Would Puppy be a good choice for a public library?

[vIQleS]

Does anybody think that Puppy Linux would be a good OS for a public access Learning Centre (in a library).

It works a bit like an Internet cafe but it's free...

There's a queue system and a print release station (you have to pay for printing).

Patrons are allowed a max of 2 hour a day ea. Computers are either 1 hours or a 30 min at a time.

Would PL be cheaper? Easier to maintain? Feasible?

Thoughts?

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
What are your requirements?? What kind of system are you running , hardware ect...How many terminals??
As for cheaper, Puppy is free, and runs on OLD hardware, and low upkeep once set up.. How much cheaper than that can you get???
Basically, it looks like all you need is a secure browser, an OS to run it, and a system for timed usage, right???

[Flash]

If it were me, I'd have identical machines, each with lots (2 GB or more) of RAM, a CD ROM and no hard disk drive. I'd remaster Puppy so that it does what you want, then burn lots of identical Puppy live CDs, one for each kiosk or workstation.

CD-R disks can be got for as little as 10 cents apiece, so if something needed to be changed, it wouldn't cost much to replace all the CDs.

[vIQleS]

Hello,
What are your requirements?? What kind of system are you running , hardware ect...How many terminals??

I'm not really. It's all run by the council's IT dept.

The computers are all quite old, but they're (mostly) running fine with XP...

There's about 100, split up between 8 libraries.

Basically, it looks like all you need is a secure browser, an OS to run it, and a system for timed usage, right???

I guess - and office etc.

The booking / print release was one of my main concerns. There's no way to do anything like that built in right? That'd be a cost to get something custom built / modified?

If it were me, I'd have identical machines, each with lots (2 GB or more) of RAM, a CD ROM and no hard disk drive. I'd remaster Puppy so that it does what you want, then burn lots of identical Puppy live CDs, one for each kiosk or workstation.

CD-R disks can be got for as little as 10 cents apiece, so if something needed to be changed, it wouldn't cost much to replace all the CDs.

Until someone needs to use a CD?

And I'm sure someone would eventually start nicking them...

The idea that's been proposed (by a patron) is to give each of the 20k-odd patrons a free flash drive with PL on it... :-s

[vIQleS]

The booking / print release was one of my main concerns. There's no way to do anything like that built in right? That'd be a cost to get something custom built / modified?

Also - what's to stop somone with a modicum of know-how modifying their own CD or flash-drive to bypass the booking / timing system?

[Flash]

If it were me, I'd have identical machines, each with lots (2 GB or more) of RAM, a CD ROM and no hard disk drive. I'd remaster Puppy so that it does what you want, then burn lots of identical Puppy live CDs, one for each kiosk or workstation...

Until someone needs to use a CD?

When booted from the live CD, Puppy loads entirely into RAM (if there's enough RAM; at least 256 MB). After the CD finishes booting, you can remove it from the CD drive and use the drive for other things.

And I'm sure someone would eventually start nicking them...

No doubt. But the CDs are cheap, as I said, and if it's a real problem you could go around and collect them after the machines have booted, or check them out to each patron who wanted to use a computer.

Also - what's to stop someone with a modicum of know-how modifying their own CD or flash-drive to bypass the booking / timing system?

The only way I can think of is to disable booting from CD and USB in the BIOS of all computers your patrons might use, then boot Puppy from a central server via Ethernet. If you allow your patrons to use a computer that can boot from CD or USB (or floppy, for that matter,) anything is possible. The advantage of booting from a Puppy CD is that the operating system is completely reinstalled by rebooting.

[GreyShadow]

How much time are you willing to give your library patrons to teach how to use Puppy?
I work at a public library so I have some experience with a few issues you will face going in the Win vs Linux for public access computing. You may want to look at Userful...(Canada)

[sunburnt]

Most libraries I`ve been to use a web browser for the interface.
I don`t see anyone having trouble with Firefox, Mozilla, or Opera.

Client PCs can PXE boot Puppy from a server running Puppy.
NO mechanical H.D.s or CDs/DVDs needed on the client PCs..!!!
This makes the client PCs real reliable, IC chips work forever ( almost...).

Hardware is pretty reliable, the software on the H.D. isn`t.
Data on the H.D is what gets viruses or scrambled and needs fixing.
If the server is the only PC with a H.D., then way less IT work..!
If the system`s setup properly it`s far less hackable, even more reliable.

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
sunburnt,
I agree completely...A basic, lightweight Puppy system has everything needed, plus, with "cloud computing" nearly everything can be done online..
Maybe just a browser and a link to the "Puppy Web Desktop"...

[Colonel Panic]

Thanks for this thread and the mention of Userful, which I'm looking at seriously. Don't forget though that our own ecomoney has produced a Puppy derivative which has proven its worth in group computing systems; EcoPup (there are a number of threads about it here).

[raffy]

Try to download puppylib.iso from here:
http://puppylib.open-lib.net/

EDIT: Nope, the links don't work for me, so I uploaded the ISO here: minipc.org/downloads/puppylib.iso (262 MB)

[Colonel Panic]

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I have to admit I hadn't heard of Puppylib before though (do its devs post here?).

[sunburnt]

I always thought there should be a concerted effort by the Puppy community to make
" Special Purpose Puppies " that are built to be small and do a specific task very well.
A list of obvious possibilities for " embedded Puppy " usage follows:
1) Stand alone music player
2) Stand alone media player ( movies and music )
3) Stand alone web browser and plugins
4) Stand alone rescue OS ( boot from: CD-DVD, USB )
5) Various types of servers ( PXE, LAAMP, SMB, NFS, Web, media, etc. )

The above OSs and the ones below all could be PXE booted so the client PCs have no drives.
4) Kiosk info desks
5) Library setup
6) Internet Cafe
7) Call center / Support desks / Sales desks

[ken geometrics]

[... snip ...]

And I'm sure someone would eventually start nicking them...

I just had a thought:

If these are desk top PCs and not lap tops this may work. On such PCs the USB connections on the back panel are usually on a short cable up from the mother board. You could undo the mounting hardware and pull this connection inside the box. This would let you plug a memory stick into it and close the box to keep it hidden.

Using "gparted" shrink the partition down so that there is no room left after the install is done. This will prevent people from storing a personal file onto the hidden stick.

Another thought:

This one would require making some circuit boards but I will fling it out there for folks to consider.

The BIOS of a PC has a thing that was intended for a game cartridge like device. The hard disk drive on the PC-XT used this to install the needed code during boot up. The PC only had floppies, no hard drive. The XT had some code in a prom on the disk controller card that added the "C" drive. It would not be hard to take advantage of this to make a card that caused Puppy from a Flash chip to be the only thing that the PC could boot up. The PC wouldn't even have a hard drive. There would be no way to make it boot from CD or USB or floppy because that part of the BIOS would be bypassed.

[sunburnt]

Too much effort! Just PXE boot from a Puppy server and have no storage on the client PCs.
For a stand alone PC, use a flash card in a drive emulator board attached to the HD controller.

[PupiUserXxX]

puppy really is good for chat / networking, however...
and this is a little funny... there would likely be a lot of
embarrased students if librarians started reading some of
the comments showing up on irc channel !

last I checked, puppy installed with default chat link to the
freenode / puppylinux channel... not student friendly a
lot of the time.

Does anybody think that Puppy Linux would be a good OS for a public access Learning Centre (in a library).

It works a bit like an Internet cafe but it's free...

There's a queue system and a print release station (you have to pay for printing).

Patrons are allowed a max of 2 hour a day ea. Computers are either 1 hours or a 30 min at a time.

Would PL be cheaper? Easier to maintain? Feasible?

Thoughts?

[nooby]

one important consideration for a public library is that the distro can reconnect when it lose connection with internet.

So one need to use a version that reconnect or never lose the connection.

puppy 431 std when I use it lose connection maybe once 20 minutes and the only way to reconnect is to go through a hoop of this

Menu, Setup, Network Wizard, Eth0, DHCP, ok and save it.

They can not expect that the Staff should run around and do these things or the visitors to do it by themselves.

[GreyShadow]

This is the nub of the problem...library staff have other duties to attend to rather than baby sitting the public computer stations. That is why Userful is a good Linux solution, it also has a print control function too.

Not to put down all the cool things that one can do with Puppy and Linux in general.

Just the reality of a US public library...staff and resources are stretched thin these days. This is where good volunteers can come in and help serve the general public, if you have a few hours or days most libraries would welcome bright and interested help.

[jeditalian]

i think it would be perfect. if all systems are identical, (as is common in many public libraries) you could set up one flash drive to automatically set up the internet/display/printer/etc. for all of them. and go around booting them one at a time. or you could do it with several flash drives and if none of the systems were identical, number the flash drives, put them in each system in the morning for booting, then remove them and lock them all in a drawer or whatever. no hard drives=less noise. if the systems have an internal usb port, then you could leave a flash drive inside them to be used as swap, but that opens the door to people saving things and screwing things up. if the systems are good, with ample amounts of RAM, they should be able to go all day running completely from ram, but if they only have like 256mb you will have lots of problems.
i run my laptop at night on puppy linux, so the hard drive isn't spinning, and it creates less heat.
i think puppy linux is perfect for the library. last library i went to required like 30 minute time-outs while they restored individual computers back to their original state, everyday. that could be reduced to less than 5 minutes by shutdown/reboot and booting from a puppy usb with preset configurations tailored to the library network/computers. with the added plus of letting librarygoers install puppy to USB so they can bring it home and 'fix' their computers with dead hard drives/viruses.
users could bring their own flash drives, or buy them from the library. the library i went to sold things like headphones, floppy disks..

[Colonel Panic]

This is the nub of the problem...library staff have other duties to attend to rather than baby sitting the public computer stations. That is why Userful is a good Linux solution, it also has a print control function too.

Not to put down all the cool things that one can do with Puppy and Linux in general.

Just the reality of a US public library...staff and resources are stretched thin these days. This is where good volunteers can come in and help serve the general public, if you have a few hours or days most libraries would welcome bright and interested help.

That's true in spades where I live in the UK as well, we don't even have counter staff any more. The libraries are all self-service, you check your own books in and out using RFID machines.

I like the look of Userful but the company's coy about quoting prices
and I'd like to see them give at least a sample quote for, say, a server and 10 desktop workstations on their website.