I've been watching the progress of Barry K's "retirement" for some time now and just wanted to share some thoughts and ideas. Well, personal feelings really.
The amount of time this guy has devoted to working on this project, which he gives away *for free*, is staggering. I don't think there's very many people here who have any idea just how much work it is. Frankly, from one point of view you could argue it borders on mental illness. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for Puppy and would be more than a little sad to see it fade away. I'd be pretty distraught at times because occasionally I really rely on it to get some things done when my current OS has a problem, because I am confident that the hardware support will "just work".
I'd be just as sad to see Barry really and truly retire, because frankly I don't think a suitable replacement exists. I like a lot of the people here, but the community development model just never seemed to work well for Puppy in my eyes. And remember this is coming from the guy who supervised the first community developed release. I don't really think Puppy can survive for all that long without Barry. I may be wrong, and I hope I'm wrong, but that's how it looks to me.
But frankly, I'm not advocating asking any more of Barry K. I think he's gone way above and beyond and a brak would be pretty damn good for him. It's really his decision in the long run, but when I read his latest blog post, the thread he referred to, and then the comments on his blog, I didn't know which of the three made me more sad. If Barry needs to retire I don't think it's a good idea to keep pushing him back. If he just WANTS to retire I'd respect that, too. If that means Puppy fades into obscurity then that's a terrible thing, but so be it. I for one will find another way to do what I need to on my computer.
I'm guessing there will be a lot of replies but don't expect me to be around to answer them. I may check back in from time to time but for the most part I'm just busy with other projects and pursuits. However, I do have a certain fondness for some of the people here, so if any of the old gang want to chat you can email me off forum. NFisher DOT sr AT gMail dot com
Best wishes to Puppy, and I hope against hope that this mighty little distro will find a way to stay alive for years to come.
Nathan
Just some of my thoughts
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Nathan F
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Just some of my thoughts
Bring on the locusts ...
Bugger Barry - Nathan F.
I've got me a plan.
Going to get 01micko to make me up a Pup suit.
First pic.
Then I'm gonna fly tp Penjori, watch out for crocs on
my flight from Sydney...2nd pic..
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... &start=405
When I arrive I'm just going to buzz around his
Western Australia palace....gotta watch out for that
bloody big cactus plant he grows there, as well as his
half finished windmill and annoy Bazza,
till he gets off his acre and comes out.
"""""
I'll come armed with a packet of Iced Vo Vos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iced_Vo_Vo
and a packet of Epsom salts because I reckon he's run out of his
bickies and now he's got a case of SOL....so both of these
medicinals should work.
I'm also contacting John Biles to give me some movie reel film,
he's a cinema projectionist isn't he?
so something light so that I don't tire myself out on my flight,
but also strong enough to tie him down to the Puppy wheel.
Not going to let him go a second time.
Then I will ring Madame Tussauds
http://www.madametussauds.com/
and get a cast made....and this bloke can live on forever.
Yes ! there's got to be a Bob in this somewhere.
My only worry might be the number of people not
being able to eat for a day or two.
I'm not saying that me and lycra don't mix,
just that where you might want to see Arnie you get Danny.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096320/
Anyway that';s the plan.
Just need the phone call from Mick and BKs troubles will be over.
Chris.
I've got me a plan.
Going to get 01micko to make me up a Pup suit.
First pic.
Then I'm gonna fly tp Penjori, watch out for crocs on
my flight from Sydney...2nd pic..
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... &start=405
When I arrive I'm just going to buzz around his
Western Australia palace....gotta watch out for that
bloody big cactus plant he grows there, as well as his
half finished windmill and annoy Bazza,
till he gets off his acre and comes out.
"""""
I'll come armed with a packet of Iced Vo Vos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iced_Vo_Vo
and a packet of Epsom salts because I reckon he's run out of his
bickies and now he's got a case of SOL....so both of these
medicinals should work.
I'm also contacting John Biles to give me some movie reel film,
he's a cinema projectionist isn't he?
so something light so that I don't tire myself out on my flight,
but also strong enough to tie him down to the Puppy wheel.
Not going to let him go a second time.
Then I will ring Madame Tussauds
http://www.madametussauds.com/
and get a cast made....and this bloke can live on forever.
Yes ! there's got to be a Bob in this somewhere.
My only worry might be the number of people not
being able to eat for a day or two.
I'm not saying that me and lycra don't mix,
just that where you might want to see Arnie you get Danny.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096320/
Anyway that';s the plan.
Just need the phone call from Mick and BKs troubles will be over.
Chris.
young blood
People tend to forget that when Puppy Linux developed, there were young blood in its midst, and these people had been very active in the development of 4.2.
Some examples:
- Even when the release of 4.2 was imminent, Pizzasgood (PG) was still bug-fixing the core libs in Puppy. (PG subsequently released a multiuser 4.2.1. PG also put up a versioning and build system for 4.2, but it was overtaken by the arrival of Woof.)
- Using his first-hand experience in building 4.2, ttuuxxx went on to rebuild 214X (as well as release Puppies [Firefox build] of new Puppy versions).
The community, and Barry himself, is aware that these young people (PG, ttuuxxx, many others) would follow in his footsteps, and strive to put out a Puppy consistent with its mission.
But docs were scattered in the forum, and observers had difficulty following development, so somehow they tend to miss the fine points and the hard work involved.
In addition, the lack of versioning system somehow contributed to the problem of continuity in the community effort.
Such missing elements caused a misunderstanding, for example, of how well the 4.2 team had debugged the underlying system, and so Barry released 4.3 and old bugs suddenly reappeared. It was an uncomfortable situation. Some Forum members started asking questions, and the parties involved began debating on what really happened.
Now it is becoming clear to everyone that version releases will be more a community responsibility, whereas Barry will be happy exploring new frontiers, something that he does best.
It's a win for everyone. The community is learning how to work together better.
Some examples:
- Even when the release of 4.2 was imminent, Pizzasgood (PG) was still bug-fixing the core libs in Puppy. (PG subsequently released a multiuser 4.2.1. PG also put up a versioning and build system for 4.2, but it was overtaken by the arrival of Woof.)
- Using his first-hand experience in building 4.2, ttuuxxx went on to rebuild 214X (as well as release Puppies [Firefox build] of new Puppy versions).
The community, and Barry himself, is aware that these young people (PG, ttuuxxx, many others) would follow in his footsteps, and strive to put out a Puppy consistent with its mission.
But docs were scattered in the forum, and observers had difficulty following development, so somehow they tend to miss the fine points and the hard work involved.
In addition, the lack of versioning system somehow contributed to the problem of continuity in the community effort.
Such missing elements caused a misunderstanding, for example, of how well the 4.2 team had debugged the underlying system, and so Barry released 4.3 and old bugs suddenly reappeared. It was an uncomfortable situation. Some Forum members started asking questions, and the parties involved began debating on what really happened.
Now it is becoming clear to everyone that version releases will be more a community responsibility, whereas Barry will be happy exploring new frontiers, something that he does best.
It's a win for everyone. The community is learning how to work together better.
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].
Barry's accomplishments have been beyond comprehension and there is an unorganized corps of other developers that have provided incredible support.
If Barry were to completely retire, given the work that is already in place, those who need a solid operating system that runs superbly on older equipment will be able to drink from this well for a long time to come. If some of the experienced developers find it in their hearts to continue tweaking and making improvements, I see this project as continuing long into the future, even if it's not at the frenetic pace of the last few years.
If Barry were to completely retire, given the work that is already in place, those who need a solid operating system that runs superbly on older equipment will be able to drink from this well for a long time to come. If some of the experienced developers find it in their hearts to continue tweaking and making improvements, I see this project as continuing long into the future, even if it's not at the frenetic pace of the last few years.
I tend to agree with Nathan F on a number of things, and Raffy too...
I said a while back that it seems like Puppy lost some of it`s good help.
But there`s are other folks who have taken up the slack (no pun intended).
The community model is hit and miss as it is, and only Barry can change it.
As I`ve said, a clearer direction and less scattering of forces and efforts.
There`s things I`ve pointed out that have gone undone for years.
Things get solved, it may be included, it may not, it may stay, it may not...
Puppy kinda pioneered the use of Squash files instead of Cloop files (Knoppix).
Now all the compressed file system distros. use Squash files.
Barry himself has wondered about making use of the union FS setup.
Perhaps starting to move away from using a union is a good direction.
jrb has made a big first step in going this, using SFS files non-unioned.
So far fewer union layers, simple, reliable, and less ram and cpu usage.
No more multiple layers overshadowing each other and no white-out files.
I said a while back that it seems like Puppy lost some of it`s good help.
But there`s are other folks who have taken up the slack (no pun intended).
The community model is hit and miss as it is, and only Barry can change it.
As I`ve said, a clearer direction and less scattering of forces and efforts.
There`s things I`ve pointed out that have gone undone for years.
Things get solved, it may be included, it may not, it may stay, it may not...
Puppy kinda pioneered the use of Squash files instead of Cloop files (Knoppix).
Now all the compressed file system distros. use Squash files.
Barry himself has wondered about making use of the union FS setup.
Perhaps starting to move away from using a union is a good direction.
jrb has made a big first step in going this, using SFS files non-unioned.
So far fewer union layers, simple, reliable, and less ram and cpu usage.
No more multiple layers overshadowing each other and no white-out files.
No mate.
I think the mail man's been tipped off.
And junked it.
Even the dog across the street won't lend me his.
http://www.costumekingdom.com/p-8102-pe ... n-dog.aspx
Chris.
I think the mail man's been tipped off.
And junked it.
Even the dog across the street won't lend me his.
http://www.costumekingdom.com/p-8102-pe ... n-dog.aspx
Chris.
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ttuuxxx
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Well I'm not prepared to toss it in 
I'm working fulltime now so my regular contributions are less now, grrrr If I could win a lottery I would spend 16/18hr days on puppy like before
But I have a mortgage etc. Anyways My main goals are OLPC XO <--Dpup or Upup, 214X, 220. I'm basically working 21days straight 5 regular work and 3 weekends for myself. Well Christmas is coming etc.
As long as I'm around, which I have no plans of leaving, There always be something new to test/use etc.
If Barry was to retire, It would be difficult, but still we could still move forward. Puppy wouldn't be the same as it is now, probably a bit larger, or maybe even smaller, One day well have to decide should we stay bleeding edge kernel or revert and stick with a past kernel, like puppy 4.0.
The newer the kernel that way larger puppy gets. If we reverted back to 4.0 kernel and removed vala etc, would could have a 90MB distro again.
ttuuxxx
I'm working fulltime now so my regular contributions are less now, grrrr If I could win a lottery I would spend 16/18hr days on puppy like before
But I have a mortgage etc. Anyways My main goals are OLPC XO <--Dpup or Upup, 214X, 220. I'm basically working 21days straight 5 regular work and 3 weekends for myself. Well Christmas is coming etc.
As long as I'm around, which I have no plans of leaving, There always be something new to test/use etc.
If Barry was to retire, It would be difficult, but still we could still move forward. Puppy wouldn't be the same as it is now, probably a bit larger, or maybe even smaller, One day well have to decide should we stay bleeding edge kernel or revert and stick with a past kernel, like puppy 4.0.
The newer the kernel that way larger puppy gets. If we reverted back to 4.0 kernel and removed vala etc, would could have a 90MB distro again.
ttuuxxx
Last edited by ttuuxxx on Thu 05 Nov 2009, 07:00, edited 1 time in total.
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
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Lobster
- Official Crustacean
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With out a doubt it will. The impetus has now been generated.this mighty little distro will find a way to stay alive for years
You are using still using BSD?
The last time I tried, I thought this is not quite Linux, out of date and
slower. It has a level of security I do not require and a simplified file system
that is different and I would have to learn.
It does not even support the range of hardware that Linux does.
I wonder though . . . people do like it, so must have something . . .
and perhaps the Woof system could be adapted to use BSD? Not sure
about that one . . .
Are you still using it (clearly you are not using what I have described)?
Will Grafpup ever be updated with a Woof build?
Good to hear your views Nathan. Wish I could say something good about BSD.
Apple use it (relaxed licensing allows it to be closed off) - eh even that is not good . . .
http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ra ... inux10.php
Bugger. I'm sure it is the work of Mick Roshaft...cthisbear wrote:No mate.
I think the mail man's been tipped off.
And junked it.
Even the dog across the street won't lend me his.
Chris.
http://puppy-look.tk/ [scroll down some]
Puppy Linux Blog - contact me for access
Re: Just some of my thoughts
Sorry for getting into this (I'm too new to puppy to know much about it) but BK retiring as the "benevolent dictator" of puppy does not mean that a) he needs to retire from puppy guidance and b) puppy can not be guided by a "benevolent junta" !!!Nathan F wrote: Best wishes to Puppy, and I hope against hope that this mighty little distro will find a way to stay alive for years to come.
I think that a lot of distros have solved leadership issues by a steering committee/oversight board that makes sure that thinks are moving in a given direction and goals, defining the main line and how far you can diverge and still be within the group.
The way that the members are selected in these committees are also fairly established and is voting but not in a democratic way(!!!) where groups with different ideas "fight" for power but in a consensus building way. The Schulze method or one of its variants is one of the most appropriate methods for selecting "winners" on a consensus rather than fraction basis. Interested people can outline their principles/priorities and puppy members can vote on them.
There are issues like who has the right to vote, how many members the board should have, what exactly its job should be etc, but assuming that people agree on the fundamentals these can be worked out.
I think that by know puppy has developed a wide enough and vibrant basis that can be successful without BK's "dictatorship" but just with his participation in a consensus driven group.
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ttuuxxx
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Hi mavrothal Barry has it basically sorted it
If you can build and support a release of woof, feel free to make a puppy version, just maybe get Barry's blessing in Blog first, But its a mammoth task at the least. Its not just updating packages, its fixing things, upgrading things, etc. Very daunting .
ttuuxxx
If you can build and support a release of woof, feel free to make a puppy version, just maybe get Barry's blessing in Blog first, But its a mammoth task at the least. Its not just updating packages, its fixing things, upgrading things, etc. Very daunting .
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
I'm not sure about that.ttuuxxx wrote:Hi mavrothal Barry has it basically sorted it
If you can build and support a release of woof, feel free to make a puppy version, just maybe get Barry's blessing in Blog first, But its a mammoth task at the least. Its not just updating packages, its fixing things, upgrading things, etc. Very daunting .
ttuuxxx
When someone hits "puppylinux download" or "puppy linux' MUST come to a page with the "official" release. Someone or something must decide which one this would be. It better not depend on any particular person's ability to "build and support a release of woof" because a) we are only humans
and b) it can really break up the community if, say 5 people, claim the official puppy: Pupplets and variants is a different story and very nice to have, but the core should be safeguarded somehow, I think..
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ttuuxxx
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I don't know, But Woof Series 5, Barry was ok for Dposil to take over Dpup, and also myself, but I'm too busy with other projects, But he did say I could release puppy 2 series built on woof, Plus he's mentioned others. With 2 series I just asked and he said ok. I'll be focussing on that after 2.14X is Final is released. Plus 4 series I'm already working on continuing, for Xo and others.
ttuuxxx
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
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gposil
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As far as I am concerned, and I think ttuuxxx will back me up here, the only official current release is 4.3.1 and the next will be 4.4CE by technosaurus.
The Puppy 5.0 series in terms of the differing cores...Upup, Dpup, Spup, Tpup and Ppup are at best in varying stages of beta development(some if that). In so far as Barry has sanctioned myself and ttuuxxx to work on Dpup and others on various cores, they will be in no way official until Barry says they are as far as I understand it...
Just my thoughts
The Puppy 5.0 series in terms of the differing cores...Upup, Dpup, Spup, Tpup and Ppup are at best in varying stages of beta development(some if that). In so far as Barry has sanctioned myself and ttuuxxx to work on Dpup and others on various cores, they will be in no way official until Barry says they are as far as I understand it...
Just my thoughts
[img]http://gposil.netne.net/images/tlp80.gif[/img] [url=http://www.dpup.org][b]Dpup Home[/b][/url]
As I said, I know too little about puppy...
My comments where based on the original post and to the premiss that BK's retirement means that he will not be the ONE deciding "what _is_ puppy linux".
To the extend that HE is deciding (which is absolutely fine with me-not that matters in anyway
) all bets are off.
My comments where based on the original post and to the premiss that BK's retirement means that he will not be the ONE deciding "what _is_ puppy linux".
To the extend that HE is deciding (which is absolutely fine with me-not that matters in anyway
) all bets are off.