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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Derivatives quality and qualification
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hendrikus

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 12:47    Post subject:  Derivatives quality and qualification  

I am writing this from a user perspective!!

In my opinion PUPPYLINUX is still the best distro because it has the added value that it runs fully functional in memory from a flashdisk or memory-card and it support hardware for 90% out of the box.

I still regret that Puppy Linux is too much focused on the developers and less on the end user, especially for them puppy would be the greatest operating system available.

This weekend I've tried various derivatives of Puppy (reason was to find a quick and easy OS for my wife’s slow but intense loved HPmini on XP) and have concluded that the original puppy 4.3.2 and Stardust007 worked out of the box. The following systems I had at my disposal, an HPMini1000 (an excellent fit for Puppy) a Compaq CQ20 and a system based on an MSI motherboard.

Reason to install a derivative was because in the opinion of my wife the user interface of the original puppy is not cool. She calls it a bad copy of XP, functions work differently (usually worse) than XP itself. BUT one great advantage .... FAST!!!!

Maybe it has something to do with the tremendous urge to make the OS smaller than the guru himself. This result that many drivers seem to be removed, the derivatives didn’t provide an added value but rather a headache. I am really sorry for of the extreme clever people who contribute wonderful commodities or derivates who are not coming further than experiments without being used by the mass.

Actually, they size doesn't matter so much in my opinion, as long the OS is able to run in 500Mb internal memory I am already happy. a 1 Gb memory cost only $30, the same price as a good meal.

Why not a list of "official" derivates 100% based on the official PUPPY distro. Where the derivatives only add functionality or user-friendly aspects to puppy, please do not remove system programs or drivers. Be aware, the good name of puppy is in dispute.

But no worries, other Linux versions were not better ..... often worse ... but with a better user features such ....

I tested the following because it seems that users like them!!!

MOBLIN.org

Great user interface, does exactly what general users are looking for, very consistence and users are used to it within 10 minutes…..
Con:
I wasn’t able to save settings on the flashdisk, it wasn’t that simple to install from a windows xp operating system….. even it’s build for systems like HPmini, I didn’t get the wifi connection or even Ethernet running.
Ubuntu NetBook Remix

The user interface is not a direct relative to XP or MacOS, it's more something like buy a new handphone, go ahead and use the functions ... directly accepted
Cons:
The idea was to make the HPmini quicker, but it is a heavy operating system with little performance improvement. Again no ability to save on USBflashdrive as far I know. Quite a few linux knowledge is required.
XPUD.org

The big winner when it comes to performance, ease of installation, and ease of use, my wife was immediately impressed by this beautiful OS. Storing data on the USB did not work, but stored automaticly on the hard disk.
Cons:
It lacks the flexabiliteit structure to go to the linux system, this means that you can install any other programs than those available for xpud, the file manager is too limited and lacking a music player.

Conclusion:
Puppy would be a superb accepted operating system when it would have some derivate development like Ubuntu MID, an easy userinterface with a “under the hood” escape to the original Puppy or Stardust Interface.

Suggestion
Puppylinux is perfect for the netbook en laptop users, as long the complete system could run in memory (mostly between 512Mb and 1Gb nowadays) and run from a memorycard (between 1Gb and 32Gb, like mobile-phone memorycards nowadays).... but they only are able to install puppy from and only from a windows installer, and keep windows on the harddisk because they paid for it Smile.

I am not a programmer and don't even know this is possible but would suggest a structure similar to this:
* In my opinion the basic PUPPYLINUX should not have any applications other than system apps and basic drivers,
* Clever users could help to create a list of specific drivers for by example HP / ACER / TOSHIBA and all others. It could also be possible that users send their selected configuration data after a successful installation automaticly to puppy developers, they are able to create driver packages.
* Derivates should be based on the origional PUPPYLINUX distribution
* Pathware created a perfect installer for UBUNTU with all functionality to make a full functioning USBflash in one program, maybe he would be willing to create a special version for Puppy.



Friendly Regards.....
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 13:41    Post subject:  

Hi there,

This is written from a developer perspective. Smile

There's not much in the way of organization here. There is no corporation behind us like Moblin and Ubuntu have. We're just a bunch of users with varying levels of development skill, helping each other and posting our ideas. I just showed up one day and started contributing. We all have our own ideas of what the "Perfect Puppy" is, and usually the motivation for working is to try to create our own visions of perfection.

I understand your frustration trying to run Puppy on a netbook. I'm hoping the work I am doing will make eventually make Puppy more friendly for all netbooks but at the moment all I can support is the EeePc. The trouble is, netbooks are very new, and generally require bleeding-edge drivers. Keeping the kernel up to date for netbooks is an endless, difficult, and thankless task. It's a lot to ask to have one tiny distro that supports both ancient and bleeding-edge hardware well, and has appropriate software for everybody.

I am willing to modify Puppeee (which already has the features you want) to have drivers for other netbooks. But I would need help from other developers to support it. If I spend any more time working on Puppy my husband will probably divorce me, I'll get fired from my real job, and my health will likely fail due to lack of time to exercise. Wink So, if you know anyone bored and talented, direct them here please.
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hendrikus

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 14:09    Post subject:  

jemimah wrote:
Hi there,

This is written from a developer perspective. Smile

There's not much in the way of organization here. There is no corporation behind us like Moblin and Ubuntu have.

I am willing to modify Puppeee (which already has the features you want) to have drivers for other netbooks. But I would need help from other developers to support it. If I spend any more time working on Puppy my husband will probably divorce me, I'll get fired from my real job, and my health will likely fail due to lack of time to exercise. Wink So, if you know anyone bored and talented, direct them here please.


Thanks for you reaction, be sure... I 100% appreciate all effort the developer put in creating that nice userinterfaces, thats why I wrote this, it's not meant as a complain, but maybe indeed to let the developer organize them selves.... I really like the concept and try to contribute in this way..... because I have not the ability to develop, I tried it... but saw and know how difficult it is to even change a little detail... The problem is that the standard puppy runs great, than you want to choose another userinterface (derivate) suddenly drivers are missing, programs are hanging..... and I don't know how to solf it. stupid me Sad

Yours.... Hendrikus
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 14:54    Post subject:  

I don't think the problem is necessarily lack of organization. Too much organization leads to bureaucracy and bloatware. We're just a little understaffed.

I'm curious what Puplets you tried and what problems you had. If you post specific and thoughtful feedback, it's much more likely the problems will get fixed. Truly, developers and users often see things from very different perspectives. Getting helpful communication from users really makes the job a lot easier.
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TomRhymer

Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 15:46    Post subject:  

I'm not a developer myself. But I don't agree with you on the idea of a simpler user interface. I've tried out Moblin and UNR and rejected them pretty quickly because that kind of simple interface is a bit of a straightjacket. It's a lot more difficult to add programs to UNR other than programs made specifically to fit in with the UNR interface. Moblin is much worse. Intel seems to be trying to make Moblin an IPhone-type setup with the intention of selling apps in the future.

I do agree with some of your comments about derivatives. I have noticed that more and more of the new puplets are minimalist and made to run on older hardware. When I first started with puppy, there were more puplets that added things rather than taking them away. I used to use Fire Hydrant, but it hasn't been updated since before version 4 and I can't use it with my newer netbook.

As far as an installer for USB goes, how about just using Unetbootin? I understand that Ubuntu needs to have an installer to run persistantly from a flash drive, but that's built in to Puppy. Load it to the flash drive, run it, then save as you shut down.
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 16:14    Post subject:  

So which applications do you guys feel are missing from Puppy that you would like out of the box on a netbook?

I'm starting to fatten Puppeee up which will become the base for Fluppy, my general netbook puplet. And I'm always looking for ideas.
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WarMocK


Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 16:23    Post subject:  

Hey there,
I'm glad to see what a "common user" thinks about Linux and stuff. What you are talking about sounds pretty familiar, as it almost matches my POV about what an OS has to provide and what not. For this reason, I started working on my own little puppy project: K-9 Linux. It's more less a barebones with everything you need to get scanners and printers up and running (with the necessary toolset for both the X server and the commandline), then go to the web and download what you actually need. Right now I'm working on a simplified intro guide to Linux, as some people told me that this was something they'd really need for successfully switching to Linux.
As for a simpler interface: "Simple" can be a boon and a bane at the same time. You can provide scripts for daily work the common user does, but when it gets to some serious hacking, a simple gui won't do the trick (you can't add widgets for every combination that's possible with a program), and the only thing automatisation has proven in for by now is to break things and make it more complicated to fix an issue. Simple GUIs for daily work: yes, no questions. But for some heart surgery, users should take a few moments to get rid of their fears about the CLI (after all, it won't bite them, and they don't have to use it all the time Wink) and use it in that puny little specific situation, with the assistance of an experienced linux user or probably even an admin.
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hendrikus

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 20:04    Post subject:  

TomRhymer wrote:
I'm not a developer myself. But I don't agree with you on the idea of a simpler user interface. I've tried out Moblin and UNR and rejected them pretty quickly because that kind of simple interface is a bit of a straightjacket. It's a lot more difficult to add programs to UNR other than programs made specifically to fit in with the UNR interface. Moblin is much worse. Intel seems to be trying to make Moblin an IPhone-type setup with the intention of selling apps in the future.


Minimalism is the hype at this moment, I understand why, due all functionality Google is delivering in their webapplications and the use of SaaS, installed applications are rarely used. People are lazy learn new applications...... indeed, a PC runs like a IPhone, simple, fast and stable has quick acceptance.

Another factor: COOL, I used years ago wNOP to conduct ISO9001 presentation, switching screens between presentations, video and documents, everyone was impressed.... especially when I told that it's running from a flashdisk in full memory.

But as I told, I aether don't like when you don't have an escape to the 'under the hood' operating system, by example stardust puppy.
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hendrikus

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 20:14    Post subject:  

TomRhymer wrote:

As far as an installer for USB goes, how about just using Unetbootin? I understand that Ubuntu needs to have an installer to run persistantly from a flash drive, but that's built in to Puppy. Load it to the flash drive, run it, then save as you shut down.


I use mostly Unetboot, a perfect solution, after I needed a persistant file for Ubuntu derivates I found this installer and just thought how I would like to see an installer specially for PUPPY with a PUPPY Splash screen and the ability to choose drivers (every user knows his PC type), maybe even localisation (language), the derivate of his choice and space he-she use for data.

Ofcourse you could ask the same during the first startup of PUPPY, but what when you have no internet available after the first start-up.
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hendrikus

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 20:28    Post subject:  

WarMocK wrote:
Hey there,
I'm glad to see what a "common user" thinks about Linux and stuff. What you are talking about sounds pretty familiar, as it almost matches my POV about what an OS has to provide and what not. For this reason, I started working on my own little puppy project: K-9 Linux. It's more less a barebones with everything you need to get scanners and printers up and running (with the necessary toolset for both the X server and the commandline), then go to the web and download what you actually need. Right now I'm working on a simplified intro guide to Linux, as some people told me that this was something they'd really need for successfully switching to Linux.
As for a simpler interface: "Simple" can be a boon and a bane at the same time. You can provide scripts for daily work the common user does, but when it gets to some serious hacking, a simple gui won't do the trick (you can't add widgets for every combination that's possible with a program), and the only thing automatisation has proven in for by now is to break things and make it more complicated to fix an issue. Simple GUIs for daily work: yes, no questions. But for some heart surgery, users should take a few moments to get rid of their fears about the CLI (after all, it won't bite them, and they don't have to use it all the time Wink) and use it in that puny little specific situation, with the assistance of an experienced linux user or probably even an admin.


Thanks WarMock, I am totally agree, perfect vision.

Maybe it would be a good idea the split user comments with development comments. long ago i saw an initiative for a design for a new PUPPY website, this was a kind of shop you could download PUPPY, a second section all the 'official' DERIVATES, an third section with SOFTWARE / DRIVERS. But every product has thumbs and a comments / FAQ section for USERS........ similar to download.com I don't know why this website isn't developed further, this would put the comments and suggestions at the right places.
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hendrikus

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb 2010, 21:34    Post subject:  

jemimah wrote:
I don't think the problem is necessarily lack of organization. Too much organization leads to bureaucracy and bloatware. We're just a little understaffed.


Organisation could be a website for users of Netbooks, in my opinion users searching a website to find a PUPEEE, there you could create a simple comments and voting system together with a webshop for downloads.

jemimah wrote:
I'm starting to fatten Puppeee up which will become the base for Fluppy, my general netbook puplet. And I'm always looking for ideas.


Great initiative....... I support it for 100 percent, want me to create the website???

jemimah wrote:
I'm curious what Puplets you tried and what problems you had. If you post specific and thoughtful feedback, it's much more likely the problems will get fixed. Truly, developers and users often see things from very different perspectives. Getting helpful communication from users really makes the job a lot easier.


Very simple: just have a look to your mobile phone......
Fixed icons for:
* Email
local served weboriented CMS / Chrome application shortcut
* Address-book
local served weboriented CMS / Chrome application shortcut
* Agenda
local served weboriented CMS / Chrome application shortcut
* Community
twitter/Facebook / Chrome application shortcut
* Chatting
Pidgin or Weboriented in Chrome application shortcut
* Browser
Chrome (preferable)
* Music / Video / Pictures
a long time ago my programmer has a filemanager in linux,
when you go over the file with your mouse the music or movie
started to play.... I dont know the name of the filemanager,
but I was impressed..... I think the filemanager is important,
selection / search / tumbnails / preview of files are important.
Maybe a media manager instead of a simple filemanager.
Picasa could be great to organize documents, but I think you cant
see or select pdf / word or excel documents, I am sure there
is a linux opensource package who is able to fill this in.
* OpenOffice (Sometimes they need to do some serious stuff Smile )

* Logout menu with:
Shutdown
Sleep
Settings
Under the Hood (back to the Stardust interface)

When possible a complete installation of maximal 512Mb, able to run in memory on systems with 1Gb internal memory.
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Wed 03 Feb 2010, 13:56    Post subject:  

I'm personally not too terribly interested in "the cloud" as a replacement for real applications and local data storage, although I do think Chrome is a really excellent browser. The genius of Puppy is that you can have real applications, and it is still small and fast - although nothing stops you from using the web based applications if you wish.

I am working on an Easy Mode menu/desktop for Puppy - you might like to follow the thread here. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=50563

Puppeee has a dedicated forum:
http://pupweb.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=puppeee but most of the discussion takes place on the Puppeee thread on this forum.

The Puppeee website does need some work. I've been mainly working on the OS, I'll probably make the website nicer soon. http://drop.io/puppeee. Drop.io would be a suitable platform for implementing your website suggestions.
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