrammingLanguage
Please add to it whenever the spirit moves you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Display_posts:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 2 Posts_count   Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
Jump to:  

Rules_post_cannot
Rules_reply_cannot
Rules_edit_cannot
Rules_delete_cannot
Rules_vote_cannot
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1019s ][ Queries: 11 (0.0196s) ][ GZIP on ]